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[happycrow]

If we're going to poach a skill from Yellow and put a skill into Green, but folks are already declaring Yellow underwhelming, what does Yellow get for compensation then?

Sincerely, A Logistics Enjoyer.

[Megas]

More combat power so that Yellow has the option for combat stuff instead of mostly campaign stuff no matter what you take.  I like Industry because I like both tier 2 combat skills (I like OE for more flux and PA for faster venting).  Also, restore Ordnance Expertise to its former glory (or least add the missing 0.5 to dissipation at elite so that human officers do not get it so easily).  It is not the player's fault officers do not follow the same rules to get it so cheap and may be overpowered on them, while player pays two points for one combat skill in Industry.

IP for the player could be replaced if he got it for free or earned it as a special quest reward.  IP could stay if it had a better player-only bonus that is useful all game or if demoted to tier 1 so it can be a prereq for the useful tier 2 skills.  Currently, all of the tier 3 skills are dead weight at endgame when logistics is no longer a concern (and alpha core farming gives all the IP and colonies the player wants).  The tier 3 skills could have a combat benefit attached to them.  Containment Procedures could buff ships' mobility systems in combat (like add more speed like Helmsmanship or faster system recharge like Systems Exp.).  Makeshift Supplies could repair ships faster in combat like Damage Control.  Industrial Planning could reduce DP of ships by 1 or 5%, or add +5 to maximum ship limit (from 30 to 35).

P.S.  Maybe IP could have this meta-power to replace +50% to production.  Raise DP pool limits on skills that have them by 25%, so that Crew Training, Flux Modulations, and Field Repairs have 300 DP limit instead of 240, Phase Coil Tuning has 50 DP instead of 40 DP, and Automated Ships has 150 DP instead of 120 DP.  Also, Carrier Group can use 10 fighters at full bonus instead of 8.  Reducing DP ala Support Doctrine, but not as much has a similar effect of boosting max DP for skills.

[TheLaughingDead]

@happycrow As Megas said, pretty much replace Industrial Planning with the newer better skill. Industry becomes better, hurray!

[Megas]

@happycrow As Megas said, pretty much replace Industrial Planning with the newer better skill. Industry becomes better, hurray!

Although if IP is the only skill replaced, then the replacement skill has to be generalist and not specialist that affects only a small group of ships or else those who do not use those ships are no better off than before.  Two skills need to be replaced to make room for a specialist skill like a carrier skill.

[TheLaughingDead]

@happycrow As Megas said, pretty much replace Industrial Planning with the newer better skill. Industry becomes better, hurray!

Although if IP is the only skill replaced, then the replacement skill has to be generalist and not specialist that affects only a small group of ships or else those who do not use those ships are no better off than before.  Two skills need to be replaced to make room for a specialist skill like a carrier skill.

I see what you are saying, but Polarized Armour is pretty specialized other than its elite effect (which does nothing for the AI) and Ordinance Expertise is already the generalist. My thinking about adding a personal ship skill for fighters was that it buffs fighters (like the fighter skills already present) without being quite so easily spammable. You wouldn't have to take the skill if you didn't pilot a ship with fighters, just like you don't take Ballistic Mastery if you don't pilot a ship with ballistics.
If you want to buff Industry's effects in combat in general rather than specifically buff fighters then I can sympathize with the thought, but it isn't very relevant to OP's topic unless you have a suggestion for how Industry would change to buff fighters.

[Megas]

I see what you are saying, but Polarized Armour is pretty specialized other than its elite effect (which does nothing for the AI) and Ordinance Expertise is already the generalist. My thinking about adding a personal ship skill for fighters was that it buffs fighters (like the fighter skills already present) without being quite so easily spammable. You wouldn't have to take the skill if you didn't pilot a ship with fighters, just like you don't take Ballistic Mastery if you don't pilot a ship with ballistics.
If you want to buff Industry's effects in combat in general rather than specifically buff fighters then I can sympathize with the thought, but it isn't very relevant to OP's topic unless you have a suggestion for how Industry would change to buff fighters.

Sure, but if you want a capstone in Industry, then that fighter skill is useless to you if your fleet does not have a carrier in it, and the status quo of lack of combat power remains for the player dissatisfied with Industry.

With Combat, there are alternatives depending on want the player wants.  With Industry, Ordnance Expertise and Polarized Armor are it before capstones, and Hull Restoration itself is underwhelming as a capstone in terms of combat power (and its campaign power can be replicated by high enough income at endgame, possibly enabled by alpha cores).

