Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Megas]

Shrike is cheap, a destroyer-sized frigate.  Costs only about 20k and is 8 DP, an inferior (and bigger) Tempest.

Hammerhead has standard destroyer costs and burn speed, about 50k and more DP.  If Hammerhead will be like Shrike, it should be cheaper, less money and DP, and faster burn.

[Genir]

I have to say I completely forgot the Shrike

Shrike exemplifies the issue with destroyers, at least in late game. They have to either snipe and stay away from enemy fire or pretend to be frigate, like a Medusa. Otherwise they just die. Shrike tries to go the frigate way, but is still too large and slow. So it just dies. (Thinking of it, Medusa can pull it off probably only because of its OP shields).

[Draba]

I have to say I completely forgot the Shrike

Shrike exemplifies the issue with destroyers, at least in late game. They have to either snipe and stay away from enemy fire or pretend to be frigate, like a Medusa. Otherwise they just die. Shrike tries to go the frigate way, but is still too large and slow. So it just dies. (Thinking of it, Medusa can pull it off probably only because of its OP shields).

Shrike would be a pretty good escort for keeping the sides/back clean, it's fast with good shields for only 8 DP.
Reason it can't be used late is plasma burn, good for early game but for a destroyer it's worse than no system in a fleet fight.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Mate, the default balanced HH is a bracket firing ship. You aren't supposed to hold down LMB with all weapons bound to it.

Tell that to the AI.

[Toxcity]

Throw my hat in as another fan of the OP's suggestion for a revert. I also think the Hammerhead could use some better flux/shield stats. Of the combat destroyers that rely on mediums, it has the worst combination of mounts and speed (compared to Medusa, Enforcer, and Shrike). Letting Hammerhead be the destroyer king of brawling then seems fine.

[kaoseth]

The main problem is, and has always been, hammer heads are a bit squishy.  So why not bring a Sunder instead?  Or get a Medusa/Manticore and not really worry about survivability.  The Enforcer has the same issue. It's not survivable enough for end game fleets. 

So you're saying to cut out ships that can't survive... and replace them with the least defensive destroyer?
Sunder is a massive cheap beatstick, it's not a survival-based escort.

Nope. For smaller ships, range and maneuverability are the primary dictators of survivability in end game fleets.  Sunder survivability is better than a hammerhead in most situations do to having significantly higher range.  Sunders don't escort capital ships.  Capital ships escort Sunders.  BTW, this is also why Manticores are considered viable in end game fleets while Enforcers aren't.  Manticores have 900/1200 range base due to the large ballistic mount. 

I'm also saying Sunder has a place in end game fleets due to being one of the top ships in the finisher role, despite it having the durability of a wet tissue.  If you're going to baby something, baby something that is the best at what it does.  The hammerhead isn't the best at anything. 


Which circles back to this thread's topic.  The Hammerhead needs something more to be compelling to be used end game fleets.  Either a survivability tweak (range/maneuverability), or something else that is unique to hammerheads that make it compelling to bring as part of a fully kitted out fleet.  And that something shouldn't disrupt the early game balance.  My current thought after typing all this out is built in ECM or Nav Relay.  That seems midline-ish?  This won't affect early game much, but it might be compelling enough for players to use a line of Hammerheads in end game fleets.  And now that I typed that out, perhaps a step further?  How about instead of an existing hullmod, it gets a new built in hullmod that reduces the OP cost of ECM, Nav Relay, ECCM, and High Resolution Sensors?  This gives the ship something unique and compelling to players, and it's very easy to be calibrated when balancing as there's a lot of flex room in how much it reduces the OP cost of those hullmods. 

Since we mentioned the Enforcer needing more reason to be used in end game fleets earlier, I think built in Blast Doors might be a direction to go. I think the ship is already a strong choice for trash fleets. If it's nonredeemable in survivability, then recoverability could be a vector for desirability. 

I forgot the Shrike exists.  It's issue is that it's best role, as a hunter-killer, doesn't do much for it. Hunter-Killer role is better performed by a Fury or Aurora. Which may save it?  Perhaps it has it's place in end wolfpack fleets?  It has 10 burn speed.  Perhaps all it needs is a model size reduction of 20%?  I don't know.  It doesn't seem to have a place in traditional big ship anchor or line fleets.  It obviously designed as a smaller Fury, but unlikely the Fury, doesn't have the flux to handle a Heavy Blaster.  One time it did, then HB got nerfed to cost more flux.
 

As a side point, if AI gets fixed to use Burn Drives, Plasma Drives, and other such systems as escape methods, it'd go a long way to solving the Enforcer and Shrike survivability problems. 

[kaoseth]

I have to say I completely forgot the Shrike

Shrike exemplifies the issue with destroyers, at least in late game. They have to either snipe and stay away from enemy fire or pretend to be frigate, like a Medusa. Otherwise they just die. Shrike tries to go the frigate way, but is still too large and slow. So it just dies. (Thinking of it, Medusa can pull it off probably only because of its OP shields).

Medusa pulls it off due to the Phase Jump system.  Regularly during endgame, a Medusa will run into trouble, even with it's superior shield, only to phase jump away from that danger. 

[Wyvern]

You know, ages ago, the Hammerhead's unusual thing was that it had hangar capacity to bring along fighters without having a full fighter bay. If you wanted to give it a thematic buff, a built-in that reduces the limitations of Converted Hangar might be a decent notion.

[happycrow]

You are missing the point : Sunders actually work and pull their weight during all stages.

