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Author Topic: Boarding  (Read 28145 times)

LostInTheWired

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2012, 02:51:31 AM »

But what will you hack? Door? And what if door is locked from inside with something mechanical, that can be only unlock from inside?
And pods that have equipment that can cut hull with given time... Yes, ok, but ship would have sensors for that or something like that so they would know when someone is trying to cut. Then, they would send marine team at given spot to wait cutters, and when they pierce hole, well, marines would take care of them  ;D

Like I said, hacking's just silly.  Has nothing to do with it.

And of course they'll have sensors.  Of course they'll know.  Of course they'll send a marine team.  That's the thing!  It's extremely dangerous!  That's the thing with the marines in this game though.  As it is, we know they have exosuits.  That will at least be some defense.  It's still two highly trained teams of marines (both trained in boarding and anti-boarding tactics) going tit for tat.  There's only a few scenarios where it's a viable option.
  • When the target ship has been pummeled to oblivion, causing enough crew/marine death that one ships marine compliment can overcome the others.
  • When the target ship is overtly outnumbered, and multiple ships can get their boarding parties on board.
  • In an act of desperation, to stall the ship in question, sacrificing marines for the possible safety of the ship.

With boarding, the MAIN idea is NOT capture!  It's a way to balance the odds.  Damaging systems, bringing whatever weapons/systems offline that they can.  Surviving as long as they can.  Only in overwhelming force or mitigating circumstances is it about capture.  Our marines are well trained, in expensive armor, but still extremely expendable.  On the over-all scale, they are cheap.  You better have at least double the marines of the target ship to even think about full capture.  And as it is, on the death of a ship, only a fraction of the marines that made it on board, survived to disable systems, and fought their way through marines will be able to make it to their pod in time to escape the ship's explosion, which could possibly kill them there (but obviously not all, since crew survive that explosion in the game currently).  And then getting back to the pod.

I never said it should be easy.  It should DEFINITELY be a huge decision to go through with a boarding operation, but the possibility is nice to have.  Committing marines in X3 was a huge decision in the game if you don't save scum.  Literally 10 hours real life training time at 10xSETA for elite marines.  That feeling when they're away is not of excitement, it is dread.  It is as if pressing the button to launch those marines was the lighting of the funeral pyres.  But the anxiety and suspense, listening to them punch through the systems, fight through the marines, listening to death throes of some of your best marines, then finally hearing their success is a feeling of pure exultation.  It is something that I think would be worth the time to at least seriously consider.
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arcibalde

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2012, 10:46:31 AM »

Like I said, hacking's just silly.  Has nothing to do with it.

And of course they'll have sensors.  Of course they'll know.  Of course they'll send a marine team.  That's the thing!  It's extremely dangerous!  That's the thing with the marines in this game though.  As it is, we know they have exosuits.  That will at least be some defense.  It's still two highly trained teams of marines (both trained in boarding and anti-boarding tactics) going tit for tat.  There's only a few scenarios where it's a viable option.
  • When the target ship has been pummeled to oblivion, causing enough crew/marine death that one ships marine compliment can overcome the others.
  • When the target ship is overtly outnumbered, and multiple ships can get their boarding parties on board.
  • In an act of desperation, to stall the ship in question, sacrificing marines for the possible safety of the ship.

With boarding, the MAIN idea is NOT capture!  It's a way to balance the odds.  Damaging systems, bringing whatever weapons/systems offline that they can.  Surviving as long as they can.  Only in overwhelming force or mitigating circumstances is it about capture.  Our marines are well trained, in expensive armor, but still extremely expendable.  On the over-all scale, they are cheap.  You better have at least double the marines of the target ship to even think about full capture.  And as it is, on the death of a ship, only a fraction of the marines that made it on board, survived to disable systems, and fought their way through marines will be able to make it to their pod in time to escape the ship's explosion, which could possibly kill them there (but obviously not all, since crew survive that explosion in the game currently).  And then getting back to the pod.

