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[Terethall]

Title. Why are all the endgame enemy factions so weak to kinetic lowtech ballistics/PD builds? All three (or four if you count [super alabaster]) of the current farmable endgame hostile factions basically are countered by the exact same build. Meanwhile the core world factions and derelicts all have totally different optimal counter builds, but obviously get fought way less.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

You kill Remnant with kinetics? Or the Threat? I'd like to see these kinetics.

[Bungee_man]

I think you can build an endgame fleet in any number of styles that can handle anything. That's ultimately what "beating the game" looks like. For my part, I used a neural linked radiant, lots of combat skills, and a support fleet of Anubi equipped with carrier bays, HILs, and Threat swarm launchers. Very high-tech. Others use midline, going all-in on Conquests, or make use of a Doom flagship. It takes some planning, but you can make a good fleet using the ships you like no matter what they are.

I'm a bit surprised you mention the core world factions, given how weak they've gotten. Pretty much anything will shred them now, though I suppose the League has a unique glaring weakness (full-coverage shields), as does the Church (anything that can outmaneuver an Invictus and still damage it).

[Phenir]

I'm curious what fleet build you are using that beats 3rd strike threat and full alpha ordo remnant without any changes. I can see shroud being beaten by the same build that beats remnant though.

[DirectionsToL3Please]

You kill Remnant with kinetics? Or the Threat? I'd like to see these kinetics.

Unmodded game, so take that for what it's worth.  And not all kinetics, obviously.
Onslaught MK I, Onslaught XIV (x2)
3x Medusa
6x Enforcer XIV

That gives you three main battlegroups so you have a little tactical flexibility.  Mod your Medusae with Escort Package and Expanded Magazines (plus Advanced Optics if you can build in three), equip them 2x Railgun, 2x Heavy Burst Laser, 5x Burst Laser.  Point Defense + Energy spec + Gunnery Implants + expert Shield pilot, IPDAI hullmod.  Mod your Enforcers with Escort Package and Expanded Missile Racks, equip them 2x Dual Flak Cannon, 2x Heavy Needler, 1x Heavy Mauler (or more flux instead if you prefer), 4x Harpoon MRM.  Your escorts will completely nullify all missiles and most strike craft from any size Remnant fleet, including full Ordos with Nexus assistance.  Storm Needlers and Heavy Needlers will take care of Remnant shields, and the energy hardpoint weapons plus maybe a few assault guns will take care of ship armor.  4x Harpoon on the XIV Onslaughts are nice, too.  Full alpha Ordos last maybe 90 seconds against this fleet so it makes a lot of sense to Shield Shunt your Onslaughts since you'll win the race.

Haven't played enough to fight Threat 3rd Strike fleets, just 1st and 2nd.  That setup handles them so easily, though, that I feel like it might work for 3rd as well.

Needlers are pretty awesome en masse.  Where's the Radiant gonna teleport to if the entire screen is little shards of spite?

[Thaago]

Seems like a good fleet! A battle line of onslaughts with harpoons and destroyer escorts is classic for a reason. I prefer moving the kinetic damage on the onslaughts to secondary weapons and leaving the larges for HAGs, but storm needlers do bring the kinetic pain (at somewhat close range).

But why are those Medusa using Railguns instead of needlers?! Moooore Neeedlesssss. /silly

Side note that's not silly: no extended shields S modded? How do your Medusa do? I have the feeling I might be being too conservative with mine and missing out on other power by focusing so much on 360 shields.

[Edit] Second side note, how have I never noticed that S-mod emag Heavy Burst Laser competes with Phase Lance so well? Less armor penetration (500 vs 225) but same DPS, slightly better flux efficiency, and PD so with the right officer it can stack elite PD and advanced optics for a flat +400 range. IPDAI + skill = +100% damage vs fighters and missiles, too. Lots of investment here (elite skill, S mod), but seems like a good payoff...

[prav]

Onslaughts are pretty good.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Full alpha Ordos last maybe 90 seconds against this fleet

Here's what is actually going to happen: the Remnant will pop all these Enforcers like they're balloons at which point it will be three Onslaughts against the world(Medusas won't be able to do much here)

You're welcome to provide video evidence to the contrary, I'm sure Vanshilar would love to see a full Alpha Ordo beaten in 90 seconds.

[Thaago]

Full alpha Ordos last maybe 90 seconds against this fleet

Here's what is actually going to happen: the Remnant will pop all these Enforcers like they're balloons at which point it will be three Onslaughts against the world(Medusas won't be able to do much here)

You're welcome to provide video evidence to the contrary, I'm sure Vanshilar would love to see a full Alpha Ordo beaten in 90 seconds.

... do you have any evidence that the Medusas will do nothing? That is an outlandish, extraordinary claim that really requires evidence on your end, rather than you being the one asking for it. There are multiple threads about how Medusas are one of the ideal endgame destroyers, tough and fast enough to hunt Ordos even without escort package boosting the shields.

