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[Killer of Fate]

To be fair, i don't think overloading a Sunder with guns is the right way to use it. And there are very few reasonable guns for the Sunder. It's too fragile to go in close, so you're basically forced to go with the beam loadout.

yes, this is why I would propose downsizing its medium energies to smalls
giving it 400 base armour and 100 base max speed so that its build variety can increase

Beam sunder feels like the only logical way to build a Sunder. And honestly we should nerf HIL or at least ships that use HIL in a way that we redesign them for close quarters combat.

I've made a whole post about that I suppose...
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=31702.0

[happycrow]

I feel like Hammerheads are fine.

Little old un-minmaxed me agrees. I think for some weird reason, Hammerheads get put into "compare with cruisers" territory rather than looked at in comparison to their own peers.

A pair of Hammerheads backing each other up does really well in the early-mid game even unofficered with a standard autolayout. They're not OP, but... nothing should be.

[happycrow]

I could easily imagine there existing an ancient Hammerhead variant used as a dedicated mining ship way back when, using mining blasters, hammer torpedoes and mining lasers all on front, with external cargo bays attached to the ship's spine filling in the empty space on the current militarised version giving it more of a "combat freighter" feel.

Honestly? That would be an amazing ship to pair with Hounds and Ventures and other logistics-enjoyer vessels. I would run the hell out of that variant -- it's what Buffm2 could have been were it still a logistics vessel.

[Bungee_man]

Little old un-minmaxed me agrees. I think for some weird reason, Hammerheads get put into "compare with cruisers" territory rather than looked at in comparison to their own peers.

A pair of Hammerheads backing each other up does really well in the early-mid game even unofficered with a standard autolayout. They're not OP, but... nothing should be.

I think the addition of EP created a progression where destroyers shift from capable all-round vessels in early game to support for capital ships in late game. Hammerheads do fine in stage one (could use some mount reconfiguration to compensate for the weapon angle change), but aren't really survivable or dangerous enough to do well in stage two.

An alternative to escort package got proposed by someone recently. I don't know the details of it, but something like that could help.

[happycrow]

I still think balancing around the endgame is a mistake. If the players has fifty quadrillion credits and they trash a fleet... go get another one! 

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

The Sunder has 500 base dissipation. If you stick to weapons like HIl (400 flux/sec) and graviton beams/IR autolances (respectively 75 flux/sec or 150 (30) flux/sec), it doesn't need much vents. And any officer with EWM and Ordnance Expertise will allow it to almost not needing to invest OP into vents at all.

Exactly this. Even a 700 range version like Autopulse/2x Phase Lance adds up to "only" 600 flux/sec, which is perfectly manageable.

I still think balancing around the endgame is a mistake. If the players has fifty quadrillion credits and they trash a fleet... go get another one! 

Even if we ignore all the logistical issues with losing a fleet(getting all the new ships, and weapons for them, and S-mods again, and Ludd forbid new officers if composition changed) the simple fact remains that trashing a fleet = failure = not enjoyable.

[kaoseth]

There is only one viable Hammerhead build. That is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Everything else is redundant or too risky.

I think that build is subpar for end game use.  Trying to have a hammerhead fill a suppression roll like that does the ship a disservice. 

Double HAC, ITU + Escort package seems to be far more suited for use in end game fleets.  Escorting a cap ship, it gives a strong burst kenetic that the Cap can then capitalize on.  The main problem is, and has always been, hammer heads are a bit squishy.  So why not bring a Sunder instead?  Or get a Medusa/Manticore and not really worry about survivability.  The Enforcer has the same issue. It's not survivable enough for end game fleets. 

[Princess of Evil]

The main problem is, and has always been, hammer heads are a bit squishy.  So why not bring a Sunder instead?  Or get a Medusa/Manticore and not really worry about survivability.  The Enforcer has the same issue. It's not survivable enough for end game fleets. 

So you're saying to cut out ships that can't survive... and replace them with the least defensive destroyer?
Sunder is a massive cheap beatstick, it's not a survival-based escort.

[Wyvern]

The Sunder has 500 base dissipation. If you stick to weapons like HIl (400 flux/sec) and graviton beams/IR autolances (respectively 75 flux/sec or 150 (30) flux/sec), it doesn't need much vents. And any officer with EWM and Ordnance Expertise will allow it to almost not needing to invest OP into vents at all.

Exactly this. Even a 700 range version like Autopulse/2x Phase Lance adds up to "only" 600 flux/sec, which is perfectly manageable.

...That's like saying "Oh, you don't need flux vents on a Hammerhead because it's got 250 base dissipation and a pair of heavy maulers is only 240 flux/s". Yeah, if you cherry-pick the very cheapest-to-fire energy guns, and then ignore the ballistics and the Sunder's 200 flux/s shield upkeep, sure. And, okay, if your goal is extreme-range escort-package support, then all cheap beams is actually what you want, also sure. I'll buy that it's possible to make a Sunder build that doesn't need max vents.

