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Author Topic: Make boarding a real choice  (Read 25355 times)

Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2012, 08:57:46 PM »

Ok, I hope I'm rushing not too far ahead, but I thought a bit more about how the interface might look. I have drawn up 2 more mockup screenshots. Let me explain what I'm trying to show:


Spoiler
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The player just clicked on the Board button under the Lasher. Now the game asks him which ship he wants to use for docking by showing a "Dock" button under all his ships. The player clicks on the one for the Enforcer and..

Spoiler
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...the next screen is "Boarding Preparation". The game shows all relevant information and (presuming marine leveling will be integrated) asks what level of marines should be dedicated to the task. Notice that the Enforcer has room for 40, but only 37 marines participate on the boarding. That is because the player selected "normal" as highest marine level (or it was preselected). If he had chosen "Veteran" the boarding party would have 40 marines: 8 Veteran, 17 Normal, 15 Green.
I think to be able to choose the marine level is necessary to avoid the frustration that a loss of elite marines over a unimportant target would generate.

Well, and the risk assessment might be a good idea because the numbers are not exactly intuitive, without it one might think that a 50:50 unit ratio means a 50:50 success chance. Its a help that would benefit especially new players. Just some color coded risk levels, something like: Discouraging, Very High, High, Hardly Acceptable, Acceptable, Manageable, Small, Slight, Cakewalk. I think a more numerical assessment with chance of success in percent or something would not lent itself well to the many possible outcomes in the boarding system. Arguments could be made for both.

The next screen would be the "boarding report" from the frontpage.
Spoiler
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With this set up a boarding action would take between 4 and 5 mouse clicks (board-dock-(marinelvl)-commence-dismiss), I think that's reasonable.

As always I'd like opinions and constructive criticism  :)


Sidenote: As you surely noticed by now I'm assuming single-ship docking. That is because the benefits do not clearly balance out the drawbacks on the mechanic site, but on the interface site it's now obvious that multi-docking would be quite disadvantageous.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 09:34:50 AM by Gothars »
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K-64

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2012, 09:06:19 PM »

One (very minor) thing, for the fighter "boarding" (perhaps commander?), a ship with hangar space should be the only ones allowed to actually do the boarding, since you can't exactly dock to them like you would a normal ship (I'm guessing universal docking ports or something here, I don't know)
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2012, 09:20:29 PM »

One (very minor) thing, for the fighter "boarding" (perhaps commander?), a ship with hangar space should be the only ones allowed to actually do the boarding, since you can't exactly dock to them like you would a normal ship (I'm guessing universal docking ports or something here, I don't know)

Well, I like everything that makes carriers more useful^^
Mh, but for the lore I'd expect the same tools that are capable of bringing all the scrap to the cargo hold airlocks to be capable of bringing a crippled fighter there. And to build additional barriers for capturing the only ships that a player might be able to capture at the beginning seems not good.
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Catra

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2012, 09:26:42 PM »

i don't think any sort of indication should be in place due to how you have random events. if you get a "cakewalk" indicator, and the thing blows up in your face, then it kinda failed its purpose and you should pay no heed to it and just throw everything you have at it until you figure out a good "optimal" number to use. seeing raw numbers will always beat out a more generic status anyday since it gives you the ability to make a much more informed decision, and if it does go wrong you can go " well, i knew the risks" instead of wondering how your marines managed to screw up what was supposed to be easy and leave the player with a bad, bitter taste in their mouth.

the X games suffers heavily from this: a generated mission can be trivial, and spawn enemies / generate objectives that are nigh impossible to do with your current craft, or be marked as very hard and you just breeze through it.

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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2012, 05:29:00 AM »

i don't think any sort of indication should be in place due to how you have random events. if you get a "cakewalk" indicator, and the thing blows up in your face, then it kinda failed its purpose and you should pay no heed to it and just throw everything you have at it until you figure out a good "optimal" number to use.

Mhh...but the events are not totally random, you can greatly influence the spectrum of possible outcomes. The assessments are supposed to represent the applicable spectrum for the specific situation. If the assessment is "cakewalk" I'd say there is no chance that you'd lose the docking ship.


seeing raw numbers will always beat out a more generic status anyday since it gives you the ability to make a much more informed decision, and if it does go wrong you can go " well, i knew the risks" instead of wondering how your marines managed to screw up what was supposed to be easy and leave the player with a bad, bitter taste in their mouth.

Well, you are right about the numbers being more informative of course, but there is the problem of accessibility.
Here are the factors that would go into risk assessment:

Number of marines,
rank distribution of marines,
number of enemy crew,
rank distribution of enemy crew,
size of enemy vessel,
size of player vessel,
hull status of player vessel,
player character skills,
officer influences,
enemy character skills,
enemy officer influences.

I don't think there is any way of displaying that nicely. And before you'd be able to make a informed decision based on this data you'd have to be an expert player.


