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[Cryovolcanic]

Any casual gamer is going to quit this game the second they see the refit screen regardless. Let's not kid ourselves, Starsector is a niche autismo-deluxe game appealing to spreadsheet enthusiasts. A late game challenge doesn't need to hold anyone's hand here.

This is no joke, I have a handful of Starsector spreadsheets just to crunch different numbers. I don't even know what Borderland is.

[Killer of Fate]

Any casual gamer is going to quit this game the second they see the refit screen regardless. Let's not kid ourselves, Starsector is a niche autismo-deluxe game appealing to spreadsheet enthusiasts. A late game challenge doesn't need to hold anyone's hand here.

This is no joke, I have a handful of Starsector spreadsheets just to crunch different numbers. I don't even know what Borderland is.

it's a game in which you walk around deserts and there is a car

[XJD]

So are we all happy now 

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

So are we all happy now 

No, I just got it and it's objectively worse than an XIV Onslaught, and slightly worse (debatably) than a normal Onslaught in terms of its DP. It definitely needs 1,500 armor. Its built-in weapons can't act as reliable PD due to being hardpoints, meaning you need to sacrifice the large front mount for PD. Due to having no shield, you can't take shield shunt, which means buffing its armor for pure armor tanking is ineffective when compared to the normal Onslaught or Legion. It has anemic OP meaning after hull mods all you can really afford to outfit it with in terms of kinetics is Arbalest Autocannons.

Even stating you can grab it at the start of the game isn't an excuse as you can grab a Legion (XIV) which is better for its DP.

It's lone saving grace is it can take an Alpha Core for free, which when buffing everything for hull tanking, you can make it exceptionally survivable thanks to Elite Combat Endurance + Field Repairs being slightly broken in terms of single conflict, but multiple rounds battle healing.

Crank up its armor, give it more OP or make its main weapons overpowered again to fill the gap in OP.

[HUcast]

Its good now, I think. Before the nerf patch I legitimately had it beat 6 (admittedly unofficered) onslaughts at the same time in sim. For a 50 DP ship that's nuts. Now, it still cleaves through enemy formations and is a great wedge to follow, it just doesn't do the job by itself.

Try pairing it with an Anubis as an escort, it gives you much more play with it's weapons when it has a PD buddy!

[Hiruma Kai]

No, I just got it and it's objectively worse than an XIV Onslaught, and slightly worse (debatably) than a normal Onslaught in terms of its DP.

Having just tried the Onslaught Mk I in a couple single Ordo battles in RC7, I think it feels like it is still worth using at 50 DP.  I don't think it has the endurance for a triple Ordo, but might be able to handle a double Ordo on a strong battle line where incoming DPS is reduced.  I've been using it in a Neural Link Radiant + Afflictor, Paragon, Onslaught Mk I, Eagle x2, Medusa fleet, so it doesn't have the endurance for a double Ordo in that fleet composition.  Combat 5, Leadership 2, Tech 8 build.  It needs to pull its weight in such a fleet, being one of 3 capital ships, and only 7 total ships, and it feels like it does.  Build was s-mod Expanded Magazines and ITU, then Heavy Armor, Armored Weapon Mounts, Automated Repair Unit, Auxiliary thrusters.  Storm Needler, 2x Devastator, Disintegrator, 6x Arbalest, 4x Flak cannon, 2x Typhoon. Combat Endurance, Impact Mitigation, Damage Control, Target Analysis, Ballistic Mastery, Gunnery Implants, Ordinance Expertise, and Systems Expertise (for -10% damage, although perhaps should be something else).

For example, one fight I split left and right to grab objectives for deployment limit, and guessed wrong on where the enemy fleet was heading. Onslaught Mk I and the Medusa on escort took the brunt of the enemy fleet for a minute or two, engaging a Radiant and Nova plus some escorts, killed the Nova, and was forcing the Radiant and escorts back fluxed.  It was down some hull but regening slowly by the time I got back over there, I think it was back up to full by the time the fight ended.

