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Author Topic: Problems with broadside logic  (Read 7525 times)

xenoargh

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Problems with broadside logic
« on: September 19, 2012, 10:46:33 PM »

Basically, the ship AI isn't handling long, skinny ships well, and I think it needs a rule change.  If the majority of the weapons are restricted to an arc that's pointed to either + / - 60 to + / - 120 degrees, or if the largest total DPS lies into those areas, the ship needs to use the broadside logic (i.e., attempt to circle the target or cross the T, instead of using strafe).  If both sides are even, it needs to pick a direction to circle and stick with it, probably for the rest of the battle, as if it picks randomly each time the AI picks a new target, it tends to do more harm than good.

That this isn't working right atm was revealed pretty massively when I built this guy:


All those side-arc weapons were Medium Ballistic, with a combined DPS that far-outweighed anything in the forward arc.  The ship didn't perform adequately until I allowed all those turrets to face fully forwards, however, and tried to face forwards regardless.  This problem also plagues the un-modded Conquerer.
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Ghoti

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 03:20:31 AM »

I'm not seeing this behavior. Certainly I've seen times where the AI didn't pick the best angle of overlapping arcs on some broadside ships. I've never seen an outright focus on only front facing weapons except in cases where the AI isn't happy about its position.

If you're testing AI vs AI fights, the problem is that the AI in starfarer plays a very nasty game on the player (and tries to play it on other AI). It will always retreat, it never takes the initiative. Why don't you add your ship to the sim_opponents.csv and see if it still exhibits that behavior when you are flying at it.
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Alex

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 08:26:33 AM »

The broadside AI isn't meant to handle broadside arcs that are less than what's on the current Conquest. Sounds like the ones on this ship are too narrow. So, not a bug - merely not a supported feature :)
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 10:41:16 AM »

Means we just have to wait until ai modding for being able to set such broadside angles for the ai :P

Problem only really shows up when you have really narrow broadside angles, and your ship turns as much as a conquest to "try" and broadside,
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Sproginator

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 01:30:09 PM »

I don't understand why we don't just have a small option within the ship.csv file to be able to assign a specific ship behaviour? It would be a lot more easy
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GUNINANRUNIN

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 01:32:56 PM »

I don't understand why we don't just have a small option within the ship.csv file to be able to assign a specific ship behaviour? It would be a lot more easy
Won't ship behaviors come along with officer personalities?

EDIT: Looking back at this post, I realize it was utterly ridiculous.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 10:07:00 AM by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Alex

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 01:39:37 PM »

I don't understand why we don't just have a small option within the ship.csv file to be able to assign a specific ship behaviour? It would be a lot more easy

Not for this type of thing, it entirely depends on the weapon loadout. Besides, I'm almost sure the AI is already properly recognizing it's a broadside ship. It's just not able to use it well, given the ship's parameters. Unless I'm missing what the ship's weapon arcs look like - hard to tell from that graphic alone.
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Ghoti

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 01:44:47 PM »

is the broadside detection really just a yes/no thing?
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Alex

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 01:46:26 PM »

is the broadside detection really just a yes/no thing?

No. Which side, at what range, what weapons are disabled/out of ammo/don't need to be aimed, etc.
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Reshy

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 02:05:56 PM »

Broadside logic could be better, and I do think that the idea about having broadside ships fly circles instead of strafing around targets would be a good idea.
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Ghoti

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 02:17:35 PM »

is the broadside detection really just a yes/no thing?

No. Which side, at what range, what weapons are disabled/out of ammo/don't need to be aimed, etc.

and if all that is true, point the ship ~45 degrees away from the target?
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xenoargh

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 09:15:53 AM »

The weapons were originally designed to be at right angles and to have 120-degree arcs, i.e. nothing on the broadsides faced fully forwards. 

To be remotely efficient, it would have to do circling behavior, not a face-forwards-then-twist behavior, which is what it occasionally tried to do.  This is an edge-case thing, because, in theory, it can do "more damage" by facing the target at an angle, but this screws up the ship's manuevers and makes it waste delta-v, making it considerably less efficient in chasing fights, whereas if it circled, it would not be able to kite, but any enemy entering the circle faces the maximum possible number of guns.

Anyhow, I fixed it the same way I fixed the Conquest, by allowing the arcs to reach full forwards.  Then it starts behaving efficiently, but it's twice as powerful as planned ;)
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Ghoti

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 09:37:28 AM »

wasting delta-v?

when the ship fires it slows it down by a large amount. Same thing happens to turning speed. I bet if you take off the guns in the front, you'll find chasing behavior is better.
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xenoargh

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2012, 11:55:21 AM »

Strafe speeds aren't the same as forward speeds, and although the velocity caps on ships hide it to some degree, when a ship isn't perfectly facing the opponent, it's using up delta-v on a vector that won't take it nearer to the enemy.  That velocity then has to be corrected for, hence it's a waste of delta-v. 

In kiting situations, wasting delta-v is bad, because it means your enemy can either catch you or that you can't catch them.  What I want to see is an AI behavior that deliberately avoids kiting and just goes for broadsides, when that's where the overwhelming majority of the DPS is :)
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Ghoti

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Re: Problems with broadside logic
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2012, 03:43:11 PM »

You know I thought that was for the AI personalities. I'm not sure if that does anything right now.

2 things I'll mention. You only get better acceleration (not delta-V, these ships don't seem to use propellant for in system travel) for forward thrust. The best behavior in that case is to jam forwards towards an enemy then coast. They don't get the benefit of reverse. In that case it's the break key, which will give you the same acceleration in any direction. The other thing is about the alternative strategy. More or less: I don't get it. Could you demonstrate with a video or something?
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