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Author Topic: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator  (Read 3270 times)

Bummelei

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Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« on: May 04, 2025, 04:43:53 PM »

After having a great time playing with Grendel, Eradicator and Retribution, I decided to turn my attention to the Dominator. No one talks about it, it's like it doesn't exist, and the rare comments about it boil down to a simple phrase "just take Onslaught". Something is wrong here. So I decided to test it. And the result was somewhat disappointing to my expectations. Let's start in order:

1. Maneuverability and OP taxation.

The ship, like all other ships with frontal weapon mounts, suffers from the inability to engage multiple targets at once, but compared to a light Hammerhead or Midline cruisers with a maneuverability system, the Dominator is a complete brick that has truly colossal problems with this.
The ship requires both maneuverability perks, Auxiliary Thrusters and in no case S-modded Heavy Armor. We've only just begun.
He needs a means to fight off flanking opponents:

Kinetics in medium mounts? Suboptimal. Without defensive mounts, the frontal hemisphere is open to being pounded by all types of missiles and torpedoes, and offensive mounts pale in comparison to the options provided by small mounts. Therefore, offensive weapons with a Ballistic Rangefinder.
Let's summarize: in total 47 OP + ITU 15 OP + 2 maneuverability perks out of the basic 5.

But why did I even decide that this was necessary? Empirical experience. I played with the Dominator for a long time, and I can say that the Dominator without this "minimum" is simply a punching bag, it simply cannot keep up with the flanking enemy, who ultimately comes to its rear with an obvious result. At the same time, the described measures allow the ship to feel much more confident and if regarding the issue with maneuverability I have seen the difference with my own eyes on my ships, then regarding small mounts I have also seen it on opponents (railguns help the ship a lot).

My suggestions? Increase the ship's maneuverability by 50% and integrate the Ballistic Rangefinder as was done with the Lasher in its time. Having played with these settings, I can say that the ship finally feels like its 25 DP.


2. Sub mediocre weapons:

Annihilator Pod.
The most optimal options for Dominator loadouts require Harpoons and possibly Gorgons (at the time of writing, I completely forgot about them). PCLs work better on capital ships, Reapers are deceptively good, and Sabot seems completely out of place. Annihilator Pod. An option that seems like a glove for the ship, but in practice is a trap:

Low HP.
Slow projectile speed.
Terrible rate of fire.

Even when assembling a ship entirely for them, they simply hang like dead weight. Almost every second ship in the enemy team has a perk for PD, in battles against Low-Tech and Remnants, even taking ECCM, the player rarely sees hits, all missiles are simply shot down on approach.
I suggest adding stats to the Annihilators and if necessary increasing their OP cost, because in modern realities it is difficult to imagine their use not only on the Dominator, but also on other ships for the banal reason of the existence of PCL (even nerfed).

Gauss Gun.
Everything is simpler here. This weapon is rarely worth mentioning - a gigantic flux profile against the background of suboptimal DPM completely bury it not only on the flux-starved Dominator, but also on other ships (people in 10 out of 10 cases simply take Mjolnir). With all the other disadvantages (long warm-up, terrible turn speed that does not get better with hullmod) its cost monstrously limits its use, literally making it impractical.
After the Multi-Needler was brought back to life by buffs, I would like to believe that a similar fate awaits the Gauss Gun. In my opinion, this is one of the options that could greatly help Dominator.

It would be interesting to hear your opinion on this matter.
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prav

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2025, 04:47:27 PM »

and the rare comments about it boil down to a simple phrase "just take Onslaught". Something is wrong here.

Yeah - the Onslaught is undercosted.
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Skittish

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2025, 05:03:37 PM »

and the rare comments about it boil down to a simple phrase "just take Onslaught". Something is wrong here.

Yeah - the Onslaught is undercosted.

Even if that was true, the dominator would still suck. You make it 50 and its still worthless to bring 2 dominators over an onslaught, you go to the absolute extreme and make it 60 and...bringing two dominators and a random destroyer would barely be better if at all.

Meanwhile there are multiple 40 dp combinations right now that are arguably as valuable as bringing an onslaught. This is a dominator issue.
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Bummelei

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2025, 05:05:13 PM »

and the rare comments about it boil down to a simple phrase "just take Onslaught". Something is wrong here.

Yeah - the Onslaught is undercosted.

Even if that was true, the dominator would still suck. You make it 50 and its still worthless to bring 2 dominators over an onslaught, you go to the absolute extreme and make it 60 and...bringing two dominators and a random destroyer would barely be better if at all.

Meanwhile there are multiple 40 dp combinations right now that are arguably as valuable as bringing an onslaught. This is a dominator issue.

