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Author Topic: Learning Wall  (Read 13179 times)

hairrorist

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2011, 09:42:58 AM »

Thanks for the reply Alex.  Do you plan to allow custom defined wings?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 09:45:11 AM by hairrorist »
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Alex

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2011, 10:08:15 AM »

Do you plan to allow custom defined wings?

No - unlike ships, fighter wings are balanced around being in a very specific configuration. Letting them be customized would be game-breaking.

You'll be able to assign an officer to be the wing leader, though. Probably one you aren't *too* attached to, as fighter pilot life expectancy isn't the highest :)
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hairrorist

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2011, 10:20:05 AM »

Ah, I suppose I meant custom groups, not fighter wings.
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Alex

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2011, 10:26:38 AM »

That did seem like a bit of a non-sequitur, now I see why :)

The last build was a deliberate step away from an RTS-like control scheme - here is a blog post that talks about the motivations, if you're interested.

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hairrorist

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2011, 11:54:43 AM »

Very interesting!  I agree wholeheartedly that you want to stay away from an RTS control and design scheme.  I love the system you've set up, it's probably my favorite aspect of the game and one of the reasons I clicked on preorder--I just would like to be able to know through some indicator (A little icon next to the ship in the deployment phase?) or through manual assignment (I designate before the battle starts which ship is in which wing) what ship belongs where and who's doing the attacking on what.  I think we're getting a little communication crossed here.  I don't want to hotkey assign groups and move them around the map like in an RTS.  I just want to know beforehand or be able to set beforehand which ships are in which groups without memorization.  I realize that some of this is self evident, ie, bombers are always going to be strike.  But frigates can fulfill a variety of  roles depending on their configuration. 

I really hope this isn't going to turn into another Bay12-ish community where suggesting interface transparency and information organization are considered heresy.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 12:09:52 PM by hairrorist »
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Thana

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2011, 12:15:06 PM »

That said, I'd love to introduce some progression elements in the next build - just not settled entirely on how to do that yet.

At its simplest, that might be nothing more than a few new battles with a smaller number of ships, possibly lighter ones. That's not "real" progression of course, but it would give players the means to get aquainted with the game a little at a time. Of course, custom battles which are supposed to be in offer that option as well, but then the players will still need to know what to pick to create a battle that's not too one-sided.

Hey, here's a thought - maybe there could be a way to set the random battle to have different fleet sizes. If you set the number of fleet purchase points (or whatever the game uses under the hood) low, you could create small random battles and then do progressively larger as you get more comfortable with the game. If that's included, I imagine implementing a dial to weigh the relative fleet strengths as well could be built in. That, too, would allow a progression of sorts, at a pace picked by the player.
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Alex

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2011, 09:08:28 AM »

Very interesting!  I agree wholeheartedly that you want to stay away from an RTS control and design scheme.  I love the system you've set up, it's probably my favorite aspect of the game and one of the reasons I clicked on preorder--I just would like to be able to know through some indicator (A little icon next to the ship in the deployment phase?) or through manual assignment (I designate before the battle starts which ship is in which wing) what ship belongs where and who's doing the attacking on what.  I think we're getting a little communication crossed here.  I don't want to hotkey assign groups and move them around the map like in an RTS.  I just want to know beforehand or be able to set beforehand which ships are in which groups without memorization.  I realize that some of this is self evident, ie, bombers are always going to be strike.  But frigates can fulfill a variety of  roles depending on their configuration.

I think I finally get it :) When you say "groups", you mean which assignments ships have an affinity to, right?

Thing is, that changes depending on the ships on the field and the assignments in play - though each ship has a few that they're most suited to. For example, the fastest ships will get picked out for capture assignments, though interceptors and some of the fastest frigates are most suited to those overall.

Displaying explicitly a couple of the "best" assignments for each ship might not be a bad idea. As it is now, the variant designation on the tooltip is almost that - for example, "Assault Destroyer", "Light Fire Support Carrier", "Strike Frigate", etc tell you what the intent of that loadout is.


At its simplest, that might be nothing more than a few new battles with a smaller number of ships, possibly lighter ones. That's not "real" progression of course, but it would give players the means to get aquainted with the game a little at a time. Of course, custom battles which are supposed to be in offer that option as well, but then the players will still need to know what to pick to create a battle that's not too one-sided.

