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Author Topic: Make boarding a real choice  (Read 25261 times)

Thule

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2012, 02:21:42 PM »

Very nice thought out idea(s), Kudos.
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arcibalde

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2012, 02:32:14 PM »

I concur  ;D   Really good suggestion.
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2012, 02:43:32 PM »

Guys, guys, you make me all red in the face ;D
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arcibalde

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2012, 02:44:18 PM »

Guys, guys, you make me all red in the face ;D
Then stop giving excellent suggestions  ;D
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Thule

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 03:03:25 PM »

*slow clap*
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Reshy

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2012, 03:20:07 PM »

Why not have boarding also be a bit interactive.  Like guiding your green dots throughout a blue ship and righting red dots along the way.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2012, 04:25:32 PM »

So long it's like a radar, and you can't control them.  A little show never hurts. :)
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Veneke

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2012, 09:14:32 PM »

First up, this is an excellent suggestion. Boarding is definitely too much of an easy decision and is, for the most part, pretty unrewarding unless there's a specific ship involved.



What follows is just a brief suggestion on how to make the actual boarding phase a little more interesting. Feel free to ignore.

Why not have boarding also be a bit interactive.  Like guiding your green dots throughout a blue ship and righting red dots along the way.

I do think that there's an opportunity here for a mini-game. There are two basic problems though,

1. The AI has to be able to respond to it, so it must be simple or require little to no AI resources.
2. It has to be entertaining and short enough, regardless of the sizes of the ships involved, that auto-resolve is not the default choice.

One thing that comes to mind is something similar to the Final Fantasy 7 boarding scenario. For those unaware of the game (or have simply forgotten this part of it) it essentially asks you to prioritize the areas you want to attack and defend and then resolves accordingly.

Say there are five areas: 1. Command centre, 2. Initial boarding area, 3. Engines, 4. Armoury, 5. Support equipment.

You assign each area a priority from 1-5 and hit resolve. At this point, a count-down clock begins on each section with the time displayed indicative of how long before the crew there sabotages the ship beyond repair with loss of all marines on board and/or damage to the boarding ship. The count-down clock would vary per section in response to the priority the AI put on the area. How quickly your marines moved to an area would depend on marine skill, any officer/skill bonuses and the marine-crew ratio.

You could make it more complicated by changing the damage each area 'lost' does to the ship (eg losing the Armoury might increase enemy crew effectiveness vs. your marines) but that's probably unnecessary.

At any rate, the idea here is largely to add a bit of excitement and strategy, however limited, to the boarding process. At the moment it's little more than a case of bringing overwhelming numbers and I don't feel that the suggestion as is goes far enough into offering alternatives. It would also get around some of the issues that cropped up relating to the difficulty displayed. At the end of it, the player would know exactly why he lost the boarding action - the AI decided to sabotage the ship using explosives from the Armoury while the player's marines went prancing around the Command centre. It wouldn't just be because the game just rolled a 1 on his 99/100 chance to capture the ship.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 09:17:32 PM by Veneke »
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2012, 06:27:46 AM »

At the end of it, the player would know exactly why he lost the boarding action - the AI decided to sabotage the ship using explosives from the Armoury while the player's marines went prancing around the Command centre. It wouldn't just be because the game just rolled a 1 on his 99/100 chance to capture the ship.

Is this really different, though? If you have no prior knowledge of the AIs deployment pattern it is complete chance if you deploy your troops in the right way to defeat it. With a bit statistics knowledge you could actually calculate exactly how good your captures chances are and arrive at something like 99/100 as well. A minigame as this is only masking the dice, it offers no real choice. Show value is nice, but not if you have to see the same pointless thing a thousand times.

For a interesting minigame you'd need the ability to react to your opponents tactics, and that would make the game complex and protracted.
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Veneke

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2012, 07:06:47 AM »


Is this really different, though? If you have no prior knowledge of the AIs deployment pattern it is complete chance if you deploy your troops in the right way to defeat it. With a bit statistics knowledge you could actually calculate exactly how good your captures chances are and arrive at something like 99/100 as well. A minigame as this is only masking the dice, it offers no real choice. Show value is nice, but not if you have to see the same pointless thing a thousand times.

For a interesting minigame you'd need the ability to react to your opponents tactics, and that would make the game complex and protracted.

