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Author Topic: Shift key  (Read 7291 times)

Pu239

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Shift key
« on: December 03, 2012, 11:04:50 AM »

I'm having a great time with the alpha and can't wait to see the campaign continue to develop!

While playing there are two things about shift key usage in combat that have been bothering me. The ship will not turn to cursor with shift alone, only with shift+A or shift+D. This is really awkward when I want to use the mouse to aim fixed weapons since I will often only be intermittently using lateral thrust which then causes the ship's turning to only intermittently track the mouse. I don't see any other reason I would be pressing shift in combat other than to turn the ship to cursor.

It seems like shift should be a toggle rather than a hold for effect. Either I need to face shields and ship differently or I don't but whether or not I need to control these separately doesn't usually change from split second to split second, though it may change several times during a battle. For some ship setups this may end with holding the shift key down for the entire battle which is really, really annoying.

Please make the shifted control mode turn to cursor regardless of lateral thruster state and add an option for shift to be a toggle instead of a hold for effect key.
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Thaago

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 11:08:18 AM »

One work around is to hold shift and just tap A or D - the ship then keeps rotating to face as long as you hold shift down. Its a bit of a pain though, so +1 to this suggestion!

Oh, and welcome to the forums!
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Alex

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 11:10:08 AM »

Hi!

You don't need to keep holding A or D - it's enough to hold down shift, then tap either A or D, and the ship will continue to turn towards the mouse as long as you keep holding shift down. Shift is also used to toggle autofire for the various groups, btw - so I don't think having it be a toggle would be a good idea.

Edit: ninja'ed by Thaago...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 11:14:06 AM by Alex »
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xenoargh

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 11:11:47 AM »

Still think it should be Caps Lock, or another key entirely; I've switched the behavior (A/D is now the turn-to behavior) but I'd really rather just have a toggle, as I rarely use the default behavior.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 11:13:38 AM »

Still think it should be Caps Lock, or another key entirely; I've switched the behavior (A/D is now the turn-to behavior) but I'd really rather just have a toggle, as I rarely use the default behavior.

I've also switched the "turn-to" to default. If you are going to make it a toggle, make it VERY clear which mode you are in, maybe some kind of UI change.
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Pu239

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 11:14:15 AM »

Thanks guys; I've tried tapping A or D and you're right that the ship then briefly continues to track the cursor but for me the effect always ceases after a brief period. I've taken to holding shift and both A and D then simply releasing A to move starboard or releasing D to move port but I don't like it, hehe.
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Alex

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 11:17:14 AM »

Yeah, I actually tried it as a toggle early on. It was a huge pain to mentally keep track of the state, even with some UI help. Also takes longer to only turn it on for a brief period - you have to press the button twice, instead of press/release. Just didn't work well.

Thanks guys; I've tried tapping A or D and you're right that the ship then briefly continues to track the cursor but for me the effect always ceases after a brief period. I've taken to holding shift and both A and D then simply releasing A to move starboard or releasing D to move port but I don't like it, hehe.

I want to say that there's actually an issue with your keyboard. If it stopped registering the shift key as being down for a split second, this'd happen.

I actually had this happen to me with a mouse, with another game - it was right-click + hold to block, and every so often it'd drop for a split second. I almost thought I was going crazy, but it turned out to be a hardware problem.
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Pu239

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 11:22:32 AM »

I think it's not the keyboard but me; it gets tiring holding that key down for minutes at a time. I find myself only intentionally releasing after a screw up. Often, if I don't let anything flank me then I don't need separate control of the shield. I'm sure this probably depends on ship setup as well but I've been running into long stretches where there is no need to swing the shield off to the side.

Maybe I just need to move it somewhere else. It's just awkward to hold a key continuously with my pinky - works great for typing but then that's only brief presses. Maybe I'll switch space and shift.
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xenoargh

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 11:28:35 AM »

It's not hard to keep track of, if that's the mode you're using 99% of the time ;)  

For those of us who prefer that control style, we're just not popping back and forth a lot, I suspect.  If you've mastered the default style, I'm pretty sure you end up feeling the same way: "why give up shield turning" vs. "why give up intuitive nose control".  

But the only time I quit using mouse-steer is when I'm briefly cutting with a small shield on an Omni shield ship.  I.E., it's an edge case thing, and I'm still puzzled why it's the default, since steering is so much more important than cutting.

Honestly, I wish that we could just set Omni shields to auto-maneuver if we set nose-steering and use nose-steering all the time.  It'd be the best of both worlds.  I wouldn't even mind if it did it poorly occasionally, it'd get rid of a hassle and my hands would be happier.
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Pu239

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »

That's a great idea. Player still controls shield up/down but AI faces the shield - anytime I want better shield management I could just toggle/shift to default. Oh I wish you hadn't said that if it doesn't make it in cause I'm never going to stop wanting that now.  ;D
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Alex

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2012, 11:46:40 AM »

I think it's not the keyboard but me; it gets tiring holding that key down for minutes at a time. I find myself only intentionally releasing after a screw up. Often, if I don't let anything flank me then I don't need separate control of the shield. I'm sure this probably depends on ship setup as well but I've been running into long stretches where there is no need to swing the shield off to the side.