Hey, here's a thought - maybe there could be a way to set the random battle to have different fleet sizes. If you set the number of fleet purchase points (or whatever the game uses under the hood) low, you could create small random battles and then do progressively larger as you get more comfortable with the game. If that's included, I imagine implementing a dial to weigh the relative fleet strengths as well could be built in. That, too, would allow a progression of sorts, at a pace picked by the player.

Hmm... I'm really leaning towards a series of "training" difficulty missions. I don't want to spend a lot of time making a subgame that's going to get tossed away when the campaign is ready, you know? Not that what your second suggestion is anywhere close to that.
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hairrorist

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2011, 09:12:29 AM »

Hurray, we're on the same page!  Sorry if I was unclear.
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Kardiophylax

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 12:20:30 PM »

I'm experiencing a large amount of frustration with Starfarer right now, and I'm hoping that someone can show me either the error in my ways, or if this is how things are supposed to work.  I'm a very new player, but so far my experience has been a bit underwhelming, which is unfortunate, as I really want to like this game.

How do I get my ships to listen and stop flying off to get singled out and killed?  I set command orders to take over a couple points and to defend nearby them, yet some of my ships still wander off on their own.  How do I prevent this behavior, and what should I be doing?  I watched two online tutorials from a few months back and played the in-game tutorial and still don't seem to be doing this right.

How are you guys making use of your capital / flagships?  Their weapons seem to have a very short range and their speed is atrocious, so trying to engage anything ends with me giving chase as they either outrun me or outflank me.  Right now, I feel either like a sponge absorbing bullets with no other real purpose, or like a turtle always showing up after the action has come and gone.  Shouldn't I be able to lock onto targets and fire missiles or long range beams or something?  I actually enjoyed the smaller ship in Sinking the Bis'mar since I got to actually dodge and use some tactics.  The big ships are a bore.


I've also got a few suggestions as someone new that I suspect other new players may also have.  Obviously, these are just my opinions and may not jive with the goals of the game, and I understand if that's the case.  Anyway, I'll just share these thoughts I jotted down while playing:

Make it more obvious when firing a weapon that it is either on cooldown or out of ammo.  I am normally looking at the action on the screen and not at the bottom of the screen where the ammo display/info is.  Instead, I end up losing time/firing angle when I try to fire a gun that isn't ready or has no ammo left.  I think either a subtle "Out of Ammo" or "Weapon not ready yet" overlay on or near the ship would help quite a bit.

Same as above but with Flex.  An obvious indicator on/near your ship that you are nearing overload would be handy.  Again, I don't find myself looking at the lower left corner of the screen when I'm taking damage/fighting someone.

Hotkey or option to keep the screen locked with your ship in the center.  I understand the desire to look around while flying, but it can be disorienting when I'm trying to aim and end up moving my ship nearly off the screen in the process.  I don't care for this and it detracts from the experience.

Allow access to the controls list while in battle.  As far I could tell, you can only access the controls list from the main menu settings.

Tips on the main page seem to cycle randomly.  I think I saw them all, but I had to keep clicking and cycle through the same tips a half dozen times to get to them.  I would just make this sequential instead.

More in depth tutorials to explain game mechanics.  This game does not seem to work well with the old "jump in and see how things go" philosophy.  In fact, its downright frustrating.  I have completely destroyed some of the scenarios while others left me without a clue how to proceed.  I suspect I am missing some things.

As far as space strategy games go, I'm coming from a background of playing games like MoO2, Sword of the Stars, and recently, SPAZ.  Anyway, those are my thoughts. Once the 4x type campaign elements are added to the game,  as well as ship design, I really feel like this game can be fantastic.  That's why I've supported the project, but even if the game doesn't end up being what I expected, I can at least enjoy the fact that I supported indie development. 





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Alex

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2011, 02:15:18 PM »

Thanks for your support, and for dropping by to share your thoughts.

How do I get my ships to listen and stop flying off to get singled out and killed?  I set command orders to take over a couple points and to defend nearby them, yet some of my ships still wander off on their own.  How do I prevent this behavior, and what should I be doing?  I watched two online tutorials from a few months back and played the in-game tutorial and still don't seem to be doing this right.

"Defend" doesn't tie ships to the point very closely - they're free to engage in a rather large range, especially if there aren't any enemy ships near the point they're defending. I think the main issue is with interceptors, which aren't careful enough - but frigates and such don't run off to get killed, but rather run off and effectively engage the enemy.