Ultimately no, but then again no computer game is ever really much more than masking a dice roll. It's down to presentation more than anything else and the illusion of an explanation of something other than rolling the 1 out of 100. To come at it from another angle, you could handle space combat for Starfarer in the same manner you're suggesting boarding actions should be done. Why bother with the fancy graphics? Ultimately speaking, it doesn't matter as far as the mechanics are concerned. The player is simply manipulating those mechanics, no more so than they would be picking priorities. The reason why we bother with the fancy graphics, as we all know, is that it's bloody entertaining!

What I'm getting at here (if I'm being unclear) is that it's all about the packaging. The question is how much is needed. I simply think that a bit more is warranted on the boarding mechanics, both the ones that currently exist and the new ones you've proposed.
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2012, 08:17:49 AM »

Ultimately no, but then again no computer game is ever really much more than masking a dice roll. It's down to presentation more than anything else and the illusion of an explanation of something other than rolling the 1 out of 100. To come at it from another angle, you could handle space combat for Starfarer in the same manner you're suggesting boarding actions should be done. Why bother with the fancy graphics? Ultimately speaking, it doesn't matter as far as the mechanics are concerned. The player is simply manipulating those mechanics, no more so than they would be picking priorities. The reason why we bother with the fancy graphics, as we all know, is that it's bloody entertaining!

No, this is not right. If opposing forces can react to each others actions, the outcome is also determined by the abilities of those forces. Probability is still involved, but the fun part is to modify the results predicted by it via your skills. The autoresolve feature reflects that, you choose it if the probability is so far in your favor that your skill is not needed (which would result in a battle that is not much fun).
Picking priorities in your scenario is random, no skill is needed.

What I'm getting at here (if I'm being unclear) is that it's all about the packaging. The question is how much is needed. I simply think that a bit more is warranted on the boarding mechanics, both the ones that currently exist and the new ones you've proposed.

I don't mind some show value, but it should not result in a scenario where you have to make decisions that don't matter. If you have a good idea how this could made better looking or more exciting without encumbering the flow of the game, let's have it. I don't see how that's possible at the moment.

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Veneke

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2012, 09:06:14 AM »


No, this is not right. If opposing forces can react to each others actions, the outcome is also determined by the abilities of those forces. Probability is still involved, but the fun part is to modify the results predicted by it via your skills. The autoresolve feature reflects that, you choose it if the probability is so far in your favor that your skill is not needed (which would result in a battle that is not much fun).
Picking priorities in your scenario is random, no skill is needed.

The only difference between autoresolve and actually playing out a battle is that you are able to control the selection of certain actions inside the mechanics given to you by the game. Your ability to correctly guess which actions will yield the best results constitutes your 'skill'. There's no real fundamental difference between picking priorities and the decision to move your ship left or right in combat outside of graphics and the increasing number of different variables that can arise from any particular decision in the latter due to the more complicated nature of the scenario. At the end of the day all you're doing is making choices within the confines of the game and seeing how those choices play out against an opponent who, in turn, is making similar decisions based on the same set of rules. Picking priorities is certainly far simpler, less enjoyable and presents fewer outcomes but the fundamental concept is the same.

It should also probably be noted that there's no 'skill' to boarding as presently implemented nor in your own suggestion. It's purely numbers and chance. Like I said, my idea simply alters the packaging, no more.

Edit:

Rereading your post I do think you have a point in that during a manual combat you have the option to reply to the actions of the opponent, which is a level beyond what the priorities offer. However, you could easily incorporate that into the boarding mini-game if so desired by allowing both sides to alter their priorities during combat, potentially an option based off your command points or the experience of your marines?



Quote from: Gothars
I don't mind some show value, but it should not result in a scenario where you have to make decisions that don't matter. If you have a good idea how this could made better looking or more exciting without encumbering the flow of the game, let's have it. I don't see how that's possible at the moment.

As far as I'm aware at no point has anyone suggested a scenario where you would have to make decisions that didn't matter.

I have already made my suggestion to expand on the boarding element of the game. I could add to it if you'd like but I think there's enough concept material there for it to be judged on that basis.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 09:16:49 AM by Veneke »
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2012, 09:40:39 AM »

Mh.
The difference is fundamental, one the one hand you have a uninformed decision which equals luck. That it was the mini game is or playing the lottery or a game of Battleship with only one round.
On the other hand you have a series of informed decisions, picking the right ones demands skill.  That it was the combat in SF is or a conversation or a game of Chess.