Maybe I just need to move it somewhere else. It's just awkward to hold a key continuously with my pinky - works great for typing but then that's only brief presses. Maybe I'll switch space and shift.

Fair enough. I think I'm just very used to it, from the general shift = sprint bind in FPS games, and from having it be the "show loot" key in Diablo 2 :)

Space won't work, btw - it has to be a modifier key, i.e. shift, alt, or ctrl. I can see potentially pressing right-alt down with your thumb, though that feels a bit awkward for me.


There's also an
"autoturnMode":false,
setting in data/config/settings.json. It's not officially supported and I don't quite remember what it does if you set it to true.

Looked at it... if you bind turn left/turn right to shift-A/D, and set "autoturnMode":true, you'll always turn to follow the mouse unless you're actively turning or holding down shift. So it's the opposite of the current behavior.


For those of us who prefer that control style, we're just not popping back and forth a lot, I suspect.  If you've mastered the default style, I'm pretty sure you end up feeling the same way: "why give up shield turning" vs. "why give up intuitive nose control". 

But the only time I quit using mouse-steer is when I'm briefly cutting with a small shield on an Omni shield ship.  I.E., it's an edge case thing, and I'm still puzzled why it's the default, since steering is so much more important than cutting.

Personally, I end up using both about the same. Auto-turn for tracking a target with hardpoints or strafing around it, manual turning for other maneuvering, unless a non-maximum turn-rate is needed (such as when you want to keep pace with circling Salamanders, to ensure your PD stays right on target). Larger ships tend to see a lot more manual steering for me, too.

More importantly, at least from my perspective, I *do* end up popping back and forth all the time. I feel like that affords me very responsive control, which wouldn't be the case with a toggle. Another key reason to pop back and forth is wanting to move the mouse to pan the view, without having that also turn the ship.

Honestly, I wish that we could just set Omni shields to auto-maneuver if we set nose-steering and use nose-steering all the time.  It'd be the best of both worlds.  I wouldn't even mind if it did it poorly occasionally, it'd get rid of a hassle and my hands would be happier.

I suspect you'd change your mind when a Hellbore shot tore apart your Tempest as it tried to block a Swarmer coming in from the side :) I'm not saying an AI toggle for shields is necessarily a bad idea, but having it always kick in when you're using auto-turn mode seems like it.
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Chancellor Meatsteak

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2012, 11:51:30 AM »

Shift is also used to toggle autofire for the various groups, btw - so I don't think having it be a toggle would be a good idea.

Why not change the default key of toggle autofire to Control then? It's right next to shift, and now that non-mouse-turn strafing has been changed to Q and E its not being used anymore. Even if you don't make shift a toggle (which I would prefer having gotten used to the current system) having toggle autofire and strafe use the same key makes switching weapons while strafing a hassle.

There's also an
"autoturnMode":false,
setting in data/config/settings.json. It's not officially supported and I don't quite remember what it does if you set it to true.

Looked at it... if you bind turn left/turn right to shift-A/D, and set "autoturnMode":true, you'll always turn to follow the mouse unless you're actively turning or holding down shift. So it's the opposite of the current behavior.

Sounds like it would make for a good addition to the options menu.
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Pu239

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2012, 11:54:02 AM »

There's also an
"autoturnMode":false,
setting in data/config/settings.json. It's not officially supported and I don't quite remember what it does if you set it to true.

Looked at it... if you bind turn left/turn right to shift-A/D, and set "autoturnMode":true, you'll always turn to follow the mouse unless you're actively turning or holding down shift. So it's the opposite of the current behavior.

This sounds promising. I'll give it a try but honestly I'd still prefer a toggle. I prefer loot tags as a toggle rather than a hold to show as well.  :P
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xenoargh

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2012, 11:59:52 AM »

Yeah, that sounds like what I want, totally.  I really never use the other mode except when cutting an Omni shield.
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Pu239

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Re: Shift key
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2012, 01:32:02 PM »

I tried it. It's better overall but I realized there is a control scheme that would work all the time for me, and hopefully others too, with no shifting or toggling. Always turn to cursor and control shield rotation with bindable buttons.

Ship rotation is not on/off due to rotational inertia (very nice effect for immersion) which makes controlling it with keys undesirable. Setting a desired heading with the cursor position feels natural. Shield rotation doesn't have the issue of inertia. One key for clockwise rotation and another for counter clockwise rotation would be perfect. In my case I would want to use mouse buttons 4 and 5 to rotate the shields while using A and D for lateral thrust while setting heading with cursor position. It's more to control at once but it has the virtue of being a single control scheme instead of switching between two schemes.

Please? as an option that wouldn't affect anyone who prefers the current split scheme?

Btw, the AI not shielding intelligently wouldn't actually be a downside to AI control when mouse turning as that still beats no control while mouse turning and we could still shiftkey back to shield control since we can see at all times if the current shield placement is satisfactory. So I think that approach would also be an improvement.

Admittedly, the content additions like more systems and the new character levelling system are a bigger deal and totally awesome. Such a detailed combat system can really benefit from flexibility in the control scheme and has a big QoL impact I think.
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