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[Thaago]

Nope. For smaller ships, range and maneuverability are the primary dictators of survivability in end game fleets.  Sunder survivability is better than a hammerhead in most situations do to having significantly higher range.  Sunders don't escort capital ships.  Capital ships escort Sunders.  BTW, this is also why Manticores are considered viable in end game fleets while Enforcers aren't.  Manticores have 900/1200 range base due to the large ballistic mount.

Ignoring the "viable Manticores" comment, Enforcers can have 1000 range with HVD/Maulers. So if all you care about is range, Enforcers should be better than Manticores, not the other way around.

Back when Escort Package first released, I tried Sunders with Autopulses(so 700 range) and they did... okay, not as good as beams, but the problem was Autopulse itself and not survivability.

HVD/Maulers have terrible flux efficiency, and the Enforcer is a low flux ship.  Multiply that together for not much.   

Also, if you're comparing 1000 range class ballistic mediums, then compare it to the ballistic large 1200 range gauss, not the large's 900 range high dps.   

There's also the issue where the AI will use the burn drive to get well solidly in range to cover for it's low top speed. 

 

Wait, you're talking about vanilla Manticores as viable? I thought you meant LP.

There's several examples of viable Manticores.  Look at the stuff MisterG and BigBrainEnergy youtube channels have put out on lowtech.  (gauss or railgun/heph or LAC/Hellbore)

Maulers are very flux efficient! Only 1.0 on the tin, but very good armor penetration and high accuracy makes up for it. They are low DPS per mount and DPS/OP spent, so they are really only good on ships with excess medium mounts/excess OP/no other options for anti-armor.

HVD are not particularly efficient on paper, but because of their accuracy, in game testing has shown that their "real" efficiency and damage per battle is competitive with HACs. They have different strengths and weaknesses (HACs better in medium and shorter range, better in hardpoints, but just doesn't have 1000 range, HVD is usually better in turrets, has better hull damage, etc) and the balance between the two is a lot closer than it first appears. This is something I was wrong about in the past, where I'd underestimated HVDs.

In terms of flux: an Enforcer with 2x HVD, 2x Mauler, 1x Flak is comfortable in AI hands. Either the flux skill or the flux venting hullmod are a good idea, but not even really required. This gives it 350 kinetic and 240 HE DPS, with high penetration, at 1000 range (1200 with ITU, add more for skills if officering), so makes it a better artillery platform than the Hammerhead (which is just not a good HVD/Mauler ship). It spends a lot of its "spare" OP on those guns though, so can't afford too many luxury hullmods on top of high flux/cap stats.

The Manticore is better endgame because it can mount the Heph, which is twice as much DPS/OP and DPS/mount equivalent than the heavy mauler. Alongside 3 LACS (which are something like 50% better mount equivalent damage despite being low DPS, and 2.5 times better DPS/OP), it has 300 kinetic and 480 HE DPS at 900 range (and that kinetic can be increased with investment), and it spends less OP on those guns which makes up the deficit between the two hulls. The 2 medium missile mounts are much better than 4 smalls.

The Manticore's crappy PD in that configuration (I am not a fan of canister flak and that's all it gets in max gun mode), worse defenses, and limited arc on the main gun make it more vulnerable, but as others have pointed out and I agree, endgame destroyers are protected by their capitals and so that doesn't detract from its superior firepower. 1000 vs 900 range is, imo, not enough to make up for the gun DPS difference, but I can see others making a different call there. The missiles though... even though it is hard to get max investment on the missiles without sacrificing guns, medium missiles are just really good.

The Sunder has similar range as the Enforcer thanks to Advanced Optics and Ballistic Mastery competing, but System Mastery + High Energy Focus push its DPS way out in front. Gold standard artillery for a reason!

[Killer of Fate]

@Thaago

I'm using Hammerhead now in the early game, and I definitely... Well, I was probably wrong about Heavy Mortar + Railgun combo. It's good for the early game sustenance

But then... I might be spending too much time in the ultra late game, because as soon as you enter that cruiser level I recall the range being a huge issue. I am using Escort Package for the first time though. And to me it seems a bit ridiculous.