For Enforcers, I am using them right now vs Ordo enemies. I don't think they are as good as Medusas (totally different role), or as Sunders or Manticores in the fire support role. But they aren't dying! They are tougher than either of the other fire support destroyers I like by a wide margin.

You've mentioned things dying vs Ordos before that's made me scratch my head - like that thread a while back where you claimed cruisers can't survive the fight either (and they can, including getting jumped by a capital, as was demonstrated by like a half dozen people). For some reason Ordos are just way more dangerous in your game than in mine or anyone elses.

[DirectionsToL3Please]

But why are those Medusa using Railguns instead of needlers?! Moooore Neeedlesssss. /silly

Side note that's not silly: no extended shields S modded? How do your Medusa do?

[Edit] Second side note, how have I never noticed that S-mod emag Heavy Burst Laser competes with Phase Lance so well? Less armor penetration (500 vs 225) but same DPS, slightly better flux efficiency, and PD so with the right officer it can stack elite PD and advanced optics for a flat +400 range. IPDAI + skill = +100% damage vs fighters and missiles, too. Lots of investment here (elite skill, S mod), but seems like a good payoff...

Railguns instead of needlers because of flux management.  I haven't done the math, so you can correct me if you'd like, but the Medusae take a lot of shield flux and I don't want them to run up their soft flux to the point where one volley from a capital or pair of cruisers pops them like balloons.

No extended shields, no.  I've never noticed a need for them with the Medusa.  Hardened Sheidls is a *fantastic* third S-mod if you use that skill

And yes, those PD burst lasers are astonishingly good if you'll stack Extended Magazines S-Mod, Advanced Optics (theory yields to practice, here - you don't need all that turn speed for the burst lasers when they're on maneuverable ships in the first place) and the elite Point Defense pilot skill.  If you'll build three officers from the beginning - or get very lucky with your Level 7 finds - it makes the Medusa a truly phenomenal room sweeper so the big ships can lay down the law.

[prav]

Plus it looks really cool with all those lasers going tick-tick-tick.

[PixiCode]

Medusa and light needlers are an interesting topic. The short of it in my eyes is that light needlers pair extremely well with the Medusa's capacity for strike attacks and also does better than the railgun for flux efficiency in a prolonged fight, but also pair very poorly with the Medusa AI's phase skimmer (We love using up all our soft flux to shoot light needlers, only to cancel the light needler shots with a phase skim!) and can be prone to being armor tanked depending on your other weapons.  I think this means railguns or light needlers are both good on Medusa and their individual weaknesses mean it's probably about the same end result? Then there's also the idea of PD Elite boosted machine guns in those slots, All really cool to think about. And past that, there's the idea of using kinetic fragments or mass drivers, hehe.

Focusing on the OP topic, mirroring Bungee Man's thoughts, we have a lot of builds that can win against every enemy you can fight against, not just lowtech kinetics with PD. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It depends on how easy the build was to create, how many resources (officers, smods, unique/notable ships like Onslaught MK1, player skills, etc) it needed and the like.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

... do you have any evidence that the Medusas will do nothing? That is an outlandish, extraordinary claim that really requires evidence on your end, rather than you being the one asking for it. There are multiple threads about how Medusas are one of the ideal endgame destroyers, tough and fast enough to hunt Ordos even without escort package boosting the shields.

These Medusas usually have SO and actual weapons such as Phase Lances or Heavy Blasters. OP's Medusas have two Railguns and 7(!) PD weapons. Then he apparently puts them to guard Onslaughts(since they have escort package) because we all know Onslaughts are so vulnerable to fighters they need a dedicated PD destroyer...

For some reason Ordos are just way more dangerous in your game than in mine or anyone elses.

I don't use a flagship so yeah, they are literally more dangerous in my game than in yours. But OP didn't mention a flagship either.

[DirectionsToL3Please]

These Medusas usually have SO and actual weapons such as Phase Lances or Heavy Blasters. OP's Medusas have two Railguns and 7(!) PD weapons. Then he apparently puts them to guard Onslaughts(since they have escort package) because we all know Onslaughts are so vulnerable to fighters they need a dedicated PD destroyer...

You've missed the point, which explains why you don't understand how this setup works.  You don't escort the capitals to keep them safe.  You escort the capitals to make your destroyers twice as deadly.  And with capital-grade PD coming from your destroyer escorts, you free up all your capital weapons for highly lethal concentrated fire.

No wonder you have trouble with Ordos.  If you can't see how the pieces work together, you likely don't have a well-built fleet.

[Sakamoto]

Full alpha Ordos last maybe 90 seconds against this fleet

Here's what is actually going to happen: the Remnant will pop all these Enforcers like they're balloons at which point it will be three Onslaughts against the world(Medusas won't be able to do much here)

You're welcome to provide video evidence to the contrary, I'm sure Vanshilar would love to see a full Alpha Ordo beaten in 90 seconds.

Here's 4 Legions and 8 XIV Enforcers absolutely wrecking 2 Ordos.