Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Anubis-class Cruiser (12/20/24)

Author Topic: Ship Information When Refitting  (Read 4092 times)

MadMattH

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Ship Information When Refitting
« on: January 22, 2013, 03:13:01 PM »

I would like to have all of the information about a ship available in the refitting screen like the information that shows up when you hover on a ship on the Fleet screen.  I was just noticing that stuff like shield arc and such aren't on the refit screen.
Logged

zakastra

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 03:20:30 PM »

Hover your mouse over the top right corner, its all there except for the fleet point value
Logged
Oh DRM, bane of the carrier captain...

MadMattH

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 06:10:11 PM »

Well I was more referring to the big amount of open space that is right there above the ship.  I just think it should all be right there in the open while you are modifying your ship, no hover over needed.
Logged

BillyRueben

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 08:15:16 PM »

I don't think that is needed. After a little bit of time you can guesstimate your ship's stats, and having that much information on the refit screen all the time can be overwhelming. The most important stuff is there, and everything else you can get if you need it.
Logged

MadMattH

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2013, 12:08:21 PM »

It's overwhelming, but you can memorise it?  Really? 
All I'm saying is you shouldn't have to look it up or guesstimate.  It should be right there for you.  What's the point of having the information, but not having it right where you can use it?
Logged

BillyRueben

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 01:49:35 PM »

You don't need to memorize it. Over time you just learn things like the Hound has a great amount of storage for a frigate, the Onslaught has a 180 degree frontal shield, ect. The important numbers are already there on the refit screen.
Logged

MadMattH

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2013, 04:22:48 PM »

What do you think memorization is? And what about somebody new to the game that doesn't have that stuff memorized?  How are they supposed to know?  A brand new player won't even know what a Hound is much less how much storage it's got. It's clear that an experienced player doesn't have to look the stuff up, but not everyone is that experienced at the game.  I'm glad you mentioned shield arc because that's one of the "important numbers" that it doesn't show you on the refit screen without having to hover over something.  If it can be modified from the refit screen, that information should be shown without needing to hover over stuff.  The information is obviously already there to be had and if it's "overwhelming" to have it all on one screen, then how overwhelming would it be to a new player who has no idea of where to look? Why do you not consider the information to be overwhelming when presented elsewhere in the exact same format as I'm suggesting to have shown directly on the refit screen? Why would it be so much harder to understand if shown there instead of a hover box?  Why not just have the same information box that is shown when hovering over the bar in the upper right of the refit screen, in the same layout, only on the refit screen itself?  I mean it's not like it's secret information or something and they obviously want you to have access to it.  It just doesn't need the extra step of hovering over a number bar or switching to another screen to get it. 

A scenario for you:
Imagine you are a new player, you have just captured your first ship, but it is badly damaged.  There are a bunch of weapons that you can see on the model of the ship in the refit screen, but what are they?  Why is there not a simple list on that screen?  Oh, you conclude after some experimenting that you have to hover over each weapon individually to find out what they are and their stats.  Even when you figure out you're supposed to hover over the unlabeled blue bar with a number in it there is no weapon list.  There is however an equipment list, but when you change them only a couple (sometimes none) of the numbers on this screen change.  AH HA! You discover that if you change the equipment then go up and hover over the blue number bar it shows what numbers the equipment changes (sometimes).  If only there were a way to have all of this handy information in real-time without having to stop what you're doing to go hover over some blue bar......hmmmm.
Logged

PerturbedPug

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 04:33:05 PM »

I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill here MadMatt. Whem I started out, I was to figure out the stats pretty quickly by hovering over the OP bar, it's really not that hard.

EDIT: I forgot to say that the game should probably tell you about being able to see the stats this way.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 04:46:50 PM by SpainardSlayer »
Logged

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3883
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 04:43:14 PM »

As someone who has played extensively and wasn't aware you could get at this info in the refit screen at all, I'll have to second MadMattH's suggestion.

