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Author Topic: Make boarding a real choice  (Read 25267 times)

silentstormpt

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 04:57:37 PM »

I'd like this to be how it worked, but only if it becomes possible to deliberately leave enemy ships in a boardable state during combat.  

Otherwise it's just a profit-loss system where sometimes the dice fall in a bad way, which doesn't add much skill or fun.  

In effect, this is just the same as raising the number of Marines it takes to board (because, let's face it, if the ship that boards takes damage, you're going to go to port and repair it, in most cases), and it doesn't introduce any new skill factors that would make it a better feature.

The obvious route towards more Fun is to make it possible to make weapons that disable a target without destroying it (i.e., make a sharper division between Disabled and Destroyed).  Then boarding may be more dicey, but there's an upside on average and it becomes pretty profitable if you're skilled.  There's nothing wrong with players making lots of money via captures in the longer-term play, either; after a while, 12K for a captured ship is just going to be a drop in the bucket and players will probably have largely quit bothering anyhow.  But, for players wanting to RP Space Pirates, this and selling the cargoes is pretty core to their experience, so it needs to be profitable enough, if one specializes in this area, that one can have a pretty solid income from it.

Target ship has no weapons with shield down.
AND
Target ship is currently overloaded.
(note that you can send the Shuttles when you want, regardless the targets condition but they would end up being slaughtered. AI Priorities Assault Shuttles IF they are being targeted by them).

Press B to send out Assault Shuttles (Note: Assault Shuttles can be easily destroyed so Make a boarding action when the ship is at list partly disabled.)

Assault Shuttles return once they:
ARE victorious;
Enemy ship recovered its shields;
Pressing [specific key].

Losing Assault Shuttles results in losing the amount of marines, crew (to control the ship) and supplies to rebuild the craft after destroyed.
Failed captures result in the Shuttle returning with the crew (to control the ship) and the surviving marines, all Supplies are kept (craft wasn't destroyed).

Boarding actions will freeze the battle, resulting boarding action would have a similar system Gothars was posting as an example.

You can even go further:

Armored Assault Shuttles: Costs XX OP.
Increases all Assault Shuttles Armor by 100%
Lower Marine capacity

Fast Assault Shuttles: Costs XX OP.
Increases All Assault Shuttle speed by 25%

Extra Assault Shuttles: Costs XX OP.
Allows Extra Assault Shuttles to be used in a Battle.

Player Traits that increases the chance to attack or defend on boarding actions etc...


----

Depending on the enemy ship damage may change the number of marines inside
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 05:12:11 PM by silentstormpt »
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maximilianyuen

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 06:12:43 PM »

I'd like this to be how it worked, but only if it becomes possible to deliberately leave enemy ships in a boardable state during combat.  

Otherwise it's just a profit-loss system where sometimes the dice fall in a bad way, which doesn't add much skill or fun.  

In effect, this is just the same as raising the number of Marines it takes to board (because, let's face it, if the ship that boards takes damage, you're going to go to port and repair it, in most cases), and it doesn't introduce any new skill factors that would make it a better feature.

The obvious route towards more Fun is to make it possible to make weapons that disable a target without destroying it (i.e., make a sharper division between Disabled and Destroyed).  Then boarding may be more dicey, but there's an upside on average and it becomes pretty profitable if you're skilled.  There's nothing wrong with players making lots of money via captures in the longer-term play, either; after a while, 12K for a captured ship is just going to be a drop in the bucket and players will probably have largely quit bothering anyhow.  But, for players wanting to RP Space Pirates, this and selling the cargoes is pretty core to their experience, so it needs to be profitable enough, if one specializes in this area, that one can have a pretty solid income from it.

Target ship has no weapons with shield down.
AND
Target ship is currently overloaded.
(note that you can send the Shuttles when you want, regardless the targets condition but they would end up being slaughtered. AI Priorities Assault Shuttles IF they are being targeted by them).

Press B to send out Assault Shuttles (Note: Assault Shuttles can be easily destroyed so Make a boarding action when the ship is at list partly disabled.)

Assault Shuttles return once they:
ARE victorious;
Enemy ship recovered its shields;
Pressing [specific key].

