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[LordMord]

Thanks TB for letting me know that this great game exist.
And it is not even finished but already a lot of fun.

[sadron]

TB really disappointed me with his video of Starfarer, it was blatant that he didn't knew what the hell he was doing and blamed it on the interface.

As someone said, someone should have forced him to read the manual before making the video.

Still, I'm really happy that this same video helped with the pre-orders!

Well you have to admit the interface is less than ideal. It could use some streamlining. But hey! It's an alpha Plenty of time to hammer out the kinks.

[BobTheJanitor]

TB really disappointed me with his video of Starfarer, it was blatant that he didn't knew what the hell he was doing and blamed it on the interface.

As someone said, someone should have forced him to read the manual before making the video.

Still, I'm really happy that this same video helped with the pre-orders!

His videos are a first impression series, and that's precisely what you got with that one. He started the game, did the tutorial, and then dove right in to some missions. Nowhere in the game does it say 'you should go read this manual to know how to play'. A new player should not be expected to know that. I wouldn't have known such a thing existed without seeing the stickied post when I came to these forums. And even then, I remain pretty unclear on how the strategic control of the game works. Reading through old posts here is helping me, but again, that's me. When I watch a TB video, I expect to see what someone who is playing a game for the first time is going to see. He is quite right that the interface isn't quite intuitive, and that the tutorial does little to help with that.

Not that I'm hating on the game. It's an alpha, of course there are rough edges. Things like a well rounded, fully functioning tutorial are the sort of thing you put in after your features are finalized, otherwise you'll be teaching people to use tools that may not exist in the next release. But for the moment, it is a valid issue. A new player will expect to get their how-to from playing the game and then from intuition based on the way the UI works. If the manual is required reading before playing, there should be a link to it on the game's menu screen. Otherwise a first time player is going to be doing exactly what you saw in that video.

[Flare]

Nowhere in the game does it say 'you should go read this manual to know how to play'. A new player should not be expected to know that.

I don't know. I think it depends heavily on what kind of game you're talking about. For Casual games I don't think manuals are necessary, for everything else, what intuitive means and whether it's possible to make what the game is trying to convey intuitive is up for debate.

[BobTheJanitor]

I don't know. I think it depends heavily on what kind of game you're talking about. For Casual games I don't think manuals are necessary, for everything else, what intuitive means and whether it's possible to make what the game is trying to convey intuitive is up for debate.

Maybe a decade or more ago it would have been normal to expect a manual for a game. Modern games are much more likely to have an in-game tutorial. If you're expected to look elsewhere for help, the game will mention it somewhere. The old days where you would expect to read an inch thick book before you knew how to control your game are long gone. It just doesn't happen any more. Manuals, if a game has them, are generally just command quick reference lists.

[DNAz]

I don't know. I think it depends heavily on what kind of game you're talking about. For Casual games I don't think manuals are necessary, for everything else, what intuitive means and whether it's possible to make what the game is trying to convey intuitive is up for debate.

Maybe a decade or more ago it would have been normal to expect a manual for a game. Modern games are much more likely to have an in-game tutorial. If you're expected to look elsewhere for help, the game will mention it somewhere. The old days where you would expect to read an inch thick book before you knew how to control your game are long gone. It just doesn't happen any more. Manuals, if a game has them, are generally just command quick reference lists.

Maybe I am too old school but I still expect everything including games to have a manual of some sort.

[DukeVonBathrobe]

Most games don't require manuals these days because a large number of them are simpler/streamlined.  In my opinion, learning the game's systems and logic is part of the game itself, and if it is complex enough to warrant a manual then I will read it and enjoy thinking about how to apply what I learn in game.

However, I will agree that it is not convenient to have to track down a manual via forum post to get that information.  In the game's codex section there should be a copy of the manual that you can read in game, with all of the information set up in chapters for quick access and ease of use.

Not everything needs to be covered in a tutorial, but the information not covered needs to be made readily available.

[Alex]

Just wanted to say that I'm the first to admit that the UI needs some improvement, and that the way TB played it is likely to be representative of a first-time player. Yeah, it's not the "right" way to play - but it's the game's job to teach you the right way, and it clearly did not.

I don't want the player to have to read a manual to know how to play, either - right now, the manual is functioning as sort of a band-aid. The next version has plenty more tooltips for context-sensitive help, so I think that will improve things quite a bit. Having a manual is all well and good, but you certainly can't count on players reading it.

