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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

Author Topic: Some suggestions  (Read 6104 times)

Ocelot

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Some suggestions
« on: January 05, 2012, 06:56:56 AM »

Alex - I sent you a note with this info in it already, but I wanted to make sure I posted it in the Suggestions thread in order to invite additional feedback and comments from the community. 

After playing the game (and loving it) for many, many hours, here is a list of some initial suggestions organized by short, medium and long term priorities:


Short Term:

1. Ability to Assign ships "stop and hold position" orders - i've noticed that quite often ships will engage the enemy and over-pursue during a fight, even when they are outnumbered and outclassed.  This often results in ships being destroyed due to their lack of caution.  Even telling a ship to "Defend" or "Patrol" an area can still mean that it will go far outside of its assigned zone and quickly run into enemy opposition.  Telling a ship to hold ground would be very useful.  This is similar to the option in many RTS games where units can be set to "attack stance" or "hold ground" stance.

1b. On a related point, the current "Defend" and "Patrol" actions are difficult to distinguish in functionality.  Although i don't know the code behind the game, from the many hours that I played, I could not readily distinguish one action from the other.  In both cases, ships seemed to initially go to the location marked as defend or patrol, and then over-pursue enemies and go far beyond that location into distant areas on the map.  I suggest replacing these 2 orders with a single "Rally Point" order and then each ship would have the option to "Go to Rally Point and hold position" or "Go to Rally point and aggressively defend the position by pursuing enemy ships that venture close to the Rally point."  There may be other, more elegant solutions, that I am not thinking of right now, but overall I would suggest that the functionality of the "defend" and "patrol" orders be revisited.

2. Ability to Assign multiple consecutive actions by "shift-clicking" on multiple places in a map and spending 1 command point per action.  Sometimes it is very helpful to "queue" up commands, such as telling a group of small, agile fighters to capture several strategic points in a row.  Currently, after completing their assigned action, it is difficult to tell what a ship will do and it makes it harder to strategically control the battlefield or plan ahead.

3. UI Enhancements to the deployment screen that can be accessed by pressing the "G" button.  Currently the screen only shows if a ship has been deployed or not. You can also see the flux and hull status of a ship, but only by clicking on each ship individually.  I suggest that the status screen be significantly expanded and that the following information be added:

Ship flux/health status for friendly ships - clearly displayed as two bars above the picture of each ship
Friendly ships: Active ships colored green (as they are now), with the status "Deployed" clearly displayed below the picture of the ship
Friendly ships: Destroyed/Incapacitated/Fled ships colored red or dark grey, with their status displayed below the picture of the ship and the point value lost displayed on top of the picture of the ship
Enemy ships: Active ships that are visible on your radar colored green, with the status "Deployed" clearly displayed below the picture of the ship and with health/flux bars above the ship picture
Enemy ships: Destroyed/Incapacitated/Fled ships colored red or dark grey, with the status clearly displayed below the picture of the ship and the point value you won for destroying/incapacitating that ship displayed on top of the picture of the ship
Enemy ships: Active ships that are not visible on your radar colored dark grey, with the status labeled as "unknown location" and a question mark symbol displayed on top of the picture of the ship
The goal is to provide a quick, "at a glance" view of the entire battle from a single screen.  It's very helpful to know which of your ships are close to full health and which ones are about to be destroyed.  It's also very helpful to know if any enemy ships are about to be eliminated due to low health and also how many ships the opponent has remaining (even if you don't know their exact location due to "fog of war"). This type of general status screen would make it much easier to plan out high level strategy for the entire battle.

4. On the current map, whenever a ship is assigned an action, there is an orange or green arrow that extends away from the ship and points towards the objective it is currently assigned to.  These arrows work great for visibly showing where each ship is going, but when there are too many ships on the screen, it is often difficult to trace the tip of the arrow all the way back to the ship.  This is because the arrows have some shading on them.  At the tip of the arrow, they are a darker, more fuller green but near the ship they are a very light, barely visible green.  If two or three ships are right on top of each other, you can't tell which arrow belongs to which ship.  I suggest a simple fix - clicking on the arrow should highlight the ship it belongs to.  This will also help in selecting ships, since when they are on top of each other, it's sometimes difficult to click on the one you want to select.