Btw, I think it might be a good idea to lock up the "cakewalk" and "very easy" situations to players with skill or officer bonuses. After all 100 marines can't run faster to the enemy bridge than 50, but marines with special training or a excellent tactical commander could.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:59:19 AM by Gothars »
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Catra

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »

Quote
The assessments are supposed to represent the applicable spectrum for the specific situation. If the assessment is "cakewalk" I'd say there is no chance that you'd lose the docking ship.

then this brings us full circle:

why would i use a combat vessel ( which doesn't have all that much capacity for marines ) over a non-combat vessel ( which has a huge capacity for marines ) for boarding operations? in your example you  have 4* the amount they do and only have acceptable, the non-combat vessels can bring alot more than that.

Quote
Here are the factors that would go into risk assessment:

Number of marines,
rank distribution of marines,
number of enemy crew,
rank distribution of enemy crew,
size of enemy vessel,
size of player vessel,
hull status of player vessel,
player character skills,
officer influences,
enemy character skills,
enemy officer influences.

- already showing it

- already showing it

- already showing it

- make the numbers tiered so your example would be something like : 0/0/7/2 ( Elite / Veteran / Normal / Green )

- already showing it

- already showing it

- you already show this in the victory screen, showing it again is redundant

- mouse over your units to see what is effecting them, just like the ships show their augments.

- you cannot possibly know either of these ( unless the enemy is using something that is super obvious ), so it would be rather jarring to know beforehand that he is some counter-boarding specialist or some Elite ex-marine or whatever.



though, this wasn't what i was getting at:


in your example, you have acceptable.

what does that mean? what are the chances of something happening?

basically, break it down so i can send the appropriate forces in. so something like:

Risk Assesment:

chance overrun:
chance self destruct diffusion failure:
chance of marines damaging the ship into an inoperable state:
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2012, 07:59:44 PM »

Quote
The assessments are supposed to represent the applicable spectrum for the specific situation. If the assessment is "cakewalk" I'd say there is no chance that you'd lose the docking ship.

then this brings us full circle:

why would i use a combat vessel ( which doesn't have all that much capacity for marines ) over a non-combat vessel ( which has a huge capacity for marines ) for boarding operations? in your example you  have 4* the amount they do and only have acceptable, the non-combat vessels can bring alot more than that.

You would not, but why is that a problem?
I think this was already explained, but I will try to go into more detail.
If you are in a boarding situation and have a suitable non-combat vessel in your fleet, sure, it would be the one to use. But the critical decision occurs earlier, when you decide what ships you want in your fleet. To take a non-combat ship in the first place is the decision here, and it has to be carefully considered. Aside from troop transports you will also want carriers, cargo ships and fuel tankers in your fleet (in the finished campaign). If you deduct another 10% of your FP for a ship with a single non-combat use your combat ability is further reduced. And after all, you can't board anything as long as you don't beat it's fleet first.

- already showing everything

The point is that this are a lot of information that play into boarding, and all would have to be visible at the same time (which is not the case now) and then have to be carefully evaluated (which is bothersome).

in your example, you have acceptable.

what does that mean? what are the chances of something happening?
break it down
Good point. Got me thinking.
First, to clarify: Risk Assessment is only talking about risk. The risks are that your marines die, the target self destructs, your ship gets damaged,  your ship gets hijacked, and how grave the damage is. It doesn't say anything about the chance of successful capturing or respectively chance of permanently disabling a ship (which is not a risk in the same sense, because it can't result in a net loss).

To break down all those pure risk factors is a possibility. The questions is, does it really let you "send appropriate forces in" better than the simple model. I don't think so, because you can't influence most of them individually. The number and experience of the marines influence almost all risk factors the same. Exceptions:
1)the relative damage to a docking ship is influenced by the docking ship HP.
2)the crew number/rank of the docking ship could influence the chance of holding the ship in case of an airlock overrun and overall crew survivability in case of hull damage
So you might think that at least those 2 factors should be displayed separately...
BUT those events have preconditions, and those preconditions are again influenced by marine number /rank, so it would be meaningless to simply display the influence of those 2 factors.

If for example the "chance of docking ship being destructed" was shown, the player might think "oh, that's too high, lets just use a tougher ship". But by changing the ship he would also change the number of marines, so the previous assessment of ship destruction probability would be meaningless, it could actually end up higher for a tougher ship that carries less marines.


I listed all outcomes and color coded the dependencies, I hope it's comprehensible. Step 2) would have to be calculated after 1) came out negative, step 3) and 4) be calculated after 2) came out negative.
 