I never said it should be easy.  It should DEFINITELY be a huge decision to go through with a boarding operation, but the possibility is nice to have.  Committing marines in X3 was a huge decision in the game if you don't save scum.  Literally 10 hours real life training time at 10xSETA for elite marines.  That feeling when they're away is not of excitement, it is dread.  It is as if pressing the button to launch those marines was the lighting of the funeral pyres.  But the anxiety and suspense, listening to them punch through the systems, fight through the marines, listening to death throes of some of your best marines, then finally hearing their success is a feeling of pure exultation.  It is something that I think would be worth the time to at least seriously consider.
DANG MAN! When you put it like that it's AWESOME  ;D  In my head i just got idea like, you click, pod go to enemy ship and after few second's ship is yours to command. That was thing that *** me of with S.P.A.Z. bloody zombies got all my ships all the time, not funny at all...

So, to have marines that can level up and after some level they got better gear and they can board other ships AND (this is big and) on enemy ship they can only disable it at best (entire ship) or disable systems like engines, weapons, shield etc.
BUT
Ship in Starfarer do not live long... With huge fleets i do not have long fights. I just discover Onslaught  ;D and his Build-In weapons, poor Conquest didn't last more then 20 sec... So, where is time frame when would you use boarding? I do not see it in this game, at least not in vanilla...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 10:48:08 AM by arcibalde »
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Aleskander

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2012, 12:21:39 PM »

But what will you hack? Door? And what if door is locked from inside with something mechanical, that can be only unlock from inside?
And pods that have equipment that can cut hull with given time... Yes, ok, but ship would have sensors for that or something like that so they would know when someone is trying to cut. Then, they would send marine team at given spot to wait cutters, and when they pierce hole, well, marines would take care of them  ;D

Like I said, hacking's just silly.  Has nothing to do with it.

And of course they'll have sensors.  Of course they'll know.  Of course they'll send a marine team.  That's the thing!  It's extremely dangerous!  That's the thing with the marines in this game though.  As it is, we know they have exosuits.  That will at least be some defense.  It's still two highly trained teams of marines (both trained in boarding and anti-boarding tactics) going tit for tat.  There's only a few scenarios where it's a viable option.
  • When the target ship has been pummeled to oblivion, causing enough crew/marine death that one ships marine compliment can overcome the others.
  • When the target ship is overtly outnumbered, and multiple ships can get their boarding parties on board.
  • In an act of desperation, to stall the ship in question, sacrificing marines for the possible safety of the ship.

With boarding, the MAIN idea is NOT capture!  It's a way to balance the odds.  Damaging systems, bringing whatever weapons/systems offline that they can.  Surviving as long as they can.  Only in overwhelming force or mitigating circumstances is it about capture.  Our marines are well trained, in expensive armor, but still extremely expendable.  On the over-all scale, they are cheap.  You better have at least double the marines of the target ship to even think about full capture.  And as it is, on the death of a ship, only a fraction of the marines that made it on board, survived to disable systems, and fought their way through marines will be able to make it to their pod in time to escape the ship's explosion, which could possibly kill them there (but obviously not all, since crew survive that explosion in the game currently).  And then getting back to the pod.

I never said it should be easy.  It should DEFINITELY be a huge decision to go through with a boarding operation, but the possibility is nice to have.  Committing marines in X3 was a huge decision in the game if you don't save scum.  Literally 10 hours real life training time at 10xSETA for elite marines.  That feeling when they're away is not of excitement, it is dread.  It is as if pressing the button to launch those marines was the lighting of the funeral pyres.  But the anxiety and suspense, listening to them punch through the systems, fight through the marines, listening to death throes of some of your best marines, then finally hearing their success is a feeling of pure exultation.  It is something that I think would be worth the time to at least seriously consider.

Considering how easy it was to have 200+ marines in training even in early/mid-game, I don't think loosing them was that bad
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LostInTheWired

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2012, 12:48:15 PM »

DANG MAN! When you put it like that it's AWESOME  ;D  In my head i just got idea like, you click, pod go to enemy ship and after few second's ship is yours to command. That was thing that *** me of with S.P.A.Z. bloody zombies got all my ships all the time, not funny at all...