Medium Term:

1. Creation of more unique, click-to-activate, ship abilities.  Currently, each ship has a selection of weapons to choose from.  It can be argued that most of the weapons should be set to auto-fire, while missiles should be manually fired by the player.  In a way, missiles represent a "ship ability" , while the other weapons represent the "generic attack" of a unit.  When I say "ship ability" I am referring to the set of actions that meet the following criteria:

a. They need to be manually activated
b. Manually activating them adds an element of skill or strategy to the game.  For example, choosing exactly when to fire a missile is a strategic decision best left to the player.  Similarly, choosing when to vent your flux is another strategic (and very skillful) action that is best left to the player.
c. They have limited use or have a long cooldown effect. For example, since there are only a few missiles on each ship, the decision about when to use each one becomes very interesting and important and should therefore be left to the player.
d. They can have dramatic, game changing impact on the game - but can also be completely wasted if used without caution or forethought.  Using a missile at just the right time can cripple an enemy ship and venting flux at the last possible moment can turn the tide of battle.  Alternatively, missiles can be wasted or even used to harm the player's ship if fired too close and venting flux at the wrong moment can leave a ship stranded and waiting for death.

Missiles and flux (and shields for that matte) represent "ship abilities" that are already in the game.  I suggest that others be created that follow the same guidelines as illustrated above (points a thru d).  Here are just a few thoughts:

a. Ability to deploy mines
b. Ability to create a "gravity field" on the map where ships that pass through it have their movement decreased or altered in some way
c. Ability to engage thrusters and get a temporary, very high speed boost
d. Ability to cloak
e. Ability to self destruct
g. Ability to set warp points and warp between them

I don't want to get carried away, although it is easy to brainstorm a million other cool abilities.  Of course, keeping things simple is key, so perhaps limiting things to only one ability per ship and assigning it to a hot-key like Q would keep things manageable while adding a good deal of tactics and strategy. 

Long Term:

There are many elements that can be suggested for long term implementation, and I will quickly acknowledge that you know and understand the long term plan for Starfarer way better than I do.  I don't want to throw you of course or distract you from your current long term plans, so I will just throw out just two suggestion to keep "in the back of your head."

1. Somehow involve planets in the game using some (or all) of the above factors.

a. Let planets each have their own gravitational field that impacts the movement of ships that venture too close to them
b. Allow planets to have defensive installations such as planetary defense lasers or short range fighters or minefields that make it difficult to get close to them and that can be the cornerstone of certain missions focused on taking over key planets

2. Create additional "space obstacles" or objectives beyond the current floating asteroids and stationary objectives.  Just a few random suggestions:

b. create moving objectives in addition to stationary ones
c. create warp gates or zones
d. create "gravity fields" where ships move slower, are harder to target, have malfunctioning weapons or which have other effects on ships that move into them
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Alex

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »

Hi - thanks for your feeback and suggestions!

Re: making things more RTS-like - in brief, that's what I wanted to move away from with this new control scheme. This blog post talks about the motivations in detail.

As far as Defend vs Patrol, yeah, it's probably hard to tell them apart at the moment. Patrol gets lighter ships, and only a few of them, while Defend gets anything and everything combat-capable, though with a lower priority than most other assignments (such as Assault). Tooltips added in the dev version explain these in detail and indicate the priority for each assignment.

As far as what "Defend" actually means to the AI, it's not as clear-cut as "hold this point". The assignment is to protect the point from enemy ships - and that can mean engaging them at some distance away. If the enemy gets closer to the point, the defenders will try to fall back - but otherwise, they try to maintain an aggressive defense and engage the enemy when it's possible to do without exposing the point they're tasked with defending.

I do think that 3 & 4 are good points, though the map view itself is intended to be that "see-everything-at-a-glance" overview.

1. Creation of more unique, click-to-activate, ship abilities.  Currently, each ship has a selection of weapons to choose from.  It can be argued that most of the weapons should be set to auto-fire, while missiles should be manually fired by the player.  In a way, missiles represent a "ship ability" , while the other weapons represent the "generic attack" of a unit.  When I say "ship ability" I am referring to the set of actions that meet the following criteria:

Completely agree - in fact, active ship systems have been on the roadmap for a while. Afterburners, teleporters, chaff launchers, etc. I'm thinking to limit it to 1-2 per ship (w/ Q and E being the default key binds, oddly enough - that's why those keys are still unassigned!).