It may be just a figurative molehill, but it's an annoying one that's easy to trip over.  Saying you don't need the info displayed is kindof like saying you could play starfarer with all the text blurred and unreadable - it may be technically true, since you could go look up weapon & ship stats in the data files, but that doesn't mean it's something the game should make you do.
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

MadMattH

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 04:59:23 PM »

It's not really hard, but it is obscuring what should be obvious.  In my previous reply to Billy I was being facetious, but I'm not the one saying that the information is overwhelming afterall.  I agree that you can learn it pretty quickly, I'm not even saying that it's hard to do, but I think that if it were just presented right there in the open that there wouldn't be anything to have to figure out in the first place.  The other part is that they already show you some information on the screen without having to do anything, why not all of the relevant information?  And again, I submit the question:  If the information is not overwhelming in one place what suddenly makes it overwhelming when presented in the place you most need it?
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 25045
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2013, 05:21:48 PM »

Thanks for your feedback!

Well... there's nowhere near enough room on that screen for all that info - try it out with an Onslaught or a Conquest, zoom in, and see how much space is left. The upper left - which looks empty now - is also being reserved for some future stuff.

I readily grant that mousing over the OP bar is unintuitive. However, most of the stats there (that aren't already directly on the refit screen) hardly change - the main ones that come to mind are shield arc and shield efficiency. I'll see about adding the efficiency and maybe shield arc to that screen, but aside from that, there's just no way to fit it all without creating so much clutter (and/or going down in font size a lot) that it'd be counter-productive.

Imagine you are a new player, you have just captured your first ship, but it is badly damaged.  There are a bunch of weapons that you can see on the model of the ship in the refit screen, but what are they?  ...  Oh, you conclude after some experimenting that you have to hover over each weapon individually to find out what they are and their stats.

Honestly, if that's how it happens, I'm perfectly happy - the player experimented with the UI and learned how to use it to do what they want. That means the UI is working as intended.

The other part is that they already show you some information on the screen without having to do anything, why not all of the relevant information?

I think I more or less answered this above, but just to be perfectly clear - because it doesn't fit. Not nicely, and not without adding a lot of clutter. And there are quite a few pieces of information that just don't matter that much when you're refitting - certainly not enough to see in real time - so they didn't make the cut. (Again, shield efficiency and arc probably should have made it, and the tooltip should probably go on something a lot more obvious - maybe a nice big question mark in the upper right corner, or some such.)

You really just can't display absolutely everything - there's always that one more bit of info you could add. Ultimately, the UI has to make some decisions about what's most important when, and only so many things can be given prime screen real estate at the same time before they all get lost in the clutter - which is a big issue for someone learning the UI.


That's another aspect of this - for a new player, it's easy to be overwhelmed by too much information. (Yes, you get all of it on a tooltip - but that's the tooltip being overwhelming, not the refit UI that they have to use. If it's too much to take in, they just close the tooltip and trust the simpler refit UI to call out what's actually important. As they gain expertise in using the UI, they both need the info in the tooltip less and are capable of finding that info when they do need it.

On the flip side, if the data is displayed all at once, the new player is overwhelmed, while the expert suffers from unneeded clutter. That's really a larger point that I think applies to UI design in general. Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble a bit, so I'll stop :)
Logged

MadMattH

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 05:29:59 PM »

I think I rambled enough for all of us. 
Quote
I'll see about adding the efficiency and maybe shield arc to that screen, but aside from that, there's just no way to fit it all without creating so much clutter (and/or going down in font size a lot) that it'd be counter-productive.
I'd be fine with just those two changes really.  I freely admit my addiction to minutiae in games. 
Logged

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3883
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 05:39:39 PM »

Shield arc is actually the big one that I miss out on - it's vitally important to be able to know, for example, that installing front shields on a Conquest will - even with extended shields - simply not give enough coverage to be worth it, while several other hulls (like the Aurora) take to front shields just fine.
Whereas there's very little that has an effect on shield efficiency - really just hardened shields, and the effects of that are intuitive enough to not need any sort of special display.

It might actually be worthwhile to simply display the ship with shields up (if it has shields)?  Would certainly entertain me to have omni shields showing up in that screen & spinning to track the mouse...
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Lucian Greymark

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
    • View Profile
Re: Ship Information When Refitting
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2013, 12:07:19 AM »

It has annoyed me in the past when i've had to recheck shield arc bu that's a minor thing, perhaps have extra info in a list format optional to the left of the ship and make the ships in fleet list smaller?
Logged