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Author Topic: Gradual map borders  (Read 15340 times)

Gothars

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Gradual map borders
« on: January 17, 2013, 12:36:21 PM »

 
I thought maybe gradual map borders might be better than the current abrupt borders. Could be realized with a delayed push back effect that gets gradually stronger (in space and time) instead of the sudden maximum push back (+ popup) we have now.
To not interfere with fleeing the effect had to be delayed. That means ships can pass through without speed loss as long as they head straight ahead with full speed (maybe delay time is max speed related?). If you stay in the border zone longer the push back grows stronger and eventually you are forced out of it. Closer to the real boarder the effect will grow fastest. Leaving the boarder zone resets the effect for the ship.



Some advantages:
- Not the annoying pop ups all the time when fighting close to the border
- Instead a text warning "leaving combat zone" that does not interrupt combat flow (pop up at the very end)
- Doesn't limit movement when fighting close to the border. It makes no sense to corner someone in open space, does it?
- Allows to maneuver behind ships that have their back on the map border
- The feeling of a cage match would be mitigated

I have no idea in how far the combat map properties are an integral part of the game engine, so maybe this is pointless.

Anyway, thoughts?
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ArkAngel

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 12:56:34 PM »

I like the idea but it has to end somewhere. And where it ends you can still pin the ship :/ not sure if this would fix the issue. It would help of course, but I never had issues with it myself. I rarely fight near the borders.
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Pendragon

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 03:40:03 PM »

I can see the need for it but I don't know if this is the right direction. My concern would be that this could effect handling of craft and often, particularly in the early game when you are primarily fielding fighters or weaker destroyers handling plays a big part in whether a fight is won or lost. You could possibly just have a section near the border where a message appears stating you are leaving without actually interrupting play. Then if you remain in that area for, say, five seconds or so you automatically leave.

firstattak1

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 09:33:17 PM »

Meh, i really dont see this really needed, to me it makes it harder to escape, and easier to kill the AI if they are escaping. Unless im reading it wrong, seems like a setback more that something helpful
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BillyRueben

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 09:48:36 PM »

I also don't think that it is really needed. Not so much because it is a bad idea, but more because I really just don't see the current map boundary as something that needs to be fixed. 95% of the fighting I do isn't close enough to the border to have any affect on the gameplay.

Removing the "Are you sure you want to retreat?" textbox would be nice as it is annoying. If I want to retreat from a fight, I'll fly off the edge of the screen myself.
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Gothars

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 10:13:33 PM »

Removing that box is my main motivation with this suggestion. I personally encounter it a lot, for example if I out-range the enemy and fly backwards to keep it that way. Or if I try to intercept a fleeing enemy. Or at least it seems a lot because it's annoying.

Just removing it would not work, since there are situations where I accidentally cross the boarder with high speed, I would not want to retreat then by default.

Mhh.. how about just delaying it a bit, so it doesn't appear if your first pixel touches the border, but only the moment you're completely out if sight?
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ArkAngel

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 05:51:52 AM »

That makes sence to me.
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firstattak1

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 07:17:22 AM »

Ya that seems like a better idea, I know what you coming from and seems like a good idea, but has sone gameplay problems sadly.
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Gothars

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 07:31:36 AM »

But that would have the problem that you could have fights at the border where you don't see half of your ship for some time. Not pretty.

Which brings us back to a time delayed push back effect... only with a much smaller area with depth = ship length.
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Hyph_K31

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 10:14:36 AM »

I like the idea of soft battlefield borders. Aside from getting rid of the what is currently, IMO, a bad mechanic it'll also allow the battlefield to assume a much more natural shape, I,e; a circle. To me a square sensor range makes less than no sense.

So that's a plus one from me.
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Sordid

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 10:58:12 AM »

I agree that the hard borders should be removed, but I don't think this is the way to do it. I don't see why there should be any borders at all, to be honest. There's an old fan-made Star Trek game called Final War 2. It's basically the same thing as Starfarer, top-down space combat. Thing is, the battlefields in that are infinite, you can fly your ships hundreds of kilometers apart and the game will keep track of them. So to run away you have to put a certain distance between yourself and the enemy. That means that the enemy has to be either slower than you or preoccupied by fighting someone else. If the enemy is faster and intent on pursuing you, you simply can't run away. IMO Starfarer should have a similar system.
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firstattak1

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 12:18:23 PM »

^^^^
This sounds like a cool idea. But would Alex really want to recode something like that? Not sure how code works but wouldn't this be a big change
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Sordid

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 01:08:53 PM »

Definitely. But it would be worth it, IMO.
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Alex

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 09:51:24 AM »

Hmm. First of all, I readily grant that the dialog about whether you want to retreat is annoying :)

I'm not sure whether expanding the area where being near a border affects gameplay (i.e. via gradual pushback) is a good idea, though. The Map border isn't the kind of mechanic you really want to build on, but rather want to keep as unobtrusive as possible - it's there for housekeeping reasons, not because anyone actually wants it or is excited about it. With that in mind, I'm definitely open to suggestions for how to make it more unobtrusive.

As to removing borders altogether, I don't think that's practical. If you consider in detail how things would play out (or, indeed, mod in a very large map for small, no-objective engagements), I think you'll start to see some of the problems. Just one example: what's likely to happen is for a few clumps of smaller combats to drift away from each other - leading to a situation where it either takes you minutes to move from one clump to another (once the battle there is finished), or to where you couldn't catch up at all due to being in a slower ship.

Then there are some nuts-and-bolts difficulties in having something actually be unbounded - not insurmountable, but not something I'm inclined to pursue, given that I think it's going to cause more problems than it solves. Conceptually, having map borders doesn't bother me - the way I think of it is ships retreating off it simply engage their travel drive, and thus can't be caught up to.

In practice, yeah, that dialog box is an annoyance, and being able to corner ships isn't exactly good. But, having objectives means that battles tend to take place away from borders, so the actual gameplay impact is reduced. As I mentioned earlier, I'm open to other ideas for further reducing it - without introducing other issues, though :)
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Sordid

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Re: Gradual map borders
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2013, 01:10:07 PM »

As to removing borders altogether, I don't think that's practical. If you consider in detail how things would play out (or, indeed, mod in a very large map for small, no-objective engagements), I think you'll start to see some of the problems. Just one example: what's likely to happen is for a few clumps of smaller combats to drift away from each other - leading to a situation where it either takes you minutes to move from one clump to another (once the battle there is finished), or to where you couldn't catch up at all due to being in a slower ship.

Couldn't you adjust the AI to make sure that wouldn't happen?

Quote
Then there are some nuts-and-bolts difficulties in having something actually be unbounded - not insurmountable, but not something I'm inclined to pursue, given that I think it's going to cause more problems than it solves. Conceptually, having map borders doesn't bother me - the way I think of it is ships retreating off it simply engage their travel drive, and thus can't be caught up to.

Again I'm reminded of Final War 2. Fleeing in that game was accomplished by actually engaging travel drives (i.e. warp) and putting distance between you and the enemy. Map borders are an infinitely more clunky and inelegant solution. Starfarer is so much more advanced than that ancient game that I guess I'm just a bit disappointed that in this particular respect it seems to have gone backwards.

(For anyone interested, you can get it here: http://www.finalwar2.wz.cz/downloads.htm It's a weird mishmash of Czech and English, but it's not too complicated to figure out.)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 01:14:16 PM by Sordid »
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