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Author Topic: Suggestion for Crowd Development  (Read 8927 times)

Warkrieg

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Suggestion for Crowd Development
« on: May 08, 2011, 07:35:02 AM »

Hey there fellow players + devs,

I stumbled across Starfarer today and was absolutely blown away by the concept and feel of the game. As a long-time fan of EVNova, this game felt new, fresh and ambitious to the point that I purchased it halfway through reading the "features" page. You guys have some serious vision...I was totally sold.

Having only played it for a few hours this evening, my intuition was completely on-base. The combat in this game is amazingly simple, yet hard to master...with enough nuances to keep a player for a long, long time if given an unlimited potential for storyline and side-game.

I have a suggestion for the overall development of this project, but I'll hold it for just a moment. Here are a few things that really struck me as ambitious and captivating:

# Explore hundreds of star systems to find habitable worlds, rich resource deposits, and advanced alien technology
# Impact the inter-stellar economy with your decisions – decide the fate of entire planetary systems
# Fight to bring stability and prosperity to the sector – or watch it burn while you take advantage of the chaos

I love that you guys have the vision for this kind of thing. It would be easy to lean on your combat system and make a game that reads as purely arcade. That would be fine, but would seriously lack the longevity that you guys are proposing. Simply put, if you pull off what you're planning on pulling off, this game could be the next Minecraft.

But the real gem here is that you plan on implementing a complete editor. One thing that really bothered me about EVNova is that it was nearly impossible to mod your own ships. In a game planning development exclusively for the single player, I feel that at this point in time not having moddability is really shooting yourself in the foot. Mod communities are what continue to hold up games like Morrowind even though the game itself is over 8 years old. People like being creative, and there comes a point when developers either lack the energy to add more to a project or don't have the manpower to get content out fast enough to appease their fanbase. The fact that you've made all of your ships in a sprite format that ultimately makes it possible for people to design their own ships is the first step in what I think could be an amazing opportunity for a brilliant metagame mod community, considering your suggested plans for allowing the moddability of missions, planets, factions, universes, etc.

So here is my humble suggestion as an enthusiastic modder and non-game developer: during the continued development of your product, why not lean on crowd-sourcing from the community? If you guys focused on making a comprehensive "mod builder" alongside the development of your features, you could leverage your community to provide themselves with entertainment and you with potential content. As you develop these highly ambitious features like:

*Unique character development
*Factions
*Economy impact
*Dynamic events and trade

and all those other goodies that simply cannot be all that easy to implement, include them in this modding suite and release them to the community. Develop the capability for factions, for example, and release that out into the wild. Do the same with all the other features. Simply put, allow people to make their own worlds with their own stories, and add the features that you release to their own mods as you release them. Not only is that likely to attract a metric ton of pre-sales (and additional funding) as people get in on the ground floor and start building things, but by the time the game proper actually launches, you'll already have a ton of additional content that the community will be clamoring for.

Your universe and story that you're writing and planning on implementing are likely going to be a true gem here, but realistically having more content before you release it will allow you to polish it for a longer period of time than if people only have missions to go on until release. In a game like this, a lacklustre developer-created single-player resulting from lack of development time would be a real downer if the community didn't have an accessible, comprehensive suite of tools to make their own fun. Inevitably, if they DO have those things then the release of YOUR single-player campaign and universe can only really add. If it rocks, then people are going to love it and add to it. If it's not so well received, then it won't be a big deal because you can bet a few unknown armchair modders are going to hit it out of the park with their own development.

I hope the tone of my post has been sufficient to convey my excitement for your project, and not sound like a know-it-all haha. It's a concept that I think could really work, so let me know what you think!

Cheers,

-Warkrieg
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 07:37:41 AM by Warkrieg »
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Avan

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 07:47:58 AM »

The essentials of focusing on modability is really big - I've been in enough modding-driven communities to know (and administrate one to boot) - though I wouldn't say that a totally comprehensive editor is completely necessary. Sure, for ships, weapons, and other things with very set parameters and you know exactly what the user is going to be able to put in there, but for say, missions and other things that can be scripted, you can't actually cover everything. I mean, a mission is after all just java, and so all you need is a text editor of your choice. What is more important than an editor is access to the ability to insert as much custom content with as much flexibility as possible; I mean, so long as all we need are text editors, thats really good enough for me (as opposed to hex editors, which... tend to make modding a pain in the butt). (Every game I've modded for has always just done data storage this way: no need to made fancy GUIs for it.)

Warkrieg

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 07:52:26 AM »

Sure, I get where you're coming from. It's a tough debate; on one hand, GUI's appeal to a lot more folks that aren't necessarily adept at using Java. Also, for the purpose of creating a Universe with its own separate planets and sectors, etc...a graphical representation is possibly a bit more user-friendly.

However if that's not in the cards, then so be it!