How are you guys making use of your capital / flagships?  Their weapons seem to have a very short range and their speed is atrocious, so trying to engage anything ends with me giving chase as they either outrun me or outflank me.  Right now, I feel either like a sponge absorbing bullets with no other real purpose, or like a turtle always showing up after the action has come and gone.  Shouldn't I be able to lock onto targets and fire missiles or long range beams or something?  I actually enjoyed the smaller ship in Sinking the Bis'mar since I got to actually dodge and use some tactics.  The big ships are a bore.

Well, it's a matter of feel and preference. Larger ships take a bit more care in their use (and thinking a bit further ahead, because you can't get out of a bad spot nearly as easily), and small ships are more arcade-like, which probably makes them easier to start with. Large ships do have a lot more firepower, though.

The latest addition to the dev build (damageable weapons and engines) adds more tactical considerations that are particularly important for large ships.

Also, Nav Buoys. If you're in a large ship, controlling those makes a big difference because of the speed bonus.

As far as missiles and long range beams, the Apogee (which I suspect is the first large ship you encounter - in "Hornet's Nest") has both. You can target off-screen enemies from the war room through an option off their context menu and fire missiles from rather far off that way.


Make it more obvious when firing a weapon that it is either on cooldown or out of ammo.  I am normally looking at the action on the screen and not at the bottom of the screen where the ammo display/info is.  Instead, I end up losing time/firing angle when I try to fire a gun that isn't ready or has no ammo left.  I think either a subtle "Out of Ammo" or "Weapon not ready yet" overlay on or near the ship would help quite a bit.

Same as above but with Flex.  An obvious indicator on/near your ship that you are nearing overload would be handy.  Again, I don't find myself looking at the lower left corner of the screen when I'm taking damage/fighting someone.

Yep, both those need to be addressed.


Hotkey or option to keep the screen locked with your ship in the center.  I understand the desire to look around while flying, but it can be disorienting when I'm trying to aim and end up moving my ship nearly off the screen in the process.  I don't care for this and it detracts from the experience.

This is something that just takes a bit of getting used to. Given the effective weapon ranges, locking your screen on the center of the ship isn't as good as it sounds - it ends up being pretty close to useless.


Allow access to the controls list while in battle.  As far I could tell, you can only access the controls list from the main menu settings.

Yeah, should probably do that :)


More in depth tutorials to explain game mechanics.  This game does not seem to work well with the old "jump in and see how things go" philosophy.  In fact, its downright frustrating.  I have completely destroyed some of the scenarios while others left me without a clue how to proceed.  I suspect I am missing some things.

Yeah, this is really something the game needs to handle better. The main problem is that you're thrown into the deep end of the pool right away. If the campaign was in place, you wouldn't have all these ships and options available to you at once, and the pacing would be much better - but now you get to very large battles shortly after starting to play the game.

Something I'd like to add for the next version is a series of stripped-down "training" level scenarios which introduce you to the basics. Something between "tutorial" and the "easy" level missions, where you're free to do as you like, but the tactical situation is very constrained to demonstrate a particular gameplay dynamic.


Ultimately, though, Starfarer is meant to offer a challenge - it's just the learning curve is too steep right now. This is something I'm very much aware of, and will be addressing as time goes on. In particular, once the campaign is added, I think it will get a lot more manageable.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 02:40:51 PM by Alex »
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Kardiophylax

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2011, 03:53:59 PM »

Thank you so much for the reply Alex.  I appreciate it!  The game is certainly intriguing and I am excited to see the upcoming developments.

I'm going to keep playing with the different war room options and see if I can figure out how to best use/control my units.  I didn't realize Defend would still leave them free to move about so much, but now that I know, it makes sense that they still wandered off.  I'm going to give the manual and codex another look through for inspiration.

I see what you mean regarding the Apogee.  I just tried that mission again and see that the high intensity laser has a pretty long range.  It appears the missiles also have a longer range, though their ammo seems very limited.  I can understand why you may not want to center the screen now.  Instead, it makes me want to zoom out more, but I'll get used to it as is I suppose.  I'll try taking more of the Nav Buoys.   Can you provide any pointers on getting some of my ships to actually then defend it so the enemy isn't able to just take it back?

