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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Combat Readiness  (Read 108310 times)

NikolaiLev

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2013, 01:12:29 PM »

An interesting read, and I definitely like the opportunity for even more strategic play in the Campaign.  However, one thing about this worries me: how much RNG will this throw into the game?

RNG is generally not a very fun thing to deal with (think situations where you shout in frustration because one of your ships just happened to malfunction).  If the percentages are low, this can introduce instances where the few times it happens are especially frustrating, and if they're too high, it feels like you're fighting the game rather than the opponent.

So, I'd like to encourage ideas that avoid RNG gameplay rather than a percent chance for a ship to fail.  Sub-optimal performance (debuff to its stats) is fine, because it's always on and you can account for it.

On the flip side, random events can be interesting, especially if the player is made well aware they're at risk for it (much like the Accidents system).  So, at the very least, I'd like to see a CR % in the battle, to make sure that frigate you're sending into battle isn't actually CR 5% and will crap out on you in a moment's notice.
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PCCL

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2013, 01:15:36 PM »

personally I think most ships should lose CR over time, (maybe more self-sufficient ships can hold out longer or indefinitely, like the apogee or venture or odessey) having a living, flying logistics nightmare like the paragon fighting indefinitely doesn't feel right...

also I think the blog said something about costing supplies to field ships but isn't very clear about it. How does it work? Are FP a thing of the past? What about missions and things of that nature?

also how moddable will this system be?

EDIT: also how does this interact with the AI and AI spawned fleets?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 01:58:07 PM by gunnyfreak »
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Chancellor Meatsteak

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2013, 01:17:18 PM »

I'm not sure I like how it effects frigates, either. It seems a bit arbitrary that frigates, and only frigates, just lose CR over time in combat, and also severely inhibits their ability to function as escorts, sure you could switch them out mid-combat but if you do that you might as well just use a destroyer.

Fast attack craft like the Hyperion and Tempest are overpowered not because they never get hit (which would necessitate a time limit of some sort) but because what damage they take is done to the shields and can just be vented off later, giving them effectively unlimited endurance in battle. Meanwhile fast but unshielded ships like the Hound will have to eventually retreat because they take damage to non-regenerating hull and armor, and relatively slower ships like the Brawler can be forced into a situation where they have to drop shields while under fire; so giving either of them a time based limit is unnecessary.

With that in mind, why not make it so that CR instead starts to drop after a certain amount of damage is done to the shields? Ships that are too effective at retreating can simply be given a low threshold before CR starts to drop, limiting the amount of attack runs they can do at peak efficiency without preventing them from being kept back to be used when needed. Ships made for the line-of-battle on the other hand can be given a very high threshold allowing them to brawl with the enemy without having to worry much about CR. By adding hullmods that affect the threshold then you can make so that variants can be designed that have a higher threshold for escorts or have increased speed at the cost of a lower threshold for fast attack ships.
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Faiter119

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2013, 01:24:21 PM »

I love it, seems like a great way to balance the game. Keep this up Alex! Amazing as always.
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Vind

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2013, 01:25:16 PM »

    Frigates with a time limit on effectiveness in combat is strange, hope this will work out.  I can imagine ship needs ammo/energy cells, oxygen and repair materials for repairs after combat but simply degrading ship after time limit even then ship does not received any damage is strange to say the least. Only thing which comes close to explanation is crew fatigue after some time in combat so ships with high crew count will fight more effectively over time. AI must retreat immediately if the fleet cant catch frigates. I cant imagine player will pursue and fight 20+ battles to kill some slow cruisers or battleships because its boring and definitely not fun.
    In the hands of AI frigates will be at a disadvantage because AI cant aggressively attack within time limit.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 01:42:47 PM by Vind »
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Cazakatari

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2013, 01:27:52 PM »

I have to say your ideas and musings about the game always impress me Alex.  Keep up the great work :D
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FloW

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2013, 01:33:35 PM »

Just had an idea: How about another hullmod? Some sort of Nanobots/Service Robots that either delay the CR reduction or help with replenishing CR. Maybe increase the maximum of CR that a ship can have?

Also: have you thought about letting high-tech weapons influence CR? Or will it be influenced by weapons at all?
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2013, 01:56:40 PM »

Hmm. I get what you're saying about carriers, it makes sense mechanics-wise, but seems a little arbitrary - after all, the specialized equipment carriers have seems unrelated to, say, letting the power junctions inside a frigate cool off. It'd be tough to sell this visually in way that made it clear what's going on.