Part of it probably has to do with the Vambraces being a fully independent set of armor, which the AI seems to prioritize when even slightly to the sides.  I've seen the sim Radiant with 5 Tachyon lances explicitly target the vambrace rather than the front of the ship from a good distance away - probably has something to do with the geometry and distance to center of mass or closest boundry.  30000 + 15000 + 15000 hull is a lot of hull, plus that 1200 armor has to be gotten through twice on the sides as well, and prevents ion arcs to actual weapons/engines.  So while on paper a shield shunted Onslaught XIV should have more survivability with 2800+ worth of armor, even a more modest 1820 on the Onslaught MK I goes a long way, especially when you can guarantee all the armor tanking skills and some offensive skills.

Since Heavy Adjucators have low flux/damage relative to Thermal Pulse Cannons (0.52 vs 0.6 against Armor and Shield, and 0.13 vs 0.6 against hull), the base ship flux dissipation of 500 vs 600 doesn't strike me as that bad.  They also get the DPS buff from elite Ballistic Mastery, which TPCs don't, making them further efficient.  And once those Adjucators start hitting hull, it is all over very quickly.

So, assuming I'm not doing endurance trials for the fun of it, I'll still probably take the Onslaught MK I with an integrated Alpha core and s-modded Expanded magazines over an Onslaught XIV with only a level 5 or 6 officer.

What I do feel is perhaps the biggest issue is that s-mod expanded magazines feels even more mandatory on the ship than before, however.  Dropping recharge time from 20 seconds down to 13.3 seconds is going to feel far more meaningful to a player's perception of time than 10 seconds to 6.7 seconds.

I do wonder if the presence of that particular s-mod is motivating some of Alex's changes to various numbers for both the Paladin and the Onslaught MK I, and perhaps the 50% charge rate bonus is too large if it feels needed on certain ship types.  I'll note other similarly large bonuses, like the old Missile Specialization fire rate bonus, were eventually toned down to 25%.  Missile regen bonus from that skill is also only 25%.

I guess my question is, do people have some experience with an Onslaught XIV and Onslaught MK I, with specific situations where the Onslaught XIV seems to significantly outperform the Onslaught MK I?

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

No, I just got it and it's objectively worse than an XIV Onslaught, and slightly worse (debatably) than a normal Onslaught in terms of its DP.

Having just tried the Onslaught Mk I in a couple single Ordo battles in RC7, I think it feels like it is still worth using at 50 DP.  I don't think it has the endurance for a triple Ordo, but might be able to handle a double Ordo on a strong battle line where incoming DPS is reduced.  I've been using it in a Neural Link Radiant + Afflictor, Paragon, Onslaught Mk I, Eagle x2, Medusa fleet, so it doesn't have the endurance for a double Ordo in that fleet composition.  Combat 5, Leadership 2, Tech 8 build.  It needs to pull its weight in such a fleet, being one of 3 capital ships, and only 7 total ships, and it feels like it does.  Build was s-mod Expanded Magazines and ITU, then Heavy Armor, Armored Weapon Mounts, Automated Repair Unit, Auxiliary thrusters.  Storm Needler, 2x Devastator, Disintegrator, 6x Arbalest, 4x Flak cannon, 2x Typhoon. Combat Endurance, Impact Mitigation, Damage Control, Target Analysis, Ballistic Mastery, Gunnery Implants, Ordinance Expertise, and Systems Expertise (for -10% damage, although perhaps should be something else).

For example, one fight I split left and right to grab objectives for deployment limit, and guessed wrong on where the enemy fleet was heading. Onslaught Mk I and the Medusa on escort took the brunt of the enemy fleet for a minute or two, engaging a Radiant and Nova plus some escorts, killed the Nova, and was forcing the Radiant and escorts back fluxed.  It was down some hull but regening slowly by the time I got back over there, I think it was back up to full by the time the fight ended.