Another option I have is to switch command to a new ship.  I've noticed when I do this that the screen does not need to zoom or center to the new ship.  Not sure if I'm missing something or if I'm supposed to have to drag my view over to where that ship is manually.


Thanks again.  It sounds like you are on the right track, and I look forward to the continued development!


 

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Alex

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2011, 04:41:13 PM »

I see what you mean regarding the Apogee.  I just tried that mission again and see that the high intensity laser has a pretty long range.  It appears the missiles also have a longer range, though their ammo seems very limited.  I can understand why you may not want to center the screen now.  Instead, it makes me want to zoom out more, but I'll get used to it as is I suppose.  I'll try taking more of the Nav Buoys.   Can you provide any pointers on getting some of my ships to actually then defend it so the enemy isn't able to just take it back?

Putting a "Defend" on an objective is usually enough so it won't be lost, or at least not taken by the enemy. If an objective isn't under heavy attack, putting a "Rally Carrier Group" on it is enough to take care of frigates and fighters coming to simply capture (and not assault) it - this is more useful for objectives in the rear. Of course, that assumes you have a carrier of sorts, but you usually do.

A "Patrol" will dispatch a smaller group of ships to guard a point - up to you whether it's worth to keep them there and out of action - I find that it's usually not.

In the next version, you'll also be able to give a "Control" assignment on an objective which'll automatically order your ships to take it back if it's lost, but won't keep any ships there as long as you hold it.


Another option I have is to switch command to a new ship.  I've noticed when I do this that the screen does not need to zoom or center to the new ship.  Not sure if I'm missing something or if I'm supposed to have to drag my view over to where that ship is manually.

Hmm, I don't quite understand what you mean. There are two options - one is "show video feed", which switches your view over to another ship so you can see what's going on, but you don't control it. This is more useful for when you haven't deployed your flagship yet. There's also "Transfer Command", which makes a little shuttle fly from your ship to the target, and once it reaches it, you take direct control. Hopefully that clears things up, unless I completely misunderstood what you're asking :)


... hmm, I think there was a bug at some point with the screen not centering right under some circumstances. Thought it was fixed, but it's possible you ran into that. Were you using 'Z' to lock your view on target, btw?

Thanks again.  It sounds like you are on the right track, and I look forward to the continued development!

My pleasure, and thank you!
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Kardiophylax

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2011, 05:41:17 PM »

Wow, I feel pretty foolish for not noticing the small little escape pod ejecting from the command ship and flying towards the target "new" command ship.  It was hard to see with all the other little fighters and such that had been harassing me in the area.  Not sure how to make that clearer unless perhaps a message of some kind indicating that your command shuttle is in "en route" to the new command ship was added.  Could just be me not paying enough attention, though.  ;)  The screen kept moving because of the command shuttle and I just thought it was either me moving the mouse or an issue because my command ship was toast.  I don't think it was the bug you mentioned.  Hopefully you've squashed that one, I know I hate when little bugs come crawling back out. 

I read the manual, took your advice, and had another go and did much better now, at least on the medium missions.  The hard ones, aside from Sinking the Bis'mar, have proven too daunting for me thus far, heh.  I had a go driving one of the assault frigates (once they, ahem, kind of blew up my command ship) and it moved at a top speed of about 30.  Boy, did I regret that move!  I also tried the Dominator-class in Predator or Prey, but hated the movement speed on it.  I tried to capture the buoys as it suggested, but failed to take and hold them.

I will look forward to the campaign when I can proceed at a slightly slower pace.  I don't think I'm quite ready for the hard and impossible scenarios yet.   :)
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Alex

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2011, 06:18:05 PM »

Ah yeah, that shuttle is pretty small :)
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Thana

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Re: Learning Wall
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2011, 11:43:35 PM »

I read the manual, took your advice, and had another go and did much better now, at least on the medium missions.  The hard ones, aside from Sinking the Bis'mar, have proven too daunting for me thus far, heh.  I had a go driving one of the assault frigates (once they, ahem, kind of blew up my command ship) and it moved at a top speed of about 30.  Boy, did I regret that move!  I also tried the Dominator-class in Predator or Prey, but hated the movement speed on it.  I tried to capture the buoys as it suggested, but failed to take and hold them.

Note also that ships whose shields are off (and flux at zero as well, I think) move faster, so that's another way to increase your ship's speed. Especially important for the big, slow ships where it can close to double their movement speed.
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