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Author Topic: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)  (Read 7697 times)

icepick37

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 03:27:25 PM »

Ah I didn't realize you mean strafing acceleration, and I didn't know it was different. My bad.

Also I HATE the idea of your trump card AOE kill-all-the-things weapons, haha. Someone has probably modded them in. Or can.

Missiles:
sabots are great for bursting someones shield. You have to have muscle to kill them though. So they work in a really specialized one two punch build.
swarmers are great against fighters
harpoons are my favorite missile. They are great for stripping armor, so you can focus the rest of your build on kinetic/shield dropping damage.
reapers are to be used ONLY on someones hull. But then you can say bye bye hull. they are devastating.
annhilator whittle people down and are good at eliminating armor and overwhelming pd so your important missiles (like reapers) can get through.

I will admit that missile boats are mostly lacking. Missile systems require backup. But missiles in general are good all around weapons if you can deal with the massive ammo shortage.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 03:33:10 PM »

reapers are to be used ONLY on someones hull.
Man, you were doing so well. I had agreed with everything you have said so far. And then you say this.

Yes, ideally you want to hit their hull with a torpedo, however, even if you hit an enemy's shield with a Reaper torpedo, it's still going to hurt. A lot.
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Thaago

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2012, 04:23:55 PM »

Well, 2000 damage. Not bad, but most frigates can take that on the shield without overloading and a cruiser/capital won't notice very much. Compared to a hull impact its not much.
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icepick37

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2012, 07:13:42 PM »

Yes, ideally you want to hit their hull with a torpedo, however, even if you hit an enemy's shield with a Reaper torpedo, it's still going to hurt. A lot.
Okay, true. But you also don't fire them blindly into someone's shields. You can use them to pressure the overload. Then hopefully back that up with more torps.  :)
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xenoargh

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2012, 07:31:14 PM »

It's HE damage, IIRC, so you don't even get that much.  My experience with torpedoes is that they're utterly worthless vs. Frigates, and while they're potentially-useful as capship killers, their ROF and hit rates are so low that it's pretty iffy.  Fighter swarms deploying them or bombs can be effective one-shot killers, though- I like the fighters with bombs, they're quite cost-efficient for single strikes, and my only complaint about them is that I want to keep them in safe holding patterns until it's time to direct a strike.  Right now, given the way the AI works, that's hard.

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I HATE the idea of your trump card AOE kill-all-the-things weapons, haha. Someone has probably modded them in. Or can.
I'll set one up and see how it goes.  I think it's possible to have such a thing and have it be balanced; perhaps it's a special weapon that can literally only be carried by a special unit, or it's very slow and takes forever to arrive, giving players and the AI time to dodge, or maybe it's only able to kill a really specific target that it picks when it detonates, like a smart pop-up naval missile system IRL.  

The point I'm making here is that there should be things in the game that even the capships fear and dread, not just niggling DPS weapons; a true tactical game with its roots in the space battles of Star Wars and anime should have a Reflex Cannon or two :-)  Weapons like that can have so many other disadvantages that using them is purely situational; if players routinely build a fleet around them, they're probably still OP.  But it would be cool to see those kinds of things show up, as a nod to the sources.

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Theres two sides to combat rewards: one is the standard video game side, where monsters carry tons of gold (or whatever) and the player is actively rewarded for being a murdering psychopath (I like these games Smiley). Then there is a more realistic approach: combat is incredibly dangerous, destructive, and expensive for everyone. People only fight for a reason - wars/skirmishes/contracts, self defense, and piracy come to mind - but no pirate/highwayman would ever fight an even fight - no profit Smiley. I hope that it is the second approach that Alex takes with the game considering its gritty story, but its his game.
I think that's a complex issue, in a game like this.  On the one hand, if you make the game about trade and setting up economic situations, it'll go the way the X series did; dull, green-eyeshades accounting gaming, where it's all about opti-maxing for money and then just throwing out more stuff than any AI opponent can reasonably deal with.  I don't like that very much; I prefer the mechanics of Escape Velocity, where you got rewarded for superior arcade play, capturing enemy ships you'd almost-but-not-quite destroyed.  The ship AI is already superior to EV; I'd love to be able to build a "war band" of carefully-grown Captains that I level up, fleet buffs, etc., so that eventually I can fight battles at overwhelming odds.  

Right now, it's the worst of both worlds.  If I'm a superior player, I can't actually win in combat scenarios without it being at a severe economic loss unless I just stack everybody for long-range kiting, which is about as exciting as watching paint dry.  It shouldn't work like that; if I manage to salvage a Cruiser, it should give me enough money that I'm able to replace my losses in lesser ships and buy new things.