As far as auto-fire, there've been some balance changes to the dev version that rewards a more judicious use of weapons, though autofire is still something you want to use often, especially for turreted weapons.

Oh, and just want to mention - gravity is already in, sort of. You get a max speed boost near planets, simulating the ability to do a gravity whip around it. I'd tried adding more a more true-to-physics version of gravity early on, and it just didn't work well with the rest of the game. It's hard to explain exactly, but the feel was terrible, and I couldn't improve it significantly.


Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. We'll definitely be revisiting combat and improving what's there/adding features (such as the somewhat-recently-added damageable ship modules), although for now the main focus is on the sandbox aspect of the game.
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Ocelot

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 11:47:41 AM »

Thank you for your thoughts Alex - just one follow-up comment that maybe you or someone else on the forum can help me with.  Currently, when I play missions in the game where my fleet is significantly out-gunned and out-clased, I find that these missions are made much more difficult by the fact that my ships act very aggressively and engage enemy ships even if the odds of winning are almost none.  This was the main reason behind my suggestion about having a command that tells ships to "hold the position and not move."  Without such a command, my ships tend to run off and get themselves killed rather quickly (even when assigned to defend or patrol various sectors of the map).  Is there perhaps something in the game I am missing that would tell my ships to stand still or take a non-aggressive stance?  If not - is there a design reason for leaving it out.  It's probably the most frustrating element that I've encountered when trying to complete missions where my fleet is vastly underpowered and must rely on careful movement in order to win. 

That being said, the rest of your feedback makes perfect sense, and I'm especially excited that new ship abilities are on the horizon!
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Alex

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 12:10:01 PM »

Do you have a specific mission in mind? If it's "Dire Straits", you're pretty much supposed to lose, though I understand some people around here have actually beaten it :)

Without having a specific mission to talk about... it sounds like you're maybe spreading the forces too thin? Try limiting it to a single Assault or Defend assignment, along with a Rally Carrier Group and, optionally, a Rally Fire Support, after the initial captures. Patrol, in all honesty, isn't very useful right now.

Once initial contact is made, it's going to be hard to extricate forces that are already engaged - running away carries a lot of danger, especially for larger ships, so they'll tend to stick it out as the safer option, unless specifically ordered to retreat from battle entirely - which, if they're in the middle of an engagement, will likely kill them.

I don't think standing still would help the ships survive all that much longer - they'd simply be more isolated, and have less room to maneuver. They might buy an extra few seconds before making contact, but that's about it.
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Ocelot

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 02:37:28 PM »

I was able to beat Dire Straits with a 44% completion - but actually that is not the one on my mind.

The best example I can think to illustrate my point is the "Predator or Prey" mission.  I have beaten it with a current high score of 54%.  The main reason for the low score is that in order to destroy the enemy ships, it's very hard not to take significant casualties on my side.  In fact, in my many attempts at the mission, I've come to realize that the Talon Interceptor Wing, the Heavy Fighter Wings and the other ships in my arsenal, are no match for what the enemy has.  The only ship that can hold its ground is my flagship, the HSS Shogun.  One strategy for winning is to blast through enemy lines and confront the enemy mothership (the Astral Class Carrier).  This strategy works, but often results in heavy casualties - as I've said, I can't get above 54% on the mission.

However, I was able to come up with an entirely different strategy that almost succeeded, if not for my fighters' Kamikazee-like desire to engage in battles they are destined to lose.  Here is what I did:

I sent my entire fleet of ships (except for the HSS Shogun) to the bottom left portion of the map.  I then advanced the HSS Shogun towards the center of the map, where I engaged enemy forces.  Then, with very careful maneuvering, I slowly navigated my ship from the center to the bottom left corner, where the rest of my fleet was patiently waiting.  As the enemy fighters over-persued the HSS Shogun, they were met by the bulk of my fleet.  In this way, I was able to draw out the fighters 1 by 1 and pick them off individually.  While the enemy had overall better ships, they were able to be taken down when my forces attacked en masse.  This strategy was working perfectly, until some of my smaller ships began to over-persue.  Instead of holding back and staying behind the HSS Shogun and in close proximity to the Condor Class carrier where they could refuel and resupply, they ventured deep into enemy territory.  What seemed like a winning strategy, quickly fell apart as my ships began making the very same mistake as the enemy.  As soon as my ships pulled away from where I told them to Defend and stay put, they got massacred by the enemy forces. 