Losing Assault Shuttles results in losing the amount of marines, crew (to control the ship) and supplies to rebuild the craft after destroyed.
Failed captures result in the Shuttle returning with the crew (to control the ship) and the surviving marines, all Supplies are kept (craft wasn't destroyed).

Boarding actions will freeze the battle, resulting boarding action would have a similar system Gothars was posting as an example.

You can even go further:

Armored Assault Shuttles: Costs XX OP.
Increases all Assault Shuttles Armor by 100%
Lower Marine capacity

Fast Assault Shuttles: Costs XX OP.
Increases All Assault Shuttle speed by 25%

Extra Assault Shuttles: Costs XX OP.
Allows Extra Assault Shuttles to be used in a Battle.

Player Traits that increases the chance to attack or defend on boarding actions etc...


----

Depending on the enemy ship damage may change the number of marines inside

i LOVE this, but need not to freeze the battle really
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 06:23:50 PM »

Alright, thank you for the positive feedback everybody :) It's great that you like it Alex.

I will add some clarification and balance detail that would have cluttered the first post too much. Sorry if I misunderstand something, I was just out and am quite drunk (praise chrome for spell checking).

When would you make the decision to board the ship?  

Just as it is now, after the battle. I would however suggest that the chance of a ship being boardable should be (much) higher than it is now. The current low chance is necessary to counterbalance the 100% success rate with enough marines. But if boarding is so dangerous that an attempt would be a hard choice, the player should indeed have the choice to try to board the ship he really wants. I feel a balance that leaves the initial rate of actually successful boardings lower than the current one, but could be augmented with character/officer/ship specialization would be ideal. For the magnitude of the danger consider the following:

because, let's face it, if the ship that boards takes damage, you're going to go to port and repair it, in most cases


That's true for the current one-system build. I expect things like damage and crew-loss to be much more relevant once you can venture in unknown territory, or even in hostile space where no station is near. If you think about the whole accident system (on which my suggestion is based) it doesn't make that much sense right now, all consequences can be compensated within the minute.


I'd like this to be how it worked, but only if it becomes possible to deliberately leave enemy ships in a boardable state during combat. make weapons that disable a target without destroying it  


If you take my  balancing idea of making boardability (pffrh^^) a likely state of a ship in the after action screen and combine it with the fact that EMP weapons can kill crew without damaging the ship (I remember that right, yes?), you got your influence possibility and your weapon. Uh, and I got my concerns about the irrelevance of the Ion Cannon addressed. Wow, this meshes beautifully :) e/seems that the thing about EMP killing crew was a false rumor :(

I feel like another (added? It does mesh with your ideas) way to do this is to make marines more precious.

Definitely, and because you can only use a limited number of them, experienced marines will be especially valuable. I think the normal crew experience system would make sense for marines (right now it does not), except that XP should be gained in boarding actions obviously. I would not be opposed to higher standard marine costs either, that fancy armor can't be cheap.

You'd more likely send over boarding shuttles

If the lore is the problem, you can simply come up with a technical reason why boarding shuttles are not practical. E.g. no room for such shuttles in smaller ships, too few marines in a shuttle to board successfully, prone to destruction by sabotage etc.. Gameplay wise I see no advantage for shuttles.

wouldn't the valkyrie make boarding trivial? ~200 Spartans SPESS MEHREENS convicts with guns being prodded forward can easily overwhelm anything that isn't a paragon / astral.

The Valkyrie would indeed present a advantage, but then it has not much other use, so it would most likely be only a good ship for boarding specialists, pirates or the likes. Trivial should boarding be at no point, maybe my concept of balance is clear by now, but to recap: even if you outnumber your enemy 200:1 there would still be a significant possibility that the boarding fails and your ship gets damaged in the process.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 07:26:40 PM by Gothars »
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Aleskander

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 06:55:53 PM »

Why are you forced to board with one ship? I don't see a real reason why not to. And that makes most of the system pointless. I do like the idea of more of the ships being boardable, and it being a fairly risky decision. Also, why would you board a ship that's only knocked out, it would be fairly easy to just wait until the crew is dead. I think there was a topic that discussed this a time ago, and as I remember it didn't really get anywhere.
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 07:22:53 PM »

Why are you forced to board with one ship? I don't see a real reason why not to. And that makes most of the system pointless. I do like the idea of more of the ships being boardable, and it being a fairly risky decision. Also, why would you board a ship that's only knocked out, it would be fairly easy to just wait until the crew is dead. I think there was a topic that discussed this a time ago, and as I remember it didn't really get anywhere.