Like holy ***... That thing... Imma start using Shrikes with this. I wonder if it'll work in Fury + Shrike combos. I'll probably do that later, if I won't get frustrated about things



Jesus Christ, look at this
This is built-in Escort Package (edit: and ITU) with I assume the space station triggering it.
Is this balanced? Is this what balance means?
Okay, sure... I mean. I do not object. I wanted more strong things in the game. I guess we got it, from a certain point of view

Looks like Shrike is back on the menu

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TexjsIqoHo

[close]

now i understand why u want to put this on a Brawler

Wait wait wait wait

Does this mean... HSA Tachyon Lance Sunder can finally work? With this... Hmmmmmmm, interesting

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

HVD/Maulers have terrible flux efficiency, and the Enforcer is a low flux ship.  Multiply that together for not much.

Manticore's flux efficiency is terrible too. It's basically Manticore with Hellbore and two Light Autocannons vs. Enforcer with two Heavy Maulers and an HVD. Which one is worse? Hard to say.

Also, if you're comparing 1000 range class ballistic mediums, then compare it to the ballistic large 1200 range gauss, not the large's 900 range high dps.

Gauss Cannon is a strong candidate for the worst weapon in the game so the less said about it the better. Even if it wasn't, Manticore absolutely can't afford it anyway.

There's several examples of viable Manticores.  Look at the stuff MisterG and BigBrainEnergy youtube channels have put out on lowtech.  (gauss or railgun/heph or LAC/Hellbore)

Viable Manticores? 20 capacitors Manticore has even less shield EHP than the Sunder(which people keep calling "wet tissues", so what does that make the Manticore?) and you'll never put 20 capacitors on it because just like Hammerhead it has massive flux dissipation issues. The same flux issues force it in one of two builds, Hellbore/2x LAC that dies to frigates(which is hilarious) or singular HAG with no kinetic damage that's only good as a budget HIL/IRAL "finisher" Sunder. Except it's not actually budget because it has less tank, a lot less damage and is slower for more DP.

(Before someone starts talking about armor values again, I assure you that Tachyon Lances don't care about few hundred points of armor difference on a destroyer. And the Escort Package bonus only applies to shields)

----

Honestly, all this talk about destroyers convinced me that, if Sunder is not to be nerfed, every destroyer that isn't a Sunder should get +50flux/sec dissipation across the board.

[Thaago]

HVD/Maulers have terrible flux efficiency, and the Enforcer is a low flux ship.  Multiply that together for not much.

Manticore's flux efficiency is terrible too. It's basically Manticore with Hellbore and two Light Autocannons vs. Enforcer with two Heavy Maulers and an HVD. Which one is worse? Hard to say.

...

We've had this debate before: the ships have more than enough flux for WAY more guns than you think they do. Manticore with Heph + 3 LACs is a comfortable amount of flux for it. I and others have used Manticores as endgame fire support several times: they aren't as good as artillery as Sunders, but are second best and certainly crush ordos.

[kaoseth]

Gauss Cannon is a strong candidate for the worst weapon in the game so the less said about it the better. Even if it wasn't, Manticore absolutely can't afford it anyway.

It sounds to me like you don't understand the weapon.  It is foremost a suppression weapon, and secondarily an attrition weapon. 

Higher range means slower targets can never get into range (in duel situations). 
Higher range means targets that get trouble retreat further to vent or risk taking chip damage. Gauss chip damage is scary.
Higher range means attacking targets have higher hard flux before they get the chance to fire. 
Higher range allows more and larger overlapping fields of fire.  A single gauss gun is meh.  4-8 creates a zone where many ships trying to cross get scared off before they fire, others get scared off before they can put one of your ships in danger, while the rest of the ships coming through get focused by your other ships.   

One more very often overlooked thing, the very high kinetic damage per hit means that the target is denied it's last ~1400 of shield flux or be overloaded from the hit.  In getting shields to drop, that's effectively better than the 3% shield damage bonus of gravitons. 