The same Sunder folks were talking about being OP due to how amazing it is all stages of the game a couple months ago? (I agree that it's not super-great in the early game, but my opinion isn't worth much there) ... so is it OP or is it the benchmark?  And if it's not the benchmark, what destroyer should be?

If you wanted to give it a thematic buff, a built-in that reduces the limitations of Converted Hangar might be a decent notion.

I was just thinking tonight of playing with Hammerhead kitted out as an escort carrier to see how it played out. Would be neat if these old versions (within balance limitations) were all available for futzing around with.

[FooF]

You know, ages ago, the Hammerhead's unusual thing was that it had hangar capacity to bring along fighters without having a full fighter bay. If you wanted to give it a thematic buff, a built-in that reduces the limitations of Converted Hangar might be a decent notion.

I like this idea, especially since it's a call-back.

What if Hammerheads got Borer Drones by default, with Converted Hangar giving it a true Fighter Bay? Borer Drones would give it some much-needed PD without messing with the rear Smalls and don't add a lot of actual firepower. If you do go the CH route, you're paying 10 OP more for a given Wing relative to a true Carrier. If you're using nearly 1/3rd of its OP budget on a single Dagger Wing, it's a huge compromise on everything else. That eats into the Hammerhead's normal functioning and balances out this hybrid carrier thing going on. Since AAF doesn't benefit fighters, it wouldn't step on the Gemini too badly, and the Condor is clearly the better Carrier for the same DP.

From an end game perspective, you could shift the Hammerheads to HVDs/Maulers to keep the flux budget down and then add Wings/Bombers as additional long-range support. That would give them a similar-but-different niche to Beam Sunders or Manticores, or HVD/Mauler Enforcers. At the end of the day, close-range Destroyers just can't survive end game brawls.

Edit:

Just playing around with Hammerheads having Borer Drones, it's actually quite nice. They really help with PD and provide distraction. If I could swap them out for a bona fide Wing, I might but it's also hard to justify 18 OP for Broadswords (unless I S-Mod CH). Am I really gaining that much extra? Is it worth giving up some hullmods for them?

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Nope. For smaller ships, range and maneuverability are the primary dictators of survivability in end game fleets.  Sunder survivability is better than a hammerhead in most situations do to having significantly higher range.  Sunders don't escort capital ships.  Capital ships escort Sunders.  BTW, this is also why Manticores are considered viable in end game fleets while Enforcers aren't.  Manticores have 900/1200 range base due to the large ballistic mount.

Ignoring the "viable Manticores" comment, Enforcers can have 1000 range with HVD/Maulers. So if all you care about is range, Enforcers should be better than Manticores, not the other way around.

Back when Escort Package first released, I tried Sunders with Autopulses(so 700 range) and they did... okay, not as good as beams, but the problem was Autopulse itself and not survivability.

[Princess of Evil]

Wait, you're talking about vanilla Manticores as viable? I thought you meant LP.

[Megas]

What if Hammerheads got Borer Drones by default, with Converted Hangar giving it a true Fighter Bay? Borer Drones would give it some much-needed PD without messing with the rear Smalls and don't add a lot of actual firepower.

Then we will see posts complaining about it wasting bays toward carrier skills like previous posts about Tempest.  Hammerhead does not exactly have OP to spare for a luxury like Converted Fighter Bay to get rid of an unwanted bay, especially when Escort Package seems like a mandatory hullmod late in the game, on top of everything else warships typically get.

If Hammerhead should get a fighter-related bonus, how about an OP discount on Converted Hangar for Hammerhead.  If not, then a new Convertible Hangar built-in that simply eliminates the penalties from Converted Hangar but gives only one bay instead of two bays like Vast Hangar.

Aside, I would not mind a Hound variant that had built-in Talons.  Hound had just enough hangar points for a single Talon wing in its Starfarer days.  Probably ought to be a Pirate variant since Hound and Talons were frequent early-game opponents.

[kaoseth]

Nope. For smaller ships, range and maneuverability are the primary dictators of survivability in end game fleets.  Sunder survivability is better than a hammerhead in most situations do to having significantly higher range.  Sunders don't escort capital ships.  Capital ships escort Sunders.  BTW, this is also why Manticores are considered viable in end game fleets while Enforcers aren't.  Manticores have 900/1200 range base due to the large ballistic mount.

Ignoring the "viable Manticores" comment, Enforcers can have 1000 range with HVD/Maulers. So if all you care about is range, Enforcers should be better than Manticores, not the other way around.

Back when Escort Package first released, I tried Sunders with Autopulses(so 700 range) and they did... okay, not as good as beams, but the problem was Autopulse itself and not survivability.

HVD/Maulers have terrible flux efficiency, and the Enforcer is a low flux ship.  Multiply that together for not much.   

Also, if you're comparing 1000 range class ballistic mediums, then compare it to the ballistic large 1200 range gauss, not the large's 900 range high dps.   

There's also the issue where the AI will use the burn drive to get well solidly in range to cover for it's low top speed. 

 

Wait, you're talking about vanilla Manticores as viable? I thought you meant LP.

There's several examples of viable Manticores.  Look at the stuff MisterG and BigBrainEnergy youtube channels have put out on lowtech.  (gauss or railgun/heph or LAC/Hellbore)

[Killer of Fate]

Wait, you're talking about vanilla Manticores as viable? I thought you meant LP.

Manticore not viable? I thought it was the strongest destroyer in the game besides Remnant ones