Mhhhh....boarding with more ships could be a interesting choice. You would obviously endanger all of them, could even lose them. It's a similar decision as using a small ship vs. a big ship. For fleets that rely on frigates and small ships it might be the only fair way, otherwise they could never successfully board a cruiser or capship. It should have limit's though, maybe 2 frigates could dock on a frigate, 3 on a destroyer, 4 on a cruiser and 5 on a cap or something like this. For docking destroyers it's those numbers -1, for cruiser -2, for caps -3 (with a minimum of 1 obviously).

Regarding the waiting idea: a ship that is boardable has working life support. If the the life support system is destroyed the ship is useless and can only be scrapped.

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Catra

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »

Quote
significant possibility that the boarding fails and your ship gets damaged in the process.


and why should i care that a relatively cheap non-combat vessel got damaged? the cost to repair is likely nil, and you can toss all the armour and hull upgrades on it if you are especially paranoid.

Quote
That's true for the current one-system build. I expect things like damage and crew-loss to be much more relevant once you can venture in unknown territory, or even in hostile space where no station is near. If you think about the whole accident system (on which my suggestion is based) it doesn't make that much sense right now, all consequences can be compensated within the minute.

i doubt anyone is going to actually stop and cause any trouble when way out in the middle of nowhere, as that is a much bigger risk than 1 ship getting it's paint scratched.

i doubt anyone is going to go on a rampage in enemy territory when looking for a specific ship.

the only thing i foresee is a player camping the most convenient spot ( IE: a spot with lenient / no guards, easy access to repairs + crew ) to do boarding action.
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Nightmare

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 07:47:46 PM »

I don't think it should rely on dice rolls at all; It just breaks what's in the game. I mean, combat comes down to what you did to get to that point, your decisions in the battle, your own skill, etc and if you fail it's your own fault. But if you want to grab that ship you disabled, too bad the dice roll says no and you enjoy your ship damage. It could work better if you try and board the ship real time and have a quick RTS combat system mid-battle and multi-task both battles or after battle or whatever option; I just don't feel like something like this should simply be completely taken out of a player's hands to determine whether boarding is successfully done.


Regarding the waiting idea: a ship that is boardable has working life support. If the the life support system is destroyed the ship is useless and can only be scrapped.

It could be interesting if systems were a strategic point to cripple, like in FTL. Loss of the ability to board for some effect mid-battle or something?
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 08:02:44 PM »

and why should i care that a relatively cheap non-combat vessel got damaged? the cost to repair is likely nil, and you can toss all the armour and hull upgrades on it if you are especially paranoid.

Mh, as I said the success rate is still not that high. And you are towing a otherwise useless ship around that is even far inferior in it's only role to most capital ships. So I don't think the Valkyrie is a balance breaker or a must have.

 
i doubt anyone is going to actually stop and cause any trouble when way out in the middle of nowhere, as that is a much bigger risk than 1 ship getting it's paint scratched.

i doubt anyone is going to go on a rampage in enemy territory when looking for a specific ship.

the only thing i foresee is a player camping the most convenient spot ( IE: a spot with lenient / no guards, easy access to repairs + crew ) to do boarding action.

Well, if boarding is so dangerous that you can only safely do it at your doorstep I would call that good balancing. I would assume that any really great ship you want does not casually fly by. So if you want a special ship you have to traverse dangerous space and commence the boarding there. But even if you manage to find a nice spot that has repair and good ships to capture, maybe it becomes less nice if you keep attacking them...

Anyway, I've got to sleep now.

P.S. You've got a PM.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 08:08:59 PM by Gothars »
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Catra

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 03:08:10 AM »

Quote
Mh, as I said the success rate is still not that high.

and that's completely dodging the question. i don't care that it's not high, nowhere was i talking about the success rate.