This ^
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2025, 05:09:55 PM »

Meanwhile there are multiple 40 dp combinations right now that are arguably as valuable as bringing an onslaught. This is a dominator issue.
name them, so we can nerf them too

and the rare comments about it boil down to a simple phrase "just take Onslaught". Something is wrong here.

Yeah - the Onslaught is undercosted.
the Onslaught DP being 40 is okay, considering it can only focus 3-2 of its weapons, lacks flux, has a bad shield. Armour gets really negated by a lot of things. And is exceptionally slow. Being only able to move forward with burn drive

The main issue with it is TPC + Expanded Mags + Storm Needler combos, etc.

After the Multi-Needler was brought back to life by buffs, I would like to believe that a similar fate awaits the Gauss Gun. In my opinion, this is one of the options that could greatly help Dominator.

It would be interesting to hear your opinion on this matter.
Comparing Gauss to Storm Needler and then saying that there is finally a reason to pick Storm Needler is something I think should not be how the game is... Built

But who cares... Whatever

TPC needs to have 200 flux per shot, instead of 150. So Expanded Mags s-mod can't just allow the Onslaught to indefinitely fire 0.6 flux efficiency 2000 range projectiles that pierce medium to heavy armour. That doesn't make any sense

The ship, like all other ships with frontal weapon mounts, suffers from the inability to engage multiple targets at once, but compared to a light Hammerhead or Midline cruisers with a maneuverability system, the Dominator is a complete brick that has truly colossal problems with this.
That's intended. Eagle is just overpowered

My suggestions? Increase the ship's maneuverability by 50% and integrate the Ballistic Rangefinder as was done with the Lasher in its time. Having played with these settings, I can say that the ship finally feels like its 25 DP.
You gave it Eradicator's turning stats. Faster actually
18 18 vs 15 20



If you want to buff the Dominator whilst preserving its original identiy. I guess I could give a proposition. Even though I'm no longer a fan of buffing things. Except carriers maybe and some deserving junk ships like Vanguard

Reduce LMG and DLMG costs to 2 and 4, instead of 3 and 5
So, it's easier for a Dominator to guard its flanks without spending so much of its OP budget

Increase its mobility stats to 15 15 instead of 12 12, not a big fan of this. But meh. Instead of 18 18 (edit: note, doing this will make Mora look weird in comparison. It has 10 10 turn stats. It should have 12 12. Taking over Dominator's old position)

Champion for comparison has 15 20 if I read correctly

Buff Shield Shunt to provide 25% bonus armour instead of 15%. Shield Shunt is Dominator's bread and butter. This will buff the Onslaught too. But we should nerf the Onslaught. So something in return wouldn't hurt

I don't know... You wanna buff Gauss?
Probably increase damage from 700 to 1000. Unsure. 900 maybe?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2025, 05:29:46 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Bummelei

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2025, 05:26:33 PM »

Comparing Gauss to Storm Needler and then saying that there is finally a reason to pick Storm Needler is something I think should not be how the game is... Built

But who cares... Whatever

TPC needs to have 200 flux per shot, instead of 150. So Expanded Mags s-mod can't just allow the Onslaught to indefinitely fire 0.6 flux efficiency 2000 range projectiles that pierce medium to heavy armour. That doesn't make any sense
Personally, I don't see any problems with Onslaught. I'm constantly messing around with Hegemony and I wouldn't say that TPC causes any particular problems, even with s-mod Mags Onslaught doesn't feel like something terribly unbalanced.

That's intended. Eagle is just overpowered
Heh, nice try.

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Bummelei

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2025, 05:49:55 PM »

You gave it Eradicator's turning stats. Faster actually
18 18 vs 15 20



If you want to buff the Dominator whilst preserving its original identiy. I guess I could give a proposition. Even though I'm no longer a fan of buffing things. Except carriers maybe and some deserving junk ships like Vanguard

Reduce LMG and DLMG costs to 2 and 4, instead of 3 and 5
So, it's easier for a Dominator to guard its flanks without spending so much of its OP budget

Increase its mobility stats to 15 15 instead of 12 12, not a big fan of this. But meh. Instead of 18 18

Champion for comparison has 15 20 if I read correctly

Buff Shield Shunt to provide 25% bonus armour instead of 15%. Shield Shunt is Dominator's bread and butter. This will buff the Onslaught too. But we should nerf the Onslaught. So something in return wouldn't hurt

I don't know... You wanna buff Gauss?
Probably increase damage from 700 to 1000. Unsure. 900 maybe?

Okay, I agree 50% is too much, 25% is enough, I miscalculated. It's late, I can't think straight.