AI does not need to worry about prereqs or capstones, you just take it for them.  Player is the one who has to worry about tiers and prereqs with his 15 skill points, and player is the one who can easily get elite on any skill and vent spam with Polarized Armor kind of like in older releases.

But a fighter skill in another tree would be nice.  Probably combat skills in general should transfer some bonus to do this, not just Point Defense.

P.S.  One more thing.  Industrial Planning does not need to be removed for a fighter buff.  Replace the player-only production buff with whatever combat buff (so that the player has a reason to take IP instead of farming more alpha cores for that job).  It was a reason why I suggested lower DP on ships (even if not as much as the other two skills that do this) because that might buff fighters too (by making carriers cheaper and maybe put an additional carrier's fighters in battle).

Of course, alpha cores can just not have IP (or really go rogue and steal your colony) and then player may want IP simply for the +1 to commodities only, although that would not be ideal (player gives up combat power for IP to be on par with commodity production.)

[Wyvern]

Thematically, I'd think the correct choice here would be to take the existing Carrier Group skill effect, add all of its effects to Industrial Planning - so that the skill helps you build things including fighters - and then replace Carrier Group's effect with a boost to fighter damage & durability.

[happycrow]

I think that trying to balance around the end game is a mistake. If you balance around the end game and most of yellow is built around logistics, that's basically just saying that yellow shouldn't exist. I don't think that's a viable way of approaching this. If you wanted a carrier skill for yellow and the question would be in my mind, what can you add in yellow? That gives carriers the sort of soft bonus to resilience that the other yellow skills give? Everything I can think of fits much better under Green or else isn't carrier-specific, but I'll brain it.

[Megas]

It is not so much balancing for endgame as it is that campaign skills are just not useful at endgame (or less useful than combat buffs needed to defeat superior opponents late) when player has more resources than he needs and plenty to spare.  Industry has too many campaign skills (six with no direct help for combat) and/or not enough combat stuff.  The other three trees do not have this problem.  The logistic skills ought to be like Leadership's Tactical Drills, which is part combat (+5% damage) and part campaign skill (more raiding).  Hull Restoration as it is would be a great tier 3 skill (assuming +15% CR to the fleet is worth tier 1 like Crew Training), but it lacks oomph as a capstone.

Industrial Planning and the rest of tier 3 Industry ought to be like Tactical Drills, part-combat/part-campaign.

[happycrow]

Okay . I'm not much seeing it but I'm not a big endgame player -- once I've hunted Ordos I usually restart.

IP:  (as stated)
Ship:  if a system or skill's effect is limited by bays: +2 bays
If a skill's effects are limited by DP, +20DP.

[mr. domain]

Thematically, I'd think the correct choice here would be to take the existing Carrier Group skill effect, add all of its effects to Industrial Planning - so that the skill helps you build things including fighters - and then replace Carrier Group's effect with a boost to fighter damage & durability.

Honestly this feels right. Keeping the Industrial Planning bonus to planetary industry and giving it that softcapped fighter replacement rate bonus would make it into a really cool and thematic skill with mixed campaign and combat application. The key here then would be to make Carrier Group's new bonus balanced yet effective.

[Megas]

Turns out I overlooked the half crew casualties in Containment Procedures, which is a combat buff in a way (like Blast Doors) for fleets that plan to die then self-resurrect, which seems to favor the Derelict Ops. build.  If I do not want to care about casualties at all, I would pick Derelict Ops and not care who dies, and I would need reserves to absorb losses.  Hull Restoration is not good at ignoring casualties, not when it encourages picking up fallen enemy ships and fixing them (and fixing many enemy ships with HR takes forever, so I still do not want my own ships to die).  I guess Containment Procedures is okay, just more appropriate for fighter spam or zombie junker theme fleet and not for the typical fleet.  Easier e-burn is nice, but not enough to be worth a skill point, but if player plans to die-and-resurrect, he needs extra crew, and Containment Procedures might be helpful enough for that.

As for Carrier Group for Industrial Planning, that can go either there or Makeshift Supplies instead.  Makeshift Supplies looks like the "fix things with duct tape" or MacGuyver-ing skill.  Makeshift Supplies is another skill that seems underwhelming for its tier, just less supply loss.  Surveying boosts looks like a early/mid-game thing.