So this is just one example where a working strategy was undone by a lack of a "stay put" command.  I think that having such a command in-game would significantly increase the strategic options available to a player as it would allow tactics that involve "baiting" the enemy into traps where a large portion of the players fleet would be waiting. 

Funny enough, I employed a similar strategy on the mission called "Nothing Personal" and it worked once - I scored a 97%, losing only 1 ship in the process.
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Muffalopadus

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 03:30:46 PM »

Ocelot - sneaky sneaky!  Thats a pretty neat solution.

I was wondering if you could set a threat level for specific kinds of ships.  For example, you may want your fighters to avoid a specific ship that has significant countermeasures.  Gratuitous Space Battles has sort of a system like that -the ships are given orders as to where they should mostly spend their aggro on. 

I guess a system like that was more important in GSB, since you had no control over your units...but still, just a thought.  Isn't that what this forum is for? =)

I also really like the idea of Q/E being some sort of special ability.
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Ocelot

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 04:19:30 PM »

I think there is a related point that may make this discussion somewhat obsolete - will the missions continue to be scored on a 100% scale?

If missions or objectives in the game are scored as either "completed" or "not completed" then players only have to worry about beating them, regardless of how they do it.  Winning "in style" is no different than "winning ugly"...a win is a win if the only thing that counts is just beating the mission.

However, the current missions are each rated on a 0 to 100 scale.  This inherently implies that a player can play the mission over and over and try to get a perfect score of 100%.  Such a system means that winning isn't the only thing that matters - how you win is almost as important.  Personally, I think this is great.  It adds to replayability and challenge and it encourages players to come up with creative solutions to each mission, trying to get closer and closer to a perfect score. 

However, this system completely falls apart if some missions are so hard, or so unbalanced that a score of 100% is impossible.  Similarly, if some game mechanics do not allow a fine enough level of control and maneuverability in order to ensure that no ship is destroyed, then 100% is also not a possible score - and the scoring system becomes frustrating rather than encouraging.  My unspoken assumption was that the mission scoring was going to stay in the game long term and that each mission in the game would have a 0 through 100 score.  I also thought that this was intended to encourage players to play missions repeatedly and innovate new and brilliant tactics for beating them.  Based on these assumptions, I suggested having something like a "wait here and don't move" button.  However, these types of things are much less necessary if each mission will just be a "Pass/Fail" type of thing, without any scoring.

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Flare

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 08:50:23 PM »

I was able to beat Dire Straits with a 44% completion - but actually that is not the one on my mind.

The best example I can think to illustrate my point is the "Predator or Prey" mission.  I have beaten it with a current high score of 54%....

I got nearly above 80% with that one. I was by sheer luck that I encountered the astral carrier ship first. Being a big ass ship and possessing all those laser beams, I got lucky in that my haphazard slew of torpedoes turned out to be well aimed. I didn't even have to finish it, the carrier turned around and went on its merry way after it received a full salvo of those torpedoes.

Everything then was a cake walk as I could just mass my forces and wreck the rest of the enemy fleet.
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ollobrains

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 03:32:33 AM »

a lot of later missions will be random proceduaral generation so u go into each one maybe with a general idea of what to expect but each encounter ( perhaps scouting could improve things) but with a random outcome and lots of options to get it done or to loose it
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Alex

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 01:48:10 PM »

I was able to beat Dire Straits with a 44% completion - but actually that is not the one on my mind.

The best example I can think to illustrate my point is the "Predator or Prey" mission.  I have beaten it with a current high score of 54%.  The main reason for the low score is that in order to destroy the enemy ships, it's very hard not to take significant casualties on my side.  In fact, in my many attempts at the mission, I've come to realize that the Talon Interceptor Wing, the Heavy Fighter Wings and the other ships in my arsenal, are no match for what the enemy has.  The only ship that can hold its ground is my flagship, the HSS Shogun.  One strategy for winning is to blast through enemy lines and confront the enemy mothership (the Astral Class Carrier).  This strategy works, but often results in heavy casualties - as I've said, I can't get above 54% on the mission.