I may have misunderstood, but the plan is to create a seamless open-ended Universe sandbox and not just a stable of proprietary missions, right? I just ask for my own satisfaction. Keep up the good work

Cheers

-Warkrieg
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Avan

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 08:10:03 AM »

Given that the vast majority of the current data is already stored in text files, it would not be hard for a community-built GUI for modding things like missions to be constructed. I just feel trying to make something too big, too redundant, would begin to be a waste of time from more important aspects of mod support and other development; messing round with mission script is pretty easy (in fact possibly easier as text vs. a GUI), as its all fairly self-explanatory and well commented, while ship data would benefit from a GUI which would streamline the process, even though even there its not totally necessary ;) [As I have proven with my efforts in adding the first custom ships]

Warkrieg

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 09:10:22 AM »

Sure, that makes sense. I'm not entirely sure how a completely text-driven mod community might be able to tackle an entire universe with multiple factions, economies, and mission-strands without some sort of GUI or organizational structure, so I suppose only time will tell.

My main point was that the moddability of this game might just stand to be its greatest asset when it comes to delivering it to the masses, and that some additional focus on that might just be the key ingredient to its success. I was just campaigning for a bit of accessibility so your average Joe can dedicate some time into putting together his own Universe, storyline, ships, etc. with a bit less intimidation...at least initially

It's the reason why people still play games like NWN, after all.

Anyways, I appreciate your responses Avan and I'm excited about the potential of this game. PS - I checked out your custom ship, and it rocks!

Cheers,

-Warkrieg
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Avan

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 09:22:20 AM »

Sure, that makes sense. I'm not entirely sure how a completely text-driven mod community might be able to tackle an entire universe with multiple factions, economies, and mission-strands without some sort of GUI or organizational structure, so I suppose only time will tell.

Piece of cake. Transcendence does this. (see the link in my sig - largest transcendence mod at 100MB, and nearly double the number of ships, and not released yet, all data input done with a text editor)

Alex

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 11:08:20 AM »

Hi there, Warkrieg!

Thanks for your support :) The plan definitely is to have an open-world sandbox - to me that's at least half the appeal of the game!

About a mod builder, and the ideas in your OP:
I think we're coming from pretty much the same place. I'm very excited about the modding potential, and I have to admit I'm a little shocked by how quickly it's starting to be realized.

However, building a comprehensive modding tool would be an ongoing, multi-year project. I think some good examples are Morrowind and Oblivion construction sets, and those had at least one person devoted to them over the entire course of the development. We just can't do that.

Just the ship editor took a few months of work (but was so, so worth it). But even after all that, it's still not polished enough for public release! There are some... quirks in how it works.

So the reality of it is, modding will mostly involve text files, with specific tools sprinkled in where that's actually painful (say, the aforementioned ship editor). Since that's how we're building the game ourselves, we try to make the formats as easy to edit by hand as possible.
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Ivaylo

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2011, 11:27:02 AM »

Hi from me also Warkrieg,

I just wanted to say that reading your post made me feel really good about the direction we are taking the project in.

We always talked amongst ourselves, whether there would be enough gamers out there, people like yourself, whose imagination would captivated by our work.

So, welcome! :D


Now, on to the stuff you discuss in your OP. Rest assured, if you are into modding, you will be able to do a lot in the Starfarer universe. If you glance over at the Modding forum you will see the amazing work done by the guys, and its only been 3 days since we launched the forums!

All mods are not created equal, however. Making damage and range of weapons be different is as simple as editing a text file. Adding new ships is also not that difficult (although I was amazed by how quickly the guys figured it all out :D).

But what about something more ambitious? What if, for example, you wanted to create the equivalent of Submarines in the game. We actually had a bunch of ideas about this earlier on. We called it Phasing. A Phased ship would be weak, but impossible to hit with normal weapons. We had phase charges (like depth charges) that would act as a counter to phased ships.

This sort of thing would require changes in the core code that are so deep, that making the allowances for player to edit them is a really big task. So big, that if we were to focus on it, development on the core Starfarer game would be really slowed down.

I think when we release the ship editor you'll see what I am talking about RE: complexity.
The fact that the guys are doing it by hand now blows me away :D


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Blips

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2011, 11:35:57 AM »

Modding is great, but I hope that you guys focus on the game first, and the modding second. I'd much rather have a varied and enjoyable game than have a "platform" that I need to modify to make enjoyable.
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Alex

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2011, 11:42:04 AM »

Modding is great, but I hope that you guys focus on the game first, and the modding second. I'd much rather have a varied and enjoyable game than have a "platform" that I need to modify to make enjoyable.

Yeah, definitely. There's just no reason not to support modding from the start, as the way we're handling content creation is pretty friendly to it to begin with - and mods will add some serious replayability.
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Warkrieg

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Re: Suggestion for Crowd Development
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2011, 01:39:20 PM »

Modding is great, but I hope that you guys focus on the game first, and the modding second. I'd much rather have a varied and enjoyable game than have a "platform" that I need to modify to make enjoyable.

Totally, I completely understand your angle Blips. Not that I think everyone would want to mod, necessarily; but its hard to argue with unlimited content put out by a community that can produce at a rate that's impossible to match with a dedicated developer team.

Thanks so much for answering my questions, Alex and Ivaylo! Really think you guys are on the right track; I'll be referring your game to as many folks in my modding community as I can muster.

Cheers, guys

-Warkrieg
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