Manticore affords Gauss just fine.  Just don't field other non-pd ballistics on it.  When shields are inactive it's only 70 flux/s off parity when equipped with 20 vents and S-mod distributor, and hits parity if you pick up the Flux Regulation player skill and spend more on vents. 

Viable Manticores? 20 capacitors Manticore has even less shield EHP than the Sunder(which people keep calling "wet tissues", so what does that make the Manticore?) and you'll never put 20 capacitors on it because just like Hammerhead it has massive flux dissipation issues. The same flux issues force it in one of two builds, Hellbore/2x LAC that dies to frigates(which is hilarious) or singular HAG with no kinetic damage that's only good as a budget HIL/IRAL "finisher" Sunder. Except it's not actually budget because it has less tank, a lot less damage and is slower for more DP.

(Before someone starts talking about armor values again, I assure you that Tachyon Lances don't care about few hundred points of armor difference on a destroyer. And the Escort Package bonus only applies to shields)

I'm going to say "armor" because it does matters. You're not facing a fleet of Tachyon Lances.  No destroyer can weather focus fire by larger ships.  I call a Sunder a wet tissue because 2 light interceptor wings can rough it up, where manticore armor asks "what's this itching sensation?".   And even 360 shields occasionally lets hits through when the shield is down or facing the wrong direction in the brief moments while coming up.   

Hellbore/LAC build is not a punch down build.  I don't expect it to duel frigates well.  It's a tag team with others to punch up build.  It maximizes damage at a cost of accuracy. 

Honestly, all this talk about destroyers convinced me that, if Sunder is not to be nerfed, every destroyer that isn't a Sunder should get +50flux/sec dissipation across the board.

Maybe?  Medusa is very solidly worth it's DP just the way it is.  A blanket flux bonus is a bit non-creative.  I really like my idea of giving the Hammerhead reduced cost ECM, ECCM, Nav, and Sensors.  A destroyer that can specialize in E-war tickles the brain, and it's something a Midline design would do.  The current Hammerhead does need incentive to exist in end game fleets. 

I don't see Sunder getting nerfed as its armor/hull is paper mache and has a slow turning speed.  Anything getting through your lines has a fair chance to take it out.   It's just how a siege weapon should be like. 

[mr. domain]

@Thaago

I'm using Hammerhead now in the early game, and I definitely... Well, I was probably wrong about Heavy Mortar + Railgun combo. It's good for the early game sustenance

But then... I might be spending too much time in the ultra late game, because as soon as you enter that cruiser level I recall the range being a huge issue. I am using Escort Package for the first time though. And to me it seems a bit ridiculous.

Like holy ***... That thing... Imma start using Shrikes with this. I wonder if it'll work in Fury + Shrike combos. I'll probably do that later, if I won't get frustrated about things



Jesus Christ, look at this
This is built-in Escort Package (edit: and ITU) with I assume the space station triggering it.
Is this balanced? Is this what balance means?
Okay, sure... I mean. I do not object. I wanted more strong things in the game. I guess we got it, from a certain point of view

Looks like Shrike is back on the menu

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TexjsIqoHo

[close]

now i understand why u want to put this on a Brawler

Wait wait wait wait

Does this mean... HSA Tachyon Lance Sunder can finally work? With this... Hmmmmmmm, interesting

With escort package, that condition of being within 1000 su of a larger ship can be a hefty downside sometimes, for instance its very difficult to use medusa to its full potential with escort package.

I can definitely see the shrike as an efficient escort with EP s-modded. I'll test that out in my next playthrough.

[Thaago]

Do stations give capital bonuses for escort? I assumed they would, but I admit I've never tested. Let's see, if so the Shrike should have +60% range (capital grade) to give the ion canon 800 range, the heavy blaster 960... oh, gunnery could give 15% for 875/1050. Another 20% better shield efficiency too, and Shrikes have pretty decent shield hp in the first case (at least for their weight class as light destroyers). And 20% speed. Nice.

Your plan to use Fury to trigger Shrike should be fine, though the bonuses will be half as large (I mean I think, if stations give capital bonuses). I used a Falcon as the same to trigger some Sunders without losing burn speed.