Arbitrary? Not more so than CR degradation only affecting frigates ;)

Graphic wise I had no problem with a flow of drones, a beam or a retractable bridge between a carrier and a nearby frigate. Power junctions don't cool off then, they are replaced with fresh ones from the carrier (maybe at extra high costs). Would make a nice target, too.

Anyway, I think the frigate mechanic needs a lot of thought/trying out. Aside from the already mentioned issues it encourages some other "boring but effective" tactics, for example to stay in close defensive formation without much firing until the enemy frigates have run out of CR.


BTW, If ship-to-ship boarding is ever introduced in some form, I think it will really profit from CR. Details in the thread in suggestions.


Also: have you thought about letting high-tech weapons influence CR? Or will it be influenced by weapons at all?

Ion weapons might do just that.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 02:20:48 PM by Gothars »
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Brainbread

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 02:01:25 PM »

I'm wondering how CR will work with Auto-complete. Will it make it unnattractive choice when its a clear win (as in, will it deploy as much as it can to get an assured victory)? In any case, i'm excited for being able to use Frigates that aren't Tempests after early-game. The rest of them feel too squishy and slow when capital ships start getting into play.
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FloW

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 02:02:20 PM »

...

Also: have you thought about letting high-tech weapons influence CR? Or will it be influenced by weapons at all?

Ion weapons might do just that.

What I meant: Will expensive weapons take longer to regenerate? I imagine a small PD to be back in action rather fast, compared to an AM Blaster or even a HIL/Tachyon Lance.
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icepick37

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2013, 02:11:27 PM »

I like it!

Frigates will be getting some buffs to compensate for this remember (if they even need it).

I'd like to see frigates get their cr back up much faster. Since they are so small. Though maybe that is easily accomplished anyway with % of crew.

Anywho, can't wait to see how it shakes out. It sounds great so far.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2013, 02:26:00 PM »

What I meant: Will expensive weapons take longer to regenerate? I imagine a small PD to be back in action rather fast, compared to an AM Blaster or even a HIL/Tachyon Lance.

Ah, I see. Since the malfunction mechanic is based on the EMP/weapon fire induced offline mechanic the duration will likely only be dependent on slot size.
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Sproginator

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2013, 02:27:01 PM »

Please don't make us have to purchase ammo though, I hate that in ship games, "Aww sweet can't wait to finally take on this fleet!" *goes into battle**realises he has no ammo* "FUUUUUUUUU..." *gets killed in 6 seconds flat*
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2013, 02:33:11 PM »

Quote
Hmm. I get what you're saying about carriers, it makes sense mechanics-wise, but seems a little arbitrary - after all, the specialized equipment carriers have seems unrelated to, say, letting the power junctions inside a frigate cool off. It'd be tough to sell this visually in way that made it clear what's going on. Kind of reminds me of munitions ships, actually. Neat idea, but kind of clunky-seeming in practice

What about assigning this role to Freighters?

Maybe Firgates get worse in Combat because they run out of supplies and every repair is just jury rigged (and they can't "turn" the multi purpose supplies into what they need while they are in combat)
This means Freighters could get a new system wich allows them to drop a supply crate (3 times per battle?)
Once the Frigate picks up the Crate, it stops moving and can't do so for a certain while and after that it gets some CR points back and can head back into the battle

All in all, right now I'm thinking that this is all best kept in the campaign layer. It's just trying to cram stuff into combat that it's not really meant for, not on those timescales. And getting the AI to intelligently handle this is probably more than what I want to bite off.


An interesting read, and I definitely like the opportunity for even more strategic play in the Campaign.  However, one thing about this worries me: how much RNG will this throw into the game?

RNG is generally not a very fun thing to deal with (think situations where you shout in frustration because one of your ships just happened to malfunction).  If the percentages are low, this can introduce instances where the few times it happens are especially frustrating, and if they're too high, it feels like you're fighting the game rather than the opponent.

So, I'd like to encourage ideas that avoid RNG gameplay rather than a percent chance for a ship to fail.  Sub-optimal performance (debuff to its stats) is fine, because it's always on and you can account for it.

On the flip side, random events can be interesting, especially if the player is made well aware they're at risk for it (much like the Accidents system).  So, at the very least, I'd like to see a CR % in the battle, to make sure that frigate you're sending into battle isn't actually CR 5% and will crap out on you in a moment's notice.