As for the rest, my idea is to make an immobile fortress out of the Dominator, so to speak, an oversized Enforcer, the LMG cost won't help in any way in a situation where the ship wants railguns or needlers. Right now it's just a brick with a rifle sticking out of it. Doesn't inspire much excitement, does it?

As for the Gauss Gun, the barrel is generally sensible, it's just that no one else can afford it except the basic Legion: it's too expensive for the Dominator, too expensive for the Manticore, and the Invictus is also suffocated by such a flux cost (then it's easier to put Mjolnirs again, they're better in everything at the same price). On top of that, the one-time damage is already quite tolerable, 700 is enough to penetrate light and medium armor, with 900 and even more so 1000 you will want to howl in pain when meeting Gauss on the enemy side.

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Selfcontrol

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2025, 05:52:13 PM »

Regardless of its actual power, the Dominator suffers mostly from being a baby Onslaught. The Dominator is a big fat brick with lots of hull, armor and 3 medium missiles. The Onslaught is an even bigger fat brick with even more armor, hull and medium missiles. Its role is too similar to the Onslaught's role whereas other cruisers fill a unique niche even inside their own tech line (although there's a case to be made for the Fury being a baby Aurora).

No amount of buff will fix this unless you buff it so much that it starts becoming some sort of "super cruiser". And I do find your proposed buffs to be quite extreme (especially the increased maneuverability).

I think there's room for buffs though. Probably a bit more Flux Capacity ? Flux Capacity is always nice and the Dominator struggles a bit with Flux since the nerfs to Ordnance Expertise.

Quote
Gauss Gun.
Everything is simpler here. This weapon is rarely worth mentioning - a gigantic flux profile against the background of suboptimal DPM completely bury it not only on the flux-starved Dominator, but also on other ships (people in 10 out of 10 cases simply take Mjolnir). With all the other disadvantages (long warm-up, terrible turn speed that does not get better with hullmod) its cost monstrously limits its use, literally making it impractical.

After testing it a bit more (thanks to the guy here that outlasted a Threat fleet using them), I find the Gauss Cannon to be ... weird ?

I think it's the only weapon in the game your fleet should be built around. I honestly had good results with Gausses by sprinkling them among quite a few ships in my fleet. The more Gausses you add, the better they become overall. But a single ship or even 2 ships armed with Gausses tend to be dead weight.

I don't know what to think about them anymore. The Gauss Cannon is a simple weapon, but also a really weird one.
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prav

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2025, 05:54:08 PM »

When two ships do the same thing the same way, one will be better at it and that one will get used.

the Onslaught DP being 40 is okay, considering it can only focus 3-2 of its weapons, lacks flux, has a bad shield. Armour gets really negated by a lot of things. And is exceptionally slow. Being only able to move forward with burn drive

It's slow, but it's still good at being where it needs to be, which is what matters. Burn drive goes in the right direction.
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Wyvern

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2025, 05:56:35 PM »

Yeah, people swear by their Onslaughts and sleep on the Dominator and I really don't understand why; in most cases I'd rather take the Dominator.

I think it may be partly due to the Cult of the Vulcan? I've seen people post Dominator builds that are just 100% vulcans in the smalls, and then they wonder why it fares poorly without heavy support and a line of battle so things can't flank it at all ever.

You do need at least one maneuverability boost, yes. But there are three available boosts, and ideally you want Impact Mitigation for a Dominator anyway so Elite Impact Mitigation isn't generally a high opportunity cost.

My preferred setup is:
2x flak (or dual flak, either works): You use the medium slots for PD because medium ballistic PD is really exceptionally good compared to every other PD option out there.
3x premium light kinetic gun, in the front three small turrets: Small ballistic kinetics are high efficiency and decent DPS. Putting primary armor-crackers in small slots doesn't work; putting primary kinetics in small slots does, so these go here. I'll generally go with 2x light needler and 1x railgun or light mass driver, but really any of the premium kinetic options work fine.
2x hellbore: You do need armor cracking, and the hellbore is cheap and flux-efficient armor cracking.
2x light assault gun, in the left-and-right side-facing turrets. These do really good work against destroyers, frigates, and fighters, and are key to having a Dominator build that is less vulnerable to flanking.
2x light autocannon, rear-left and rear-right: cheap anti-shield for dealing with flanking ships. Gets the job done at minimal cost.
2x vulcan, rearmost two turrets: Vulcans are kinda trash at actually shooting down missiles, but your choices are vulcans or mining lasers and mining lasers are worse at handling more than one missile at a time. It's still a good idea to invest in an omni shield emitter or insulated engines, though.
3x whatever medium missile floats your boat. I do tend to like gorgons, as they perform well at hitting smaller flanking ships, further buffering the Dominator's usual weakness, but you can make solid arguments for literally any of the options.