Things like a well rounded, fully functioning tutorial are the sort of thing you put in after your features are finalized, otherwise you'll be teaching people to use tools that may not exist in the next release. But for the moment, it is a valid issue. A new player will expect to get their how-to from playing the game and then from intuition based on the way the UI works. If the manual is required reading before playing, there should be a link to it on the game's menu screen. Otherwise a first time player is going to be doing exactly what you saw in that video.

Yeah... that's the thing, really - a polished, good tutorial is a *lot* of effort, and it's not practical to do for every release. Still, that doesn't mean things won't get better along the way - they definitely will, and I think the dev build is already miles better in terms of usability.

All that being said, I firmly believe that the current command mechanics are a much better fit for the game than RTS-like mechanics.

[Baleur]

Exactly, and we should be HAPPY that we have this conversation. Happy that game UI and context sensitive controls have progressed so far that the need for a manual is almost gone.
It is far better to be able to play a game and learn by doing, with the help of tooltips and information directly in the game, than reading a manual on the side that often does not display the exact correct image to go with the text etc.

Heck, even old games like Alpha Centauri had an ingame encyclopedia with relevant game info, a manual within the game
I don't think it is just a case of games becoming easier and dumber, i think that is part of it in some games but i think the biggest deal is the massively improved user interfaces in most genres these days.

If in the olden days (SE4 as one of the most atrocious examples of poor explanation, nice gameplay though), you had rows and rows of buttons with no tooltips, no explanations, nothing.
Today in most games we have every single button and function explained to us right as we are about to press it. If a random event happens, there are clearly visible stats and effects visible as opposed to just "Plaguuu hits!!", leaving you puzzled until you flip to page 291 in the manual.

Frankly, it was not better in the past in this regard.
But it also means that an unfinished game really do need a little note in the main menu referring to the manual for things that have no been implemented in tooltips yet.
(looks at Sword of The Stars 2, with angry eyes)

[Alex]

Yeah, I love tooltips - recently spent 2-3 whole days just adding tooltips *everywhere*

[Prof_Omnom]

SOPA! HUZZAH FOR IDOTS RULING THE US!

[sadron]

Yeah, I love tooltips - recently spent 2-3 whole days just adding tooltips *everywhere*

Even on the ships' captain's quarters bathroom tissue paper? :O Captains gotta know how to wipe after all :3 PRESS HANDLE TO FLUSH.

[mendonca]

Yeah, I love tooltips - recently spent 2-3 whole days just adding tooltips *everywhere*

Even on the ships' captain's quarters bathroom tissue paper? :O Captains gotta know how to wipe after all :3 PRESS HANDLE TO FLUSH.

I think we've just inadvertently hit on the real reason for limited command points - toilet breaks for the commander!

[Ishikawa]

Brought the game thanks to TB as well, didn't get to play for more than one hour yet, but i love what i have seen so far.

[Zapier]

Exactly, and we should be HAPPY that we have this conversation. Happy that game UI and context sensitive controls have progressed so far that the need for a manual is almost gone.
It is far better to be able to play a game and learn by doing, with the help of tooltips and information directly in the game, than reading a manual on the side that often does not display the exact correct image to go with the text etc.

Heck, even old games like Alpha Centauri had an ingame encyclopedia with relevant game info, a manual within the game
I don't think it is just a case of games becoming easier and dumber, i think that is part of it in some games but i think the biggest deal is the massively improved user interfaces in most genres these days.

If in the olden days (SE4 as one of the most atrocious examples of poor explanation, nice gameplay though), you had rows and rows of buttons with no tooltips, no explanations, nothing.
Today in most games we have every single button and function explained to us right as we are about to press it. If a random event happens, there are clearly visible stats and effects visible as opposed to just "Plaguuu hits!!", leaving you puzzled until you flip to page 291 in the manual.

Frankly, it was not better in the past in this regard.
But it also means that an unfinished game really do need a little note in the main menu referring to the manual for things that have no been implemented in tooltips yet.
(looks at Sword of The Stars 2, with angry eyes)

I agree.

One game I still play hours and hours of... with mods these days... is Civilization IV. In my opinion, the way they implemented and used the encyclopedia function in-game and had it tied throughout most everything was great, unlike SE4 (love that game as well) as you said. It is just so much nicer being able to play and get the information you want with just a click or hover rather than having to dig through something else you may have put in a drawer or have to load up your PDF viewer for...

Granted, you may still need a manual for things that you can't simply explain in a tooltip, but yeah you won't need the 500 page manuals to go with it.