Influencing factors under player control:
Marine number/rank
Docking ship HP
Docking ship crew number/rank
--> = "is precondition for calculation of"

1)- chance of docking ship being overrun  in % --> 1b)chance of crew holding the ship(A2) in % --> 1c)chance for a crew member to die in %

2)- chance of target self-destruction in % --> 2b) range of potential damage  in HP(min/max) * --> 2c) relative damage (culminating in destruction) on docking ship in % of pre-boarding HP --> 2d) chance for a crew member to die in %

3)- chance of damaging the docking ship in % -->3b) range of potential damage in HP(min/max)* --> 3c) relative damage (culminating in destruction) on docking ship in % of pre-boarding HP --> 3d) chance for a crew member to die in %

4)- chance for a marine to die in %

*= secondary dependent effect: chance for a marine to die in %

Only after all the risks are calculated the actual reason for this whole mess has it's turn. Condition is that 1) and 2) are negative, 3) did not lead to destruction and 4) did not lead to heavy losses (that would mean retreat).

5)- chance to successfully capture the target in %

If this comes out negative the target is irrevocably destroyed by fighting or sabotage.

Maybe...probably it would make sense to display a success chance under the Risk Assessment. That can not be the chance of 5) but would have to be a (much lower) chance that is calculated by subtracting from 5) the chances that anything could go horrible wrong in steps 1)-4).



Spoiler
This might seem a bit confusing, to clarify I'll try to assign the conditions to the list of possible boarding outcomes in the opening post. I'm not sure that this doesn't make things worse, though ;D   The [numbers] stand for the numbers) above, the letters for the conditional effect b/c/d/* associated with that number. + is for positive, - for negative outcome.


- The marines are vastly outnumbered, the enemy crew manages to overrun the airlocks[1+] and capture your boarding ship[1b+]. They escape with it, there’s a new enemy fleet on the campaign screen with that stolen ship. This is only likely to happen if you try to capture f.e. a battle cruiser with a frigate.

- The enemy crew activates the self-destruction. The marines don’t manage to defuse it in time, the ship blows up [2+]. The marines suffer heavy causalities [2*] and the docking ship is severely damaged [2c] or even destroyed (depending on relative ship sizes and docking ship HP).

-The marines are too few or too weak [4-], they have to retreat and the docking ship has to disengage. Marines have heavy causalities, light damage on the docking ship is likely [3]. The player can make another attempt at boarding.

- The marines overwhelm the crew[4+], but the heavy fighting and sabotage have damaged central systems irrevocable [5-]. The ship can only be scrapped. Light damage on the docking ship is possible due to the reasons stated above [3].

- The marines successfully overwhelm the crew [4+] and the ship is captured [5+].Possible acts of sabotage or malfunction on secondary reactors, airlocks or ammunition depots may lead to explosions on the target and thus to light damage (and crew loss [3d]) on the docking ship [3].
[close]
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 06:37:57 AM by Gothars »
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2012, 03:42:14 PM »

Phh, could not help myself to update the interface screenshots. I hope this ends up being of any use to you Alex.

In this version, after you click on Board the right half of the screen becomes the boarding prep screen. It displays the enemy ship and something like "Choose ship for docking maneuver!" (feel free to ignore the missing ship name of the lasher)
Spoiler
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Once you do, this comes up:

Spoiler
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The advantage is that you can easily switch and compare the docking ship, no need to abort every time. And it's a bit more intuitive if the game clearly shows you what to do next. The downside is that you now need 2 clicks to switch the boarding target, but that should not happen as often.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 09:35:14 AM by Gothars »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2012, 03:55:23 PM »

Being excited about your suggested feature is great. At the same time, I would assume that all any developer would really need is the general idea and a screenshot or two if your idea seems a little vague without visual example. Getting in to the specifics of a suggestion isn't always the best idea, since the specifics don't always survive the coding or testing phases.

All that being said, the screenshots do look cool.
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2012, 04:15:56 PM »

Being excited about your suggested feature is great. At the same time, I would assume that all any developer would really need is the general idea and a screenshot or two if your idea seems a little vague without visual example. Getting in to the specifics of a suggestion isn't always the best idea, since the specifics don't always survive the coding or testing phases.

All that being said, the screenshots do look cool.

Don't worry, I know that. I'm just having fun playing game designer (and learning to use GIMP) :)
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Morrokain

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2012, 10:21:07 PM »

Quote
Then perhaps this should be implemented in the fashion that combat is in already, where you have the option to engage with you in charge when you think you can win and allow you to use your second-in-command when you need a surprise.

 (e.g. "Wow I had 50 battled-hardened space marines simultaneously breach and then clear every room in the frigate. They lost to the only crew left - the captain's (space) gold-fish collection").

Got quite the chuckle out of this  :P

That's all I have to add other than some great ideas here!
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intothewildblueyonder

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2012, 08:41:59 AM »

Gothars it may be a good idea to use the spoiler tag for some of the larger pics
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2012, 09:37:10 AM »

Acknowledged :)
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Axiege

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2012, 11:41:53 AM »

This would be really cool, would give purpose to low fire-power but highly defensive troop-carrier type ships

CrashToDesktop

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2012, 01:13:39 PM »

You put a lot of effort into these posts, Gothars. :) Excellent idea, as well as veyr rounded and well-though out.

+1
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