Ballistic Rangefinder is surprisingly not mandatory; I used this sort of build to good effect before that hullmod even existed, and it works fine without it even now. What is mandatory is some form of improved defense against EMP - hullmods like resistant flux conduits, armored weapon mounts, automated repair unit, and/or officer skills like impact mitigation or damage control. You don't need all of those for normal opponents, but you definitely need at least something. (Oh, and you also need ITU, of course.)
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Brainwright

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2025, 08:40:32 PM »

I've had some luck using dominators as fast strike craft.  Load them up with a needler and dev, no range boosts, and three racks of Jackhammers.  Throw them at the biggest ships in the opposing fleets, and they can sometimes perform miracles.

Primary flaw is that they don't use Burn Drive to engage their close range weapons regardless of attitude, so they can get caught just out of range, but they do consistently burn hard in a direct retreat.  If I ever can get them working right, I would be able to use them to bully and kill a few ships in repeated engagements until the enemy fleet is destroyed.  Fun times.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2025, 08:57:31 PM »

Dominators being vulnerable to flanking is part of the design. It's also mostly irrelevant since ships in a battle line can't be flanked.

The problem is that it's an armored cruiser, and armor scales with size. In endgame scenarios only Onlsaughts and Legions can actually armor tank.

So Dominators can't keep up at endgame, but earlier in the game where battles are more chaotic they can easily get flanked...
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Phenir

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2025, 09:15:02 PM »

Dominator only has 150 (250 with heavy armor) less armor than legion, it's not that bad. Real problem is the annoying armor turning it does when its flux gets high. Onslaught and legion side step this issue with turrets, dominator can't. As soon as it gets in a bit of trouble, it just enters a death spiral (literally) where it doesn't shoot its big guns at the enemy which means that enemy can just keep shooting back without worry so it keeps spinning and dies.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2025, 09:30:50 PM »

Dominator only has 150 (250 with heavy armor) less armor than legion, it's not that bad. Real problem is the annoying armor turning it does when its flux gets high. Onslaught and legion side step this issue with turrets, dominator can't. As soon as it gets in a bit of trouble, it just enters a death spiral (literally) where it doesn't shoot its big guns at the enemy which means that enemy can just keep shooting back without worry so it keeps spinning and dies.
Can it be solved with more aggressive AI or is it an universal thing?
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Unloved and Forgotten - Dominator
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2025, 09:44:08 PM »

Regardless of its actual power, the Dominator suffers mostly from being a baby Onslaught. The Dominator is a big fat brick with lots of hull, armor and 3 medium missiles. The Onslaught is an even bigger fat brick with even more armor, hull and medium missiles. Its role is too similar to the Onslaught's role whereas other cruisers fill a unique niche even inside their own tech line (although there's a case to be made for the Fury being a baby Aurora).

No amount of buff will fix this unless you buff it so much that it starts becoming some sort of "super cruiser". And I do find your proposed buffs to be quite extreme (especially the increased maneuverability).

I think there's room for buffs though. Probably a bit more Flux Capacity ? Flux Capacity is always nice and the Dominator struggles a bit with Flux since the nerfs to Ordnance Expertise.

Quote
Gauss Gun.
Everything is simpler here. This weapon is rarely worth mentioning - a gigantic flux profile against the background of suboptimal DPM completely bury it not only on the flux-starved Dominator, but also on other ships (people in 10 out of 10 cases simply take Mjolnir). With all the other disadvantages (long warm-up, terrible turn speed that does not get better with hullmod) its cost monstrously limits its use, literally making it impractical.

After testing it a bit more (thanks to the guy here that outlasted a Threat fleet using them), I find the Gauss Cannon to be ... weird ?

I think it's the only weapon in the game your fleet should be built around. I honestly had good results with Gausses by sprinkling them among quite a few ships in my fleet. The more Gausses you add, the better they become overall. But a single ship or even 2 ships armed with Gausses tend to be dead weight.

I don't know what to think about them anymore. The Gauss Cannon is a simple weapon, but also a really weird one.
And I learned this tidbit of weird information several versions ago from a mod that introduced a capital battle carrier that had a main weapon that was functionally a turret with three Gauss Cannons stapled together. I then spammed said capital and beat everything as nothing could actually approach me. I have no idea what mod it was a part of or what its name is, but I do remember the three Gauss Cannon turret and the weird special fighter it had built in that would change its weapons.
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