However, I was able to come up with an entirely different strategy that almost succeeded, if not for my fighters' Kamikazee-like desire to engage in battles they are destined to lose.  Here is what I did:

I sent my entire fleet of ships (except for the HSS Shogun) to the bottom left portion of the map.  I then advanced the HSS Shogun towards the center of the map, where I engaged enemy forces.  Then, with very careful maneuvering, I slowly navigated my ship from the center to the bottom left corner, where the rest of my fleet was patiently waiting.  As the enemy fighters over-persued the HSS Shogun, they were met by the bulk of my fleet.  In this way, I was able to draw out the fighters 1 by 1 and pick them off individually.  While the enemy had overall better ships, they were able to be taken down when my forces attacked en masse.  This strategy was working perfectly, until some of my smaller ships began to over-persue.  Instead of holding back and staying behind the HSS Shogun and in close proximity to the Condor Class carrier where they could refuel and resupply, they ventured deep into enemy territory.  What seemed like a winning strategy, quickly fell apart as my ships began making the very same mistake as the enemy.  As soon as my ships pulled away from where I told them to Defend and stay put, they got massacred by the enemy forces. 

So ironically, your strategy fell victim to the same AI behavior that enabled it in the first place? :) I'd probably call it AI abuse rather than a strategy - nothing wrong with that, of course, but that's definitely an instance of the enemy admiral AI falling on its face. I'm happy to report that in the next version, it's not going to fall for this sort of piecemeal dismantlement.

I think the main thing that needs improvement is fighter AI. The rest of the ships, especially frigates, seem to do a good job staying alive already.

So this is just one example where a working strategy was undone by a lack of a "stay put" command.  I think that having such a command in-game would significantly increase the strategic options available to a player as it would allow tactics that involve "baiting" the enemy into traps where a large portion of the players fleet would be waiting. 

The reason I don't want to put that in is it would increase the micromanagement burden significantly. You'd have to frequently toggle between "stay put" and "engage" and in general babysit your ships, and that's just not a direction I want to go. I'd rather addess any issues that crop up by improving the AI and adding/modifying assignments so you can paint in the right broad strokes.


I think there is a related point that may make this discussion somewhat obsolete - will the missions continue to be scored on a 100% scale?

If missions or objectives in the game are scored as either "completed" or "not completed" then players only have to worry about beating them, regardless of how they do it.  Winning "in style" is no different than "winning ugly"...a win is a win if the only thing that counts is just beating the mission.

However, the current missions are each rated on a 0 to 100 scale.  This inherently implies that a player can play the mission over and over and try to get a perfect score of 100%.  Such a system means that winning isn't the only thing that matters - how you win is almost as important.  Personally, I think this is great.  It adds to replayability and challenge and it encourages players to come up with creative solutions to each mission, trying to get closer and closer to a perfect score. 

However, this system completely falls apart if some missions are so hard, or so unbalanced that a score of 100% is impossible.  Similarly, if some game mechanics do not allow a fine enough level of control and maneuverability in order to ensure that no ship is destroyed, then 100% is also not a possible score - and the scoring system becomes frustrating rather than encouraging.  My unspoken assumption was that the mission scoring was going to stay in the game long term and that each mission in the game would have a 0 through 100 score.  I also thought that this was intended to encourage players to play missions repeatedly and innovate new and brilliant tactics for beating them.  Based on these assumptions, I suggested having something like a "wait here and don't move" button.  However, these types of things are much less necessary if each mission will just be a "Pass/Fail" type of thing, without any scoring.

Mission scoring was never intended to be a long-term thing. It's really just a quick gauge of how well you did, and it's not implied that you could get 100% on every mission. 100% represents complete success - all enemy disabled, no friendly ships lost. It's a theoretical maximum, rather than something that's guaranteed to be achievable.

Do note that this scoring system won't exist at all in the campaign, which is going to be the meat of the game.
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Ocelot

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 02:09:34 PM »

I can't wait to try out the next version - if ship AI will be significantly improved, it will be very fun to see how the missions play out differently.

I agree that my solution has the drawback of more micromanagement, and I'll be very happy to see the problem go away by simply a better, more improved AI for the ships.  If that works, I guess you can't get more elegant than that  ;D

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Lopunny Zen

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Re: Some suggestions
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 05:46:03 AM »

you have trouble with the arrows...come on...i can easily backtrack them so that shouldnt be a problem...then again im a gaming genius...but still i manage to find the ships...and i edited the random to give me a bunch of fighters and bombers with a carrier so i dont see that being a problem
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