Part of it probably has to do with the Vambraces being a fully independent set of armor, which the AI seems to prioritize when even slightly to the sides.  I've seen the sim Radiant with 5 Tachyon lances explicitly target the vambrace rather than the front of the ship from a good distance away - probably has something to do with the geometry and distance to center of mass or closest boundry.  30000 + 15000 + 15000 hull is a lot of hull, plus that 1200 armor has to be gotten through twice on the sides as well, and prevents ion arcs to actual weapons/engines.  So while on paper a shield shunted Onslaught XIV should have more survivability with 2800+ worth of armor, even a more modest 1820 on the Onslaught MK I goes a long way, especially when you can guarantee all the armor tanking skills and some offensive skills.

Since Heavy Adjucators have low flux/damage relative to Thermal Pulse Cannons (0.52 vs 0.6 against Armor and Shield, and 0.13 vs 0.6 against hull), the base ship flux dissipation of 500 vs 600 doesn't strike me as that bad.  They also get the DPS buff from elite Ballistic Mastery, which TPCs don't, making them further efficient.  And once those Adjucators start hitting hull, it is all over very quickly.

So, assuming I'm not doing endurance trials for the fun of it, I'll still probably take the Onslaught MK I with an integrated Alpha core and s-modded Expanded magazines over an Onslaught XIV with only a level 5 or 6 officer.

What I do feel is perhaps the biggest issue is that s-mod expanded magazines feels even more mandatory on the ship than before, however.  Dropping recharge time from 20 seconds down to 13.3 seconds is going to feel far more meaningful to a player's perception of time than 10 seconds to 6.7 seconds.

I do wonder if the presence of that particular s-mod is motivating some of Alex's changes to various numbers for both the Paladin and the Onslaught MK I, and perhaps the 50% charge rate bonus is too large if it feels needed on certain ship types.  I'll note other similarly large bonuses, like the old Missile Specialization fire rate bonus, were eventually toned down to 25%.  Missile regen bonus from that skill is also only 25%.

I guess my question is, do people have some experience with an Onslaught XIV and Onslaught MK I, with specific situations where the Onslaught XIV seems to significantly outperform the Onslaught MK I?

It can handle a double Ordo, I already did it.
I did some more testing. No s-mods no AI, it is worse than an Onslaught XIV, and debatably worse than a normal Onslaught for its DP.
Any "normal" build it's still worse than XIV. However, a full hull and PD meme build beats pretty much any XIV in terms of effectiveness.
At a maximum of 51,000 hull it can restore up to 25,500 hull per round of combat, which I believe gets reset each retreat and re-engage.
Its OP issues get resolved by replacing the Arbalests with HMGs and taking PD for the 200+ range.

Full meme build is as follows.
5 HMGs, 4 Arbalests on the sides (I ran out of HMGs), three Devastators, and two Flak cannons.
7 caps 55 Vents.
S-Ex-Mags, S-Reinforced Bulkheads, Insulated Engine Assembly, ARU, ITU, Blast Doors, AWM, and Flux Distributor. + 1 S-mod of your choosing.
Skills are: Combat Endurance, Damage Control, PD, Target Analysis, Ballistic Mastery, System Expertise (for the damage resistance), Gunnery Implants, and Polarized Armor (for EMP resistance).

It came out of a single round of combat against two full sized Ordos, from a red system I've been farming, at full hull. It was assisted by my Nova/Executor fleet where it replaced one of the Executors in the battleline. You can swap PA out for something else, but it's debatable how worth it anything else is.

[Draba]

I don't think it has the endurance for a triple Ordo, but might be able to handle a double Ordo on a strong battle line where incoming DPS is reduced.
...
Combat Endurance, Impact Mitigation, Damage Control, Target Analysis, Ballistic Mastery, Gunnery Implants, Ordinance Expertise, and Systems Expertise (for -10% damage, although perhaps should be something else).

I did some triple ordos both before/after update and it was fine in both versions, one of 2 capitals and those 2 tanked the most/did the most damage relative to DP in the fleet.
Worth trying polarized armor as it gives a bit of everything needed: EMP resist, overall damage reduction, tons of chip damage reduction.