This should not be a game where you just stack your ships for the longest range bands and occasionally make a tactical choice about who to convert into rubble; I'd really prefer the EV model, where you got into really high-end, maneuverable ships, kind of like Hyperions on steroids (minus their poorly-balanced teleport, lol), and your fleet was there to tank and add some DPS to the mix, but you, the player, were the primary agent, and you, the player, had to have the arcade skills to win.  Right now, it's too much like just doing some numbers, avoiding all the weapons that obviously suck, and stacking your fleet correctly; none of that stuff is bad, per se, but it shouldn't be the core of gameplay, imo :-)

Anyhow, it sounds like I'm going to have to build a mod to demonstrate a lot of the modeling, so I'll just do it and see if people find it fun or not :-)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 07:38:39 PM by xenoargh »
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icepick37

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2012, 08:06:40 PM »

Well it sounds like most of this will get fixed in the campaign. Where your player skills and captains personalities and skill will have actual drastic impact on each battle.
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armoredcookie

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2012, 08:15:29 PM »

Theres two sides to combat rewards: one is the standard video game side, where monsters carry tons of gold (or whatever) and the player is actively rewarded for being a murdering psychopath (I like these games :)). Then there is a more realistic approach: combat is incredibly dangerous, destructive, and expensive for everyone. People only fight for a reason - wars/skirmishes/contracts, self defense, and piracy come to mind - but no pirate/highwayman would ever fight an even fight - no profit :). I hope that it is the second approach that Alex takes with the game considering its gritty story, but its his game.
And I think Alex does intends to do that. But that doesn't mean the game will revolve around sitting at a screen watching numbers and production rates, as I'd assume it would require actively moving your fleet around to defend your assets, join battles, do some mercenary contract work here and there to supplement your growing mining industry... And what not. I doubt people play to have the most money with the best mining equipment, people play to have fun and beat the living crap out of buffaloes and their associated fleets :).

Right now, it's the worst of both worlds.  If I'm a superior player, I can't actually win in combat scenarios without it being at a severe economic loss unless I just stack everybody for long-range kiting, which is about as exciting as watching paint dry.  It shouldn't work like that; if I manage to salvage a Cruiser, it should give me enough money that I'm able to replace my losses in lesser ships and buy new things.
There's two ways to think about it. One is that its the players fault and one is that its the games problem. I prefer to blame myself for the loss of a frigate or destroyer in battle because I didn't issue it the right commands or gave it an order it couldn't fulfill or forgot to tell it to retreat after taking harpoons in the gut. The game shouldn't recompense you for your own mistakes, but it'd be nice if there was a higher payout for attacking a larger fleet (for all of those AI screwups flying into the line of fire and what not). Its simply too low at this point to be worth it, and I generally only do it for fun or with large fleets. Its much harder to beat a pirate carrier taskforce (the biggest one, have to spend time and effort managing your small fleet to win) than 3 of those small fleets (as you can just auto-resolve and you'll be fine).

This should not be a game where you just stack your ships for the longest range bands and occasionally make a tactical choice about who to convert into rubble; I'd really prefer the EV model, where you got into really high-end, maneuverable ships, kind of like Hyperions on steroids (minus their poorly-balanced teleport, lol), and your fleet was there to tank and add some DPS to the mix, but you, the player, were the primary agent, and you, the player, had to have the arcade skills to win.  Right now, it's too much like just doing some numbers, avoiding all the weapons that obviously suck, and stacking your fleet correctly; none of that stuff is bad, per se, but it shouldn't be the core of gameplay, imo :-)
I guess this is a more personal preference, but for me it just doesn't seem fun anymore when your ship is vastly superior to the AI ships (which they already are now with the 50% damage reduction thats generally on). The player should be able to make a difference in battle if the opposing fleets are fairly equal, but in the case when your vastly outnumbered and outgunned, the player shouldn't be able to pull through and take out 90% of the HDF with one ship. You should do the sensible thing and retreat and regroup, taking minimal losses (the escape battle tactic is kind of useless :/). But then again, I'm the kind of guy that likes flying around in my cap ship and ordering my fleet to amass around me and charge straight into the *** of the HDF :D and then reload my last save and do it again with different tactics until I'm satisfied with how much I've improved/the result.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 08:17:23 PM by armoredcookie »
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Thaago

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Re: Starfarer: Bugs and Feature Requests (Long)
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2012, 08:45:06 PM »

Quote
Right now, it's the worst of both worlds.  If I'm a superior player, I can't actually win in combat scenarios without it being at a severe economic loss unless I just stack everybody for long-range kiting, which is about as exciting as watching paint dry.  It shouldn't work like that; if I manage to salvage a Cruiser, it should give me enough money that I'm able to replace my losses in lesser ships and buy new things.

I have to disagree with your assessment of combat in this game. Superior players can take down incredible odds by building fleets that work well together and then effectively managing the ships - well timed retreats, escorts, and the various strike/intercept/engage commands can be used by a skilled player to devastating effect. Not only that but skilled players can simply outfly the AI, either managing flux/weapon groups and range better on capital ships or swooping in for double teams and flanks in destroyers/frigates. The odds you mentioned:

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3 Destroyers and 3 Frigates and successfully destroy two Cruisers used as Carriers, an attack Cruiser and two attack Destroyers

Aren't particularly lopsided. Might be kind of a long fight, but completely doable with no losses.

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The point I'm making here is that there should be things in the game that even the capships fear and dread, not just niggling DPS weapons; a true tactical game with its roots in the space battles of Star Wars and anime should have a Reflex Cannon or two :-)  Weapons like that can have so many other disadvantages that using them is purely situational; if players routinely build a fleet around them, they're probably still OP.  But it would be cool to see those kinds of things show up, as a nod to the sources.

To be fair, this game isn't rooted in those genres :). I would love to try out a mod for a game that is - put one out and I'll def play it. As the game stands though it has many nods to its sources: Master of Orion II especially.
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