So, to have marines that can level up and after some level they got better gear and they can board other ships AND (this is big and) on enemy ship they can only disable it at best (entire ship) or disable systems like engines, weapons, shield etc.
BUT
Ship in Starfarer do not live long... With huge fleets i do not have long fights. I just discover Onslaught  ;D and his Build-In weapons, poor Conquest didn't last more then 20 sec... So, where is time frame when would you use boarding? I do not see it in this game, at least not in vanilla...
Indeed.  During battle, the best that you get is the ship being disabled.  When it comes to capturing, the point is for it to be more likely to get the ship/get the ship in better condition than usual.  Spending that bit of extra time might be worth it now and then.  Like I said though, boarding operations mean you want something pretty specific.  Boarding to harass, or disable random systems.  Small boarding detachment (18 or so marines, more depending on the ship), they do what they can to screw with the ship, then run to the pods when they've taken serious casualties or the ship blows.  The other is Boarding to capture.  That's the one that takes the time and the resources.  The idea is when you throw down a capture order, the fleet sends out enough marines that they think could capture.  Safely, let's say 1.5x-2x the marines they have, and they hold fire, other than kinetic weapons to disable shields when the pods are trying to get to the ship.  It's an "end of the battle" order, one where you go "I've done this battle well, I want to risk getting something extra."  Then it's all the boarding fun, and the defenses against it.

I think this is something to talk about, too.  3 major defenses.  The very first line of defense against boarding, and this one is important, is point defense.  Getting marines past that should be a nightmare.  Overload them then launch like crazy sort of thing, or disable their pd briefly during combat (like we already see) and notice the opening.  The second is shields, which is kind of a "pod fly into it, pod explode" sort of thing.  Keep those shields down, for sure!  The last line of defense, and one that you want to never get to, is on-board marines.  At the point that you are using marines for defense, something very wrong has happened.  They WILL be disabling random systems briefly (similar to the disables on taking damage), but if you have enough marines/crew, taking them out eventually won't be a big deal.

I think it could fit in the main game.  People just need to realize that doing it in the middle of a raging battle is probably not a good idea, unless desperate, or it's just a harassment team.  Boarding to capture is an extra.  It is a great deal of work for a big extra reward, and would happen during the mopping up stage.  That's just my opinion though, and I'm sure there are plenty that don't agree with me. ^^
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Upgradecap

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2012, 02:00:30 PM »

I'd like to have the shield(s!) as a system too, so that it could also potentially be disabled during combat/boarding, and therefor increasing the risk of boarding.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2012, 02:01:46 PM »

Wouldn't it just be easier to use EMP at that point?

I'd imagine boarders would keep systems disabled for longer (maybe even disable them for the entire fight), but I would think either using EMP or outright destroying them would be much easier than doing all of that boarding stuff.
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LostInTheWired

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2012, 04:38:49 PM »

Wouldn't it just be easier to use EMP at that point?

I'd imagine boarders would keep systems disabled for longer (maybe even disable them for the entire fight), but I would think either using EMP or outright destroying them would be much easier than doing all of that boarding stuff.
Boarding to disable systems would, I think, last longer.  Boarding is for the ships without EMP, or ragtag groups that can't afford a good ship with EMP, or groups whose sole goal is capture and loot (like pirates).  Plus, it's just plain exciting.  XD
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PCCL

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2012, 04:54:27 PM »

EMP isn't exactly readily available to the low-techers (the people I imagine would make the most use of boarding)

Options are always good anyhow, no?

Maybe it can even be used as a quest mechanic (an UAC or a VIP that we need to save is on that ship, send a strike team)
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Rowanas

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2012, 02:52:24 AM »

In fairness, bug zappers are available to... one ship in vanilla? Two? Even when more ships make it in, unless you're buying from a specialist system, the tech required to produce ships with EMP on board is pretty high end stuff. An alternative should be available.
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Sr. Coronado

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2012, 09:19:51 PM »

This thread makes me think of Legend of the Galactic Heroes (aka: LoGH), which had a novel way to approach boarding.

Basically, a ship would ram another ship,
Spoiler
[close]
then, to attach itself to enemy ships, grappling hooks would fire, two from each corner of the prow, and secure the strike ship to the enemy hull. Four additional magnetic panels on each side of the prow aided in keeping a close secure attachment to the hull.
Spoiler
[close]
Underneath the upper prow turret was an extendable boarding tube, concealed behind an armoured door. Once the strike ship was securely attached this boarding tube would bore into the enemy hull allowing the troops within the strike ship to board and assault the crew of the target.
Spoiler
[close]
The powerful electromagnets would keep the ships intertwined.