Before it did ~2x as much pro rata as autopulse Paragon and slightly more than 4x abyssal glare Paragon.
Now it generally does ~0.5x the damage of 4x abyssal glare Paragon, bu abyssal glare is pretty overpowered so that's not saying too much.
(detailed combat results doesn't show the damage from adjudicators, but it is included in the pro rata sum)

Spoiler

[close]

Loadout (salamanders are only there because I like them):

Spoiler

[close]

What I do feel is perhaps the biggest issue is that s-mod expanded magazines feels even more mandatory on the ship than before, however.  Dropping recharge time from 20 seconds down to 13.3 seconds is going to feel far more meaningful to a player's perception of time than 10 seconds to 6.7 seconds.

I do wonder if the presence of that particular s-mod is motivating some of Alex's changes to various numbers for both the Paladin and the Onslaught MK I, and perhaps the 50% charge rate bonus is too large if it feels needed on certain ship types.  I'll note other similarly large bonuses, like the old Missile Specialization fire rate bonus, were eventually toned down to 25%.  Missile regen bonus from that skill is also only 25%.

IMO s-modding mags feels mandatory with almost any charge-based weapon, it's definitely too strong.
Bonus could be reduced and the base charge rates buffed where needed.

[Spyro]

Putting capacitors on shield shunted ships is a waste, that 32 OP could be spent on much better things, namely tanking hullmods.

[Draba]

Putting capacitors on shield shunted ships is a waste, that 32 OP could be spent on much better things, namely tanking hullmods.

Don't like those generalisations, just try and refine things and see what works.
30% more capacity means more dakka when things get heavy, and tanking isn't a problem anyway.
S aux thrusters or armored mounts instead of ITU are probably the 2 good changes, after that a case could be made for S ECCM.
RFC/ARU can kinda-sorta work but disables don't seem to be a problem.

Edit: on a second thought, especially with the lower adjudicator recharge rate it can't use flux fast enough so building armored mounts in is definitely better than ITU.
Some battles later: with the slower adjudicators it can't use flux fast enough even with s mounts so yeah, replacing most caps with aux thrusters it is.

[Doctorhealsgood]

I kinda feel a bit despondent because it seems that the MK.1 got nerfed because it blew through a bunch of pirates and similar stuff in the early game and was branded as the spawn of unbalanced hell or something.

[Draba]

I kinda feel a bit despondent because it seems that the MK.1 got nerfed because it blew through a bunch of pirates and similar stuff in the early game and was branded as the spawn of unbalanced hell or something.

It could solo Threat fleets and generally did 400+ pro rata DP damage against ~1200 triple remnants and 300+ against third strike.
You only seeing it against pirates just means you didn't get far enough for other enemies.

[Killer of Fate]

i can confirm that Onslaught MKI on my playthrough was capable of almost soloing the main Shrouded Dweller

It was piloted by a Gamma Core, had the default fit and no s-mods
the Gamma Core was not built-in

[Doctorhealsgood]

Guess it is fine then. I just got the ship so i have no idea if it is weak or not now so it isn't like my word matters much currently.
Update: It seems fine i think? I replaced all the medium slots with thumpers and it is working great so far. I have not tried it on big dangers yet but probably soon i will.

[Vanshilar]

I guess my question is, do people have some experience with an Onslaught XIV and Onslaught MK I, with specific situations where the Onslaught XIV seems to significantly outperform the Onslaught MK I?

Trying out Onslaught XIV and Onslaught Mk 1 side by side against the Shrouded Dwellers (flagship Doom, 6 Anubises) and against double Ordos (flagship Doom, 3 Gryphons and 2 LP Brawlers), I'm not seeing much of a functional difference between them; they both perform about the same, maybe with the Onslaught Mk 1 slightly better, but not worth the extra 10 DP. I even tried running the simulator with them up against Shrouded Maws simultaneously, one on each side (basically, two one-on-one fights side by side, with the Maws spaced far enough apart that the two fights don't affect each other) and they were about the same. Basically I'm getting similar performance out of both of them so it should really be the same 40 DP as the Onslaught XIV, at least in these two use cases. Maybe the Onslaught Mk 1 is better against Threat, I haven't tried that yet, but against the Shrouded Dwellers and against Ordos, I might as well as take Onslaught XIV. And this is using 0.98a-RC5, i.e. the pre-nerf version of the Onslaught Mk 1.