I will not buy an absolute declaration of "The Sunder has room for max capacitors and the Hammerhead doesn't" when it very clearly depends on what sort of variant you're using. Like, you can take the default "balanced" Hammerhead, strip off Blast Doors and Expanded Missile Racks, and crank the ship up to 20/20 capacitors with 3OP left over.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

That's like saying "Oh, you don't need flux vents on a Hammerhead because it's got 250 base dissipation and a pair of heavy maulers is only 240 flux/s". Yeah, if you cherry-pick the very cheapest-to-fire energy guns, and then ignore the ballistics and the Sunder's 200 flux/s shield upkeep, sure.

So if we buffed Sunder dissipation to 800, and I gave an example of a Plasma Cannon Sunder with no vents, would you also call it a cherry-picked, cehapest-to-fire example? Just because the Vent number is 0? Again, it's bizarre how much you people try to make high flux dissipation a bad thing.

HIL/Gravitons Sunder build doesn't exist because it's cheap(because it's not, 550 flux is not even possible to reach for the likes of Enforcer, Manticore or Hammerhead) but because it works well - HIL against armor, Gravitons against shields and it's all beams so you get 200 extra range from Advanced Optics.

Meanwhile, your coutner-example of two Heavy Mauler Hammerhead is a cherry-picked, cheapest-to-fire build that no one uses because it's completely helpless against shields and Maulers don't exactly have impressive DPS in the first place. And it's not even possible to make it work because there are no small ballistics with 1000 range.

Like, you can take the default "balanced" Hammerhead, strip off Blast Doors and Expanded Missile Racks, and crank the ship up to 20/20 capacitors with 3OP left over.

The default "balanced" Hammerhead with two Heavy Mortars and two Railguns for combined flux use of 660? When flux dissipation on a Hammerhead maxes out at 450 with 20 vents? That's not even a real build, that's some relic of a bygone era.

[Princess of Evil]

Like, you can take the default "balanced" Hammerhead, strip off Blast Doors and Expanded Missile Racks, and crank the ship up to 20/20 capacitors with 3OP left over.

The default "balanced" Hammerhead with two Heavy Mortars and two Railguns for combined flux use of 660? When flux dissipation on a Hammerhead maxes out at 450 with 20 vents? That's not even a real build, that's some relic of a bygone era.

Mate, the default balanced HH is a bracket firing ship. You aren't supposed to hold down LMB with all weapons bound to it. And two railguns is fine enough anti-shield for a destroyer.

[Selfcontrol]

I still think balancing around the endgame is a mistake. If the players has fifty quadrillion credits and they trash a fleet... go get another one! 

You are missing the point : Sunders actually work and pull their weight during all stages. In fact, all destroyers pull their weight during all stages of the game except for the Hammerhead. Some destroyers need to be re-oriented towards escort duty once you reach lategame, but they do work and they bring to the table something the player might find desirable. I did an Escort Enforcer build for my one of my fleet and while it didn't have the crazy firepower of a Sunder or a Manticore, it was bringing lots of small missiles to counter flanking frigates and destroyers and fighters because it has so much OP it can afford Converted Hangar. I honestly liked it a lot.

Meanwhile, the Hammerhead is the only destroyer I have ever used where at some point during a playthgrough (late midgame) I tell myself "Time to ditch them and never look back". Not because they didn't fit my fleet, but because of their inherent capabilities.

[Princess of Evil]

Sunders do NOT pull their weight earlygame. Getting a large energy weapon is one thing (~~although against frigates 3 mediums is better~~), but they're also extremely allergic to more than one frigate. Just the existence of a cruiser to escort messes with frigate AI enough that they can deal with it, but as the biggest ship class in your fleet, Sunders just flop and die.

[FooF]

I still think balancing around the endgame is a mistake. If the players has fifty quadrillion credits and they trash a fleet... go get another one! 

You are missing the point : Sunders actually work and pull their weight during all stages. In fact, all destroyers pull their weight during all stages of the game except for the Hammerhead. Some destroyers need to be re-oriented towards escort duty once you reach lategame, but they do work and they bring to the table something the player might find desirable. I did an Escort Enforcer build for my one of my fleet and while it didn't have the crazy firepower of a Sunder or a Manticore, it was bringing lots of small missiles to counter flanking frigates and destroyers and fighters because it has so much OP it can afford Converted Hangar. I honestly liked it a lot.

Meanwhile, the Hammerhead is the only destroyer I have ever used where at some point during a playthgrough (late midgame) I tell myself "Time to ditch them and never look back". Not because they didn't fit my fleet, but because of their inherent capabilities.

I don't know if I'd go that far. The Shrike definitely falls off hard and Drovers and Talons aren't exactly great at the end game either. I also don't think every ship needs to have an end game niche. If the Hammerhead is good-not-great for most of the game, that's fine. Some ships really aren't cut out for min-maxed triple Ordo hunting.

I've never understood why the Hammerhead doesn't have much better flux stats than Low Tech, being Midline and all. Why isn't its base dissipation 300 relative to the 400 of the Medusa and 200/250 of Low Tech ships? Even the Shrike has 350. The Sunder is the extreme end at 500 but it's also made of wet tissue. It doesn't solve the core issue of an Assault Destroyer being suboptimal at endgame but while it does have a brief time to shine, that could help a little.

[Selfcontrol]

I have to say I completely forgot the Shrike