Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

Author Topic: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies  (Read 633 times)

PixiCode

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
    • View Profile
Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« on: May 16, 2025, 06:37:09 PM »

There's a few damage buffs available in Starsector which I never really looked into with the Omen so I took some more time to look into things and found a few unexpected things. It might be interesting to change it so that the damage buffs we have access to are more consistent among each other.

Target Analysis, Wolfpack Tactics and Point Defense damage bonuses all apply to EMP Emitter.

Energy Weapon Mastery and Tactical Drills do not apply damage bonuses to EMP Emitter. This sort of makes sense, EMP Emitter isn't really a normal weapon and Tactical Drills specifies weapon damage.

Combat Readiness and Cyber Augmentation damage bonuses do not apply to EMP Emitter. Based on how Target Analysis and Wolfpack do work, I was surprised to see both of these... not work.

Should CR and Cyber Aug damage bonuses (Or maluses!) apply to Omen's EMP emitter?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2025, 06:40:02 PM by PixiCode »
Logged

eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2025, 07:13:46 PM »

There's a few damage buffs available in Starsector which I never really looked into with the Omen so I took some more time to look into things and found a few unexpected things. It might be interesting to change it so that the damage buffs we have access to are more consistent among each other.

Target Analysis, Wolfpack Tactics and Point Defense damage bonuses all apply to EMP Emitter.

Energy Weapon Mastery and Tactical Drills do not apply damage bonuses to EMP Emitter. This sort of makes sense, EMP Emitter isn't really a normal weapon and Tactical Drills specifies weapon damage.

Combat Readiness and Cyber Augmentation damage bonuses do not apply to EMP Emitter. Based on how Target Analysis and Wolfpack do work, I was surprised to see both of these... not work.

Should CR and Cyber Aug damage bonuses (Or maluses!) apply to Omen's EMP emitter?
It's pretty meh despite what people say about it. Last version I was literally using Bust PD Shrikes with converted hanger Wasps over Omens, due to the emitter just not doing enough even when buffed as much as I could get it.
So, yea, it should be fine to apply CR and Aug bonuses as currently it isn't as good as people think it is.
Logged

PixiCode

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2025, 07:45:33 PM »

It's pretty meh despite what people say about it. Last version I was literally using Bust PD Shrikes with converted hanger Wasps over Omens, due to the emitter just not doing enough even when buffed as much as I could get it.
So, yea, it should be fine to apply CR and Aug bonuses as currently it isn't as good as people think it is.

I think people feel that way partly because of 0.95 Omen and how fighters have been pretty bad from then until recently (without point defense skill, omens are actually pretty bad vs. more than 2 wings of fighters). There were fewer enemies you could come across that would burst down an Omen than there are today.

I definitively wouldn't call Omen weak or 'mid' tier, but I also wouldn't call it anywhere near overpowered. It's just good and it's just weird that some damage buffs work with EMP emitter and some don't.
Logged

Vanshilar

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 824
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2025, 07:54:26 PM »

Amoebka did some code-digging as to how the damage bonuses work here:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=29471.msg433545#msg433545

Based on your description, it seems like EMP Emitter benefits from the bonuses in Group B (which are loosely speaking, dependent on ship size) but not Group A (which are the garden-variety general, "regardless of ship size" bonuses). I haven't played around with it much, so I don't know if there may be a structural, code-related reason in terms of how EMP is considered by the code for this.
Logged

PixiCode

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2025, 08:17:29 PM »

Amoebka did some code-digging as to how the damage bonuses work here:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=29471.msg433545#msg433545

Based on your description, it seems like EMP Emitter benefits from the bonuses in Group B (which are loosely speaking, dependent on ship size) but not Group A (which are the garden-variety general, "regardless of ship size" bonuses). I haven't played around with it much, so I don't know if there may be a structural, code-related reason in terms of how EMP is considered by the code for this.

Thanks! Good info to know.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7956
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2025, 09:25:30 PM »

Here, I did some testing on the EMP emitter last version: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=31382.msg461029#msg461029

The range is the weirdest thing. System Expertise does increase the range by ~50% and nothing else does, but the exact amounts I couldn't pin down. In play, I find the extra range is very impactful and consider omens/shades Sys Ex or bust. It lets them fire completely over allied ships more reliably.
Logged

Tranquility

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2025, 10:01:26 PM »

...

The range is the weirdest thing. System Expertise does increase the range by ~50% and nothing else does, but the exact amounts I couldn't pin down. In play, I find the extra range is very impactful and consider omens/shades Sys Ex or bust. It lets them fire completely over allied ships more reliably.

EMP Emitter has a specified range of 500 on its .system file (emp.system), which is also listed in the wiki. Thus, System Expertise would raise the system range to 750.

I do think it makes sense for the EMP Emitter - and other direct-damage ship systems - to benefit from general damage increases like CR and Cyber Aug. Unlike something like Tactical Drills, EWM, or Ballistic Mastery, the "+X% damage dealt" line makes it sound like it should affect all damage dealt by the ship - except, according to the code, it actually does this by boosting only ballistic/energy/missile damage, which isn't obvious from just reading the skill descriptions.

The interesting thing is that Mine Strike is affected by missile damage bonuses (or, at the very least, the missile HP bonus from Missile Specialization) and, so, is theoretically boosted by Tactical Drills and Cyber Aug. Yet, EMP Emitter does not appear to get this same treatment at all for energy weapon bonuses. I can only assume this is mainly down to how the ship system is implemented and how damage modifiers are applied. I do know that there are other examples of damage modifiers not applying as expected, like Rift Lightning and possibly the rift explosions from the Rift Beam and Rift Cascade Emitter not being affected by EWM at all, so the EMP Emitter isn't alone in this regard.