The double Ordos fight was pretty interesting. Gryphon missile spam still works, though not as well as before. On one of the fights, a Paladin Brilliant just wiped off every Harpoon as fast as a Gryphon was launching them. What it is, is that missile spam is no longer an unsupported strategy. That is to say, missile spam needs to have other ships in front for maximum effectiveness. (This is not unlike the Squall nerf where it's still effective, but no longer a one-stop shop, but needs other weapons to follow up for maximum effectiveness.) And so the most surprising thing was that the LP Brawlers contributed quite a bit to the fight -- after capturing objectives, they more or less became part of the front lines, with them distracting enemy ships and prevent them from having any breathing room (and absorbing Paladin shots and such), with the missile spam behind them doing a lot of the damage. You can see in the attached screenshot that each 6-DP LP Brawler contributed around 4-5% of the total damage, while each 20-DP Gryphon contributed around 7-8% of the total damage. That was fairly consistent throughout the runs. Both Onslaughts made up the middle with me in the Doom running around the battlefield, as usual.

The initial formation was LP Brawler - Gryphon - Onslaught (XIV or Mk 1 depending on spawning position) - Gryphon - Onslaught (the other one) - Gryphon - LP Brawler, with the LP Brawlers capturing objectives on either side and then staying on the flanks but in front, with the Gryphons sort of behind and in between each ship. That central Gryphon was just for symmetry so that both Onslaughts had an equal amount of missile support, since I wanted to stay at 200 DP or less for testing.

Over the course of several runs, the average damage of the Onslaught XIV was:

Code

weapon	count	total	shield	armor	hull
TPC	2	23302	14724	4131	4447
har pod	4	20107	7146	4736	8225
heph	3	19227	6522	4980	7725
he need	2	16214	14473	344	1397
li need	2	13703	11815	486	1402
HAC	2	12535	11023	362	1150
total	15	105088	65704	15038	24346

While the average damage for the Onslaught Mk 1 was:

Code

weapon	count	total	shield	armor	hull
he adj	2	33813	12168	4097	17548
heph	3	30135	8436	12712	8987
he need	2	18219	16352	736	1131
HAC	2	15366	13353	532	1481
har pod	2	8547	3148	1946	3453
total	11	106080	53457	20023	32601

(The Heavy Needlers and Heavy Autocannons were in a checkerboard setup instead of range-matched to compare their effectiveness. On some of the runs, the Onslaught XIV also had a couple of Light Autocannons on the sides to see how often it would fire to the sides instead of straight ahead, but I'm ignoring them here; they contributed around 4% of the damage on the runs they were used.)

Basically, the Heavy Adjudicators did more hull damage while the TPC's did more shield damage, which is expected. However, the Onslaught Mk 1 only has 2 instead of 4 medium missile slots for Harpoons (so the Onslaught XIV made up some of the armor/hull damage with the extra Harpoons), plus it lacked the additional small ballistics for more shield damage. So overall, the Onslaught XIV is more anti-shield focused, due to TPC's energy instead of Heavy Adjudicator's frag damage, and due to the extra small ballistics. But the Onslaught Mk 1 seems to be better at finishing, with more armor and hull damage. Again, this was under 0.98a-RC5. With the various nerfs for 0.98a-RC7, the Onslaught XIV will likely be better against Ordos.

If the Threat is more armor/hull, then it makes sense that the Onslaught Mk 1 is more geared toward the Threat compared with other enemies in Starsector. If that's the case, and Alex saying that it's not really meant to be a "hero unit", I wonder if the intent is more for it to be an added boost to fleets trying to fight the Threat, the way the player party gets tag-along NPC's in some RPG's to help with particular battles, instead of a general-purpose ship.