Don't know how else to explain it. Maybe you already realized this with your edit.

Edit:
Rereading your post I do think you have a point in that during a manual combat you have the option to reply to the actions of the opponent, which is a level beyond what the priorities offer. However, you could easily incorporate that into the boarding mini-game if so desired by allowing both sides to alter their priorities during combat, potentially an option based off your command points or the experience of your marines?

Dude, now you arrived at a run-of-the-mill boarding minigame. I will just quote myself here:

I totally get what you are saying, just before I came up with the current idea I had the design of a boarding mini-game that I was going to suggest half finished. It had to do with marine squads progressing through a ship along squares (like the armor you see in the HUD) and clearing out pockets of resistance. But then I asked myself: do I really want to play a half-assed minigame over and over again? Even if it's fun at the beginning, it can't be too complex, so there's no way it would stay fun as long as the main game. And at one point I'd just want to know the outcome of a boarding action and click on autoresolve anyway. So why not make the autoresolve function interesting from the start? And that's that.



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Veneke

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2012, 01:08:29 PM »

Mh.
The difference is fundamental, one the one hand you have a uninformed decision which equals luck. That it was the mini game is or playing the lottery or a game of Battleship with only one round.
On the other hand you have a series of informed decisions, picking the right ones demands skill.  That it was the combat in SF is or a conversation or a game of Chess.

Don't know how else to explain it. Maybe you already realized this with your edit.

Eh, look - I don't much care about arguing about and, frankly, it doesn't matter too much. There's probably a really interesting debate in here but it's entirely irrelevant to the point at hand and frankly the whole perceived issue would seem to be easily resolved by simply allowing the player to alter priorities mid-combat.

If you want to continue this via pm, by all means shoot me one, but I think I've taken this off-topic enough already. So I'll leave that at that.



Quote from: Gothars

Dude, now you arrived at a run-of-the-mill boarding minigame. I will just quote myself here:

I totally get what you are saying, just before I came up with the current idea I had the design of a boarding mini-game that I was going to suggest half finished. It had to do with marine squads progressing through a ship along squares (like the armor you see in the HUD) and clearing out pockets of resistance. But then I asked myself: do I really want to play a half-assed minigame over and over again? Even if it's fun at the beginning, it can't be too complex, so there's no way it would stay fun as long as the main game. And at one point I'd just want to know the outcome of a boarding action and click on autoresolve anyway. So why not make the autoresolve function interesting from the start? And that's that.

What I proposed is absolutely nothing like that. I'm not even sure what a 'run-of-the-mill boarding minigame' even is, to be honest with you. I'm not aware of any standard for simulating boarding actions in games like this or even in general. The closest I can think of is something like Alien Assault which, again, is nothing like what I suggested.

I would also point out that you didn't make the boarding autoresolve function interesting, you made it the only option. There is no manual boarding function in your suggestion. It goes from 'Board?' to 'Result.' with a single button click. Don't get me wrong though, there's lots to be said for doing that and adding a greater element of boarding to space combat is a genius idea that's far better than what we have currently. The point I was building on, that others have also expressed, is the desire to see something other than a de facto autoresolve for the the boarding process.
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Gothars

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Re: Make boarding a real choice
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2012, 02:29:40 PM »

What I proposed is absolutely nothing like that. I'm not even sure what a 'run-of-the-mill boarding minigame' even is, to be honest with you. I'm not aware of any standard for simulating boarding actions in games like this or even in general. The closest I can think of is something like Alien Assault which, again, is nothing like what I suggested.

I'm not talking about the inner workings of your minigame or implying they are bad. And I really get the inclination to have a involved and exciting boarding experience. I think ship boarding has a lot of potential for a great game. A real game, though.
My problem is with minigames in general. Honest question: do you like to play mandatory minigames? I think at best they are nice at the beginning and only mildly annoying later on. At worst they can drag the entire game down with them. Mass Effect's planet scanning, Assasin's Creed's tower defense, Final Fantasy X's blitzball, hacking and lock-picking in various games... It just isn't fun to put a simplistic game into a bigger one and force the player to play again and again.

For a boarding game to be engaging on the long run it had to be really complex, almost at much as the ship-to-ship combat. Frozen Synapse would be a fantastic basis for something like this. But it is impossible to implement something that complex, for various reason.

 
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