Ah, I figured someone would bring this up :) I think in this particular case randomness is not a problem. It's not something you'll have to deal with all the time, because you really shouldn't be deploying ships in this state unless you're desperate.

And, you *can* manage it somewhat - stopping engine use when it's partially flamed out, saving a weapon shot for a critical moment to make sure you can get it off, etc.

Will it be frustrating sometimes? I'm sure it will. But I think it'll also bring a degree of tension to the proceedings, which is... well, good.

With that in mind, why not make it so that CR instead starts to drop after a certain amount of damage is done to the shields? Ships that are too effective at retreating can simply be given a low threshold before CR starts to drop, limiting the amount of attack runs they can do at peak efficiency without preventing them from being kept back to be used when needed. Ships made for the line-of-battle on the other hand can be given a very high threshold allowing them to brawl with the enemy without having to worry much about CR. By adding hullmods that affect the threshold then you can make so that variants can be designed that have a higher threshold for escorts or have increased speed at the cost of a lower threshold for fast attack ships.

Wouldn't really work across the board. The "effective but boring" strategy would then involve waiting out not only enemy LRMs, but also their ammo. So, ok, that wouldn't work vs high-tech ships, but low-tech ships would still be susceptible.

But, yeah, having hullmods play with the CR deterioration somewhat would probably be a good idea.

I can imagine ship needs ammo/energy cells, oxygen and repair materials for repairs after combat but simply degrading ship after time limit even then ship does not received any damage is strange to say the least. Only thing which comes close to explanation is crew fatigue after some time in combat so ships with high crew count will fight more effectively over time.

It's part that, and part just frigates being smaller ships that can't indefinitely stand the extra stress combat-level power and system usage puts on. Power conduits and CPU cores overheat or blow out, that sort of thing. Even the main reactor might be unable to to put out the required level of power for more than a little while. Or, perhaps radiation shielding isn't up to par.

Really, there are many possible reasons, but the crux of it is that frigates (and possibly some other ships) just have too much stuff and people crammed into a relatively small volume, and combat conditions force ALL of those things to work at the same time. And after a while, things start to give.

AI must retreat immediately if the fleet cant catch frigates. I cant imagine player will pursue and fight 20+ battles to kill some slow cruisers or battleships because its boring and definitely not fun.

I'm not sure I understand, can you clarify? Fighting 20+ battles wouldn't be an option anyway, as CR would run out on both sides after two or three. But, this is heading into "next blog post" territory.

Arbitrary? Not more so than CR degradation only affecting frigates ;)

Fair enough, though something like the Medusa *might* get hit with that, too.

Anyway, I think the frigate mechanic needs a lot of thought/trying out. Aside from the already mentioned issues it encourages some other "boring but effective" tactics, for example to stay in close defensive formation without much firing until the enemy frigates have run out of CR.

Hmm. On the whole, I'd rather have that than kiting an entire fleet. This strikes me as a valid tactic, but the end result might not be what you'd like. Unless they had backup, the frigates would just retreat after a while and disengage from your fleet. Again, "next blog post" :)

I'm wondering how CR will work with Auto-complete. Will it make it unnattractive choice when its a clear win (as in, will it deploy as much as it can to get an assured victory)? In any case, i'm excited for being able to use Frigates that aren't Tempests after early-game. The rest of them feel too squishy and slow when capital ships start getting into play.

Good question; still working it out. I'm not all that sure auto-resolve is necessary right now, if there's still incentive to fight a challenging battle even if your fleet outmatches the enemy. But, yeah, still working on that.

What I meant: Will expensive weapons take longer to regenerate? I imagine a small PD to be back in action rather fast, compared to an AM Blaster or even a HIL/Tachyon Lance.

The time it takes for CR to regenerate *may* end up being based on the OP used in the loadout. Emphasis on "may".

Please don't make us have to purchase ammo though, I hate that in ship games, "Aww sweet can't wait to finally take on this fleet!" *goes into battle**realises he has no ammo* "FUUUUUUUUU..." *gets killed in 6 seconds flat*

You'll have to purchase at least 10 separate times of autocannon rounds and painstakingly match them to the right weapons in a QTE. Each failure will auto-deduct 10% CR and will require faster responses in the next attempt.

And don't even get me started on the different types of HE ammo or the logistics involved in safeguarding antimatter rounds.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 02:39:26 PM by Alex »
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Sproginator

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 02:41:20 PM »

I'm going to cry now, please excuse me....
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