Quote
And you are towing a otherwise useless ship around that is even far inferior in it's only role to most capital ships.

and that would apply to every other ship in the game as well....there's no point in comparing it to capital ships since capital ships are going to dominate no matter what you put up against it.

Quote
So I don't think the Valkyrie is a balance breaker or a must have.

so, it's balanced and not considered a must have because of lolcapitalships? yeah, that makes perfect sense. that just shows how horrible the balance actually is, as you need a capital ship, a ship whose monetary costs are some 10 - 15x the amount of the ship, whose large weapons are just as pricey - costs 4x the amount of the ship, whose 2x more expensive FP wise to compete with it for boarding operations.

also, for small time operations who can't find a place to buy (let alone, afford or steal) a lolcapitalship, what do you suggest they use then? why would they put a much more important fighting ship on the line when they can send in a ship whose job is to do nothing else BUT deliver troops and can atleast wipe a few negative consequences off the board?

Quote
So if you want a special ship you have to traverse dangerous space and commence the boarding there.

which i already addressed:

you are going to go there.
get your prize ship.
leave.

you are not going to:

proceed to where your prize ship is.
commence to shoot up anything that shows hostile between you and the target sector and potentially have some disaster befall you.
die horribly.

Quote
maybe it becomes less nice if you keep attacking them...

yes, biting the hand that feeds, always a grand idea. one is not going to shoot up the side which is dominating the area.
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harrumph

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 03:49:07 AM »

I like the idea a lot!

Personally, I'm still holding out hope for a fairly substantial overhaul of the crew/marines system, but even if we don't get that, we will probably see an economy in which marines aren't waiting around by the hundreds at every single station—so they ought to become a more valuable resource even without a new boarding mechanic. What I really like is the idea of giving ships an extra dimension of value in gameplay.

As it stands, a ship's raw combat strength is by far its most important value—which is the way it should be, of course, and which contains plenty of variety and nuance on its own (firepower vs. mobility vs. endurance, etc.). Other than that, though, all we've got is cargo capacity and supply efficiency, and, whenever inter-system travel is implemented, we'll have fuel capacity and efficiency. Encouraging players to devote FP to personnel capacity/boarding ability, too, would be interesting.

I don't think the Valkyrie, as it stands, would be a no-brainer in every fleet. It's what, 9 FP? That's a pretty substantial outlay, especially if you force the player to deploy it into battle if he/she wants to use it in boarding actions. Besides, the current fleet foster and ship stats aren't set in stone; the Valkyrie's capacity could be reduced and other troop transports (and frigate-sized assault shuttles?) could be implemented.

(Also, hey! Maybe we can dial down the vitriol here? This isn't exactly a life-or-death matter)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 03:54:40 AM by harrumph »
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 04:50:07 AM »

I don't think it should rely on dice rolls at all

I totally get what you are saying, just before I came up with the current idea I had the design of a boarding mini-game that I was going to suggest half finished. It had to do with marine squads progressing through a ship along squares (like the armor you see in the HUD) and clearing out pockets of resistance. But then I asked myself: do I really want to play a half-assed minigame over and over again? Even if it's fun at the beginning, it can't be too complex, so there's no way it would stay fun as long as the main game. And at one point I'd just want to know the outcome of a boarding action and click on autoresolve anyway. So why not make the autoresolve function interesting from the start? And that's that.


I like the idea a lot!

Glad that you like it it :)
That marines could become a rare resource is a good point, I had not considered that.
You are right with the importance of out-of-combat ship value, and this boarding solution complements well the fact that, as of now, maximum crew capacity is in the game but of little relevance (except for those high tech frigates where skeleton=max capacity).


Quote
Mh, as I said the success rate is still not that high.
and that's completely dodging the question. i don't care that it's not high, nowhere was i talking about the success rate.