Lawrence Master-blaster

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2025, 01:05:53 AM »

Are you really buffing the Omen?
Logged

PixiCode

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2025, 01:10:03 AM »

Technically this could be a nerf if your Omen CR is below the point where damage dealt decreases!
Logged

Amoebka

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2025, 03:51:18 AM »

Based on your description, it seems like EMP Emitter benefits from the bonuses in Group B (which are loosely speaking, dependent on ship size) but not Group A (which are the garden-variety general, "regardless of ship size" bonuses).

Group A is bonuses dependent on weapon types. "General" damage bonuses like CyberAugs under the hood are implemented as bonuses to each weapon type (ballistic, energy, missile) at the same time.

Mine Strike benefits from them, because it has a dummy weapon associated with it (minelayer1). EMP emitter has no associated weapon, it's "just a ship system".
Logged

Doctorhealsgood

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2025, 10:28:02 AM »

Based on your description, it seems like EMP Emitter benefits from the bonuses in Group B (which are loosely speaking, dependent on ship size) but not Group A (which are the garden-variety general, "regardless of ship size" bonuses).

Group A is bonuses dependent on weapon types. "General" damage bonuses like CyberAugs under the hood are implemented as bonuses to each weapon type (ballistic, energy, missile) at the same time.

Mine Strike benefits from them, because it has a dummy weapon associated with it (minelayer1). EMP emitter has no associated weapon, it's "just a ship system".
maybe emitter should get a dummy too
Logged
Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7956
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2025, 10:31:58 AM »

...

The range is the weirdest thing. System Expertise does increase the range by ~50% and nothing else does, but the exact amounts I couldn't pin down. In play, I find the extra range is very impactful and consider omens/shades Sys Ex or bust. It lets them fire completely over allied ships more reliably.

EMP Emitter has a specified range of 500 on its .system file (emp.system), which is also listed in the wiki. Thus, System Expertise would raise the system range to 750.

...

That's interesting because it only partially matches what I found. Here, let me quote myself just to get it on the page:

Quote
Testing vs the Atlas's nose, the arcs start connecting with the shields at ~715 displayed range in the R target box. When I add SE, it hits at ~1115 displayed range.

Testing vs fighters, without SE: starts hitting fighters at ~470 range displayed; with SE, starts hitting fighters at ~710 displayed range.

I'm not surprised that the displayed ranges are shorter for fighters: they are center to center after all, and the Atlas has a big long nose. What I am surprised at is that the difference for the Atlas shield is ~400 range, while the difference for the fighters is ~240 range. I have no explanation for this discrepancy.

I did this testing blind (not knowing that the range in the file is 500). For zapping fighters, the "look at the displayed range" method seems about right. But what is going on with ships? The range at which the omen arced to an Atlas increased by 400.

One hypothesis I have is that the system has a calculated range of something like 500 + 1/2 of target ship length, and the whole sum is getting multiplied by 1.5 instead of just the 500.
Logged

Phenir

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1545
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2025, 05:16:18 PM »

...

The range is the weirdest thing. System Expertise does increase the range by ~50% and nothing else does, but the exact amounts I couldn't pin down. In play, I find the extra range is very impactful and consider omens/shades Sys Ex or bust. It lets them fire completely over allied ships more reliably.

EMP Emitter has a specified range of 500 on its .system file (emp.system), which is also listed in the wiki. Thus, System Expertise would raise the system range to 750.

...

That's interesting because it only partially matches what I found. Here, let me quote myself just to get it on the page:

Quote
Testing vs the Atlas's nose, the arcs start connecting with the shields at ~715 displayed range in the R target box. When I add SE, it hits at ~1115 displayed range.

Testing vs fighters, without SE: starts hitting fighters at ~470 range displayed; with SE, starts hitting fighters at ~710 displayed range.

I'm not surprised that the displayed ranges are shorter for fighters: they are center to center after all, and the Atlas has a big long nose. What I am surprised at is that the difference for the Atlas shield is ~400 range, while the difference for the fighters is ~240 range. I have no explanation for this discrepancy.

I did this testing blind (not knowing that the range in the file is 500). For zapping fighters, the "look at the displayed range" method seems about right. But what is going on with ships? The range at which the omen arced to an Atlas increased by 400.

One hypothesis I have is that the system has a calculated range of something like 500 + 1/2 of target ship length, and the whole sum is getting multiplied by 1.5 instead of just the 500.
You shouldn't test against atlas because the "center" of that ship is near the back, which is what the range indicator uses, while it has a valid target at the tip.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7956
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2025, 06:01:02 PM »

You can say I shouldn't test it all you like, but the fact is that I got +400 range from using sys ex on one and that flat range cannot be explained by just the center-center vs center-tip distance. If anything, its a darn good thing I did test against a big ship, because it revealed either a bug or some other unexplained behavior, instead of the expected +250 on fighters!
Logged

Phenir

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1545
    • View Profile
Re: Omen's EMP Emitter and inconsistencies
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2025, 08:39:20 PM »

You can say I shouldn't test it all you like, but the fact is that I got +400 range from using sys ex on one and that flat range cannot be explained by just the center-center vs center-tip distance. If anything, its a darn good thing I did test against a big ship, because it revealed either a bug or some other unexplained behavior, instead of the expected +250 on fighters!
Vs an atlas with no shields, hitting the nose weapon, I get 1012 with sysex, 774 without. 238 difference. Against shield, 1118 and 868, exactly 250 so I'm just gonna assume your testing was flawed or it got fixed in the meantime.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2025, 08:46:47 PM by Phenir »
Logged