Obviously, the biggest impediment would be shields (a boarding ship would probably have kinetic/ion weapons focused for close combat use) and the drill would wear away at the armor before the boarding could begin. This would likely be of more use against larger ships that couldn't evade the strike ship.

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xenoargh

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2012, 09:54:56 PM »

If that didn't sound pretty darn hard to execute, I'd love to see it.  Perhaps boarding ships could be made possible by allowing Fighters with boarding crews to "dock" with the opposing vessel; if they survive the process, then they immediately would start attacking the crew of the enemy vessel and disrupting systems.

Coupled with EMP more geared towards stunning a target vessel if enough burst damage hit it, this could work and be a really great way to handle boarding; it'd also get rid of the end-battle mechanics, but in a really good way; Marines could be lost if the shuttles got killed, etc. and boarding would take long enough that isolating a ship to be boarded and keeping it from getting torched by your fleet would be an interesting challenge.
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LostInTheWired

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2012, 02:31:18 AM »

If that didn't sound pretty darn hard to execute, I'd love to see it.  Perhaps boarding ships could be made possible by allowing Fighters with boarding crews to "dock" with the opposing vessel; if they survive the process, then they immediately would start attacking the crew of the enemy vessel and disrupting systems.

Coupled with EMP more geared towards stunning a target vessel if enough burst damage hit it, this could work and be a really great way to handle boarding; it'd also get rid of the end-battle mechanics, but in a really good way; Marines could be lost if the shuttles got killed, etc. and boarding would take long enough that isolating a ship to be boarded and keeping it from getting torched by your fleet would be an interesting challenge.

I completely agree.  I think it'd be great.  It's an extra challenge for a bit of an extra reward.  I always thought it'd be cool.  ^^
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GUNINANRUNIN

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2012, 10:16:47 AM »

This thread makes me think of Legend of the Galactic Heroes (aka: LoGH), which had a novel way to approach boarding.

Basically, a ship would ram another ship,
Spoiler
[close]
then, to attach itself to enemy ships, grappling hooks would fire, two from each corner of the prow, and secure the strike ship to the enemy hull. Four additional magnetic panels on each side of the prow aided in keeping a close secure attachment to the hull.
Spoiler
[close]
Underneath the upper prow turret was an extendable boarding tube, concealed behind an armoured door. Once the strike ship was securely attached this boarding tube would bore into the enemy hull allowing the troops within the strike ship to board and assault the crew of the target.
Spoiler
[close]
The powerful electromagnets would keep the ships intertwined.

Obviously, the biggest impediment would be shields (a boarding ship would probably have kinetic/ion weapons focused for close combat use) and the drill would wear away at the armor before the boarding could begin. This would likely be of more use against larger ships that couldn't evade the strike ship.


I think I just found a use for phase ships.
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Upgradecap

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2012, 10:19:20 AM »

This thread makes me think of Legend of the Galactic Heroes (aka: LoGH), which had a novel way to approach boarding.

Basically, a ship would ram another ship,
Spoiler
[close]
then, to attach itself to enemy ships, grappling hooks would fire, two from each corner of the prow, and secure the strike ship to the enemy hull. Four additional magnetic panels on each side of the prow aided in keeping a close secure attachment to the hull.
Spoiler
[close]
Underneath the upper prow turret was an extendable boarding tube, concealed behind an armoured door. Once the strike ship was securely attached this boarding tube would bore into the enemy hull allowing the troops within the strike ship to board and assault the crew of the target.
Spoiler
[close]
The powerful electromagnets would keep the ships intertwined.

Obviously, the biggest impediment would be shields (a boarding ship would probably have kinetic/ion weapons focused for close combat use) and the drill would wear away at the armor before the boarding could begin. This would likely be of more use against larger ships that couldn't evade the strike ship.


I think I just found a use for phase ships.

QFT
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Aleskander

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Re: Boarding
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2012, 01:20:41 PM »

So basically a boarding pod?
The physics/reasons would still apply, so according to this thread, no.
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