Hey Catra, questions are fine, but I would ask you to dial down your tone. This reads a bit as if I'd be on trial.
None of what you address so fiercely seems to be a fundamental problem with the concept to me, but details of balancing or inherent in a certain play stile you presume.
If you got further constructive criticism you are welcome to express it, as long as you can do it nicely.
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sKarpunch

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 07:15:26 AM »

for bigger ships that have heftier docking ports (therefore harder to break through) you could have a specific type of boarding ship such as this:



this obviously damages the target ship, but leaves your ship intact. i'd elaborate more but its quarterpast 12 and im tired

ZZZZZzzzzskarpunch
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Catra

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2012, 10:38:08 AM »

Quote
Hey Catra, questions are fine, but I would ask you to dial down your tone. This reads a bit as if I'd be on trial.

oh, i am ohso sorry for calling you out on dodging a question and wasting my limited time. answer it next time and maybe you wont get such a "tone"  ::)

Quote
If you got further constructive criticism you are welcome to express it, as long as you can do it nicely.

and how can i do so? you PMd me whining about my questions being negative. if you consider a line of questions negative, then theres no way to do anything nicely.
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Thaago

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2012, 11:54:45 AM »

Catra: its not the questions he doesn't like - they are very good questions that will probably help refine this suggestion.

What people don't like is your hyper-confrontational way of saying that you disagree or that someone hasn't answered a question to your liking.

Quote
so, it's balanced and not considered a must have because of lolcapitalships? yeah, that makes perfect sense. that just shows how horrible the balance actually is, as you need a capital ship, a ship whose monetary costs are some 10 - 15x the amount of the ship, whose large weapons are just as pricey - costs 4x the amount of the ship, whose 2x more expensive FP wise to compete with it for boarding operations.

also, for small time operations who can't find a place to buy (let alone, afford or steal) a lolcapitalship, what do you suggest they use then? why would they put a much more important fighting ship on the line when they can send in a ship whose job is to do nothing else BUT deliver troops and can atleast wipe a few negative consequences off the board?

You make decent points here, but you insult Gothars in almost every single sentence. You don't just say 'capital ships', you say 'lolcapitalships' - you are belittling Gothars points rather than just saying why you don't agree.

Quote
yeah that makes perfect sense
You write an insulting, sarcastic quip instead of just saying you disagree. This is what people want you to stop doing.

On topic: you completely misunderstood the point Gothars was trying to make. Of course Valkyries are a superior choice for boarding, but they are otherwise useless, vulnerable ships that take up FP and slow the fleet down. A player who wants to board large ships would buy some. A player who doesn't would not. Nothing imbalanced with a ship being super specialized - look at the Dagger. I agree with you that the Valkyrie would be a ship that would need to be fine tuned to balance the new system, but that doesn't mean the proposed system is bad.

Quote
Hey Catra, questions are fine, but I would ask you to dial down your tone. This reads a bit as if I'd be on trial.

oh, i am ohso sorry for calling you out on dodging a question and wasting my limited time. answer it next time and maybe you wont get such a "tone"  ::)

Quote
If you got further constructive criticism you are welcome to express it, as long as you can do it nicely.

and how can i do so? you PMd me whining about my questions being negative. if you consider a line of questions negative, then theres no way to do anything nicely.

This whole post is just you sarcastically whining. Why would you post this?
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intothewildblueyonder

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 11:56:56 AM »

I don't think it should rely on dice rolls at all

I totally get what you are saying, just before I came up with the current idea I had the design of a boarding mini-game that I was going to suggest half finished. It had to do with marine squads progressing through a ship along squares (like the armor you see in the HUD) and clearing out pockets of resistance. But then I asked myself: do I really want to play a half-assed minigame over and over again? Even if it's fun at the beginning, it can't be too complex, so there's no way it would stay fun as long as the main game. And at one point I'd just want to know the outcome of a boarding action and click on autoresolve anyway. So why not make the autoresolve function interesting from the start? And that's that.



Then perhaps this should be implemented in the fashion that combat is in already, where you have the option to engage with you in charge when you think you can win and allow you to use your second-in-command when you need a surprise.

 (e.g. "Wow I had 50 battled-hardened space marines simultaneously breach and then clear every room in the frigate. They lost to the only crew left - the captain's (space) gold-fish collection").

I like the idea of  the minigame, although it may be because I have been playing too much FTL and have had alot of fun with the way that game does it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 11:58:41 AM by intothewildblueyonder »
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