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[Wyvern]

So, there are a number of fighters where what you see is what you get: most bombers, most shielded fighters, that sort of thing.

...And then there are several fighters that are flux-limited in ways that aren't immediately apparent; most notably, the Broadsword and Gladius, whose weaponry is dramatically limited by the fighter's anemic flux dissipation.

A player looking at the listed stats for the Broadsword would expect it to put out ~300 kinetic DPS. In practice, it will do that for about two seconds, and then be capped out on flux and manage a sustained DPS of ~75.

I suggest that, instead of relying on opaque flux-based limitations, these fighters should instead mount unique ammo-based variants on their weapons. For example, a Broadsword mounting a pair of "LMG (Fighter)" with an ammo capacity of 10 and a suitable recharge rate would achieve roughly the same effect, but in a way that doesn't require the player to go digging through CSV files to find that "Oh, this fighter has a flux capacity of 80 and a dissipation of 10, and that's why its firepower is a quarter of what the UI claims it should be."

Now, this does get a little bit more complicated for the Gladius, where its current use of flux mechanics and mixed weapon types mean you can't quite get the same results from ammunition limitations as you can from flux... On the other hand, you can get fairly close, and I doubt anyone would complain if the Gladius ended up with a small buff out of this sort of change.

[Selfcontrol]

Agreed. This would also immensely help new players for estimating what they can expect from each fighter wing.

The "no_weapon_flux" unique hullmod that some fighters have is never explained anywhere and it doesn't show anywhere in the fighter wing card. For example, lots of folks on Reddit are genuinely surprised that it exists each time someone mentions it (which is not very often).

[Killer of Fate]

...And then there are several fighters that are flux-limited in ways that aren't immediately apparent; most notably, the Broadsword and Gladius, whose weaponry is dramatically limited by the fighter's anemic flux dissipation.

*cough* Warthog *cough* *cough*

[IceFire]

So, there are a number of fighters where what you see is what you get: most bombers, most shielded fighters, that sort of thing.

...And then there are several fighters that are flux-limited in ways that aren't immediately apparent; most notably, the Broadsword and Gladius, whose weaponry is dramatically limited by the fighter's anemic flux dissipation.

A player looking at the listed stats for the Broadsword would expect it to put out ~300 kinetic DPS. In practice, it will do that for about two seconds, and then be capped out on flux and manage a sustained DPS of ~75.

I suggest that, instead of relying on opaque flux-based limitations, these fighters should instead mount unique ammo-based variants on their weapons. For example, a Broadsword mounting a pair of "LMG (Fighter)" with an ammo capacity of 10 and a suitable recharge rate would achieve roughly the same effect, but in a way that doesn't require the player to go digging through CSV files to find that "Oh, this fighter has a flux capacity of 80 and a dissipation of 10, and that's why its firepower is a quarter of what the UI claims it should be."

Now, this does get a little bit more complicated for the Gladius, where its current use of flux mechanics and mixed weapon types mean you can't quite get the same results from ammunition limitations as you can from flux... On the other hand, you can get fairly close, and I doubt anyone would complain if the Gladius ended up with a small buff out of this sort of change.

To be honest befor the way most unshielded fighters work gets reworked i would prefer just implementing a way to better explain the functinality of strike craft in the game maybe an entire new mission in the tutorial section and a way to see who has the nofluxhullmod ingame. If we go back to ammo for the fighter we should do it for the whole game. I bought the game when that functionality was long gone.

[Wyvern]

If we go back to ammo for the fighter we should do it for the whole game. I bought the game when that functionality was long gone.

Did you miss the part where ammunition regeneration would allow the fighters in question to keep their current sustained DPS? The intent here isn't to meaningfully change fighters, it's to make it so that, when you look at their weaponry, you can actually see what you're getting.

(Admittedly, this could also be achieved by making the fighter UI show the full flux stats, plus the no flux from weapons hullmod if present. But personally, that feels like a step backwards compared to just making the weapon cards show what you're going to get out of them.)

[Thaago]

Yeah, ammo + regeneration would do functionally the same thing as current flux, only be clearer on the stat card. It would also allow for fighters with mixed armaments, such as the Gladius and Thunder, to individually tweak the offense of each weapon.

+1 from me!

[Killer of Fate]

this feels like a ridiculously complex solution

having new versions of already existing weapons only for the sake of creating a more cohesive tooltip feels like a roundabout pseudo solution rather than an actual solution

a new player will open these weapons... See they have weird DPS stats. Shrug. And then nothing will happen. Or alternatively open the fighter stats first. And then assume all LMGs have weird stats.

And sure, you can add (HIGH DELAY) to this... But... Why?
It works the way it does now

Instead of this just update the in-game tips.

There is a tip that says "watch out when shooting torpedoes up close. cause they might damage you". Like something like that... Like... Huh!? When was this the case?

Add a tip that says "fighters without a shield have limited flux stats causing their weapons to behave differently to normal weapons. Giving them limited DPS. Be aware of that". Then you solve this problem in like 30 seconds. Instead of spending 10 minutes copying and pasting various weapons. Creating alternative ones. And then creating clutter within the game's files.

And even if you add HIGH DELAY. Then it will still be kinda confusing new players. I mean HIGH DELAY Burst PD was so confusing that I think some veteran players haven't figured out that Burst PD actually does less damage in its HIGH DELAY version per second until they were specifically told about it this update

And you want to add... HIGH DELAY lmg? A seperate version of lmg for Broadsword and Gladius. Cause these things have 2 seperate flux stats btw. Or are you going to keep the current LMG for Gladius. And then have it restrained by the current system?

And if you have 2 versions of HIGH DELAY for Gladius and Broadsword, then what would you call them? Higher Delay?

[Wyvern]

Add a tip that says "fighters without a shield have limited flux stats causing their weapons to behave differently to normal weapons. Giving them limited DPS. Be aware of that". Then you solve this problem in like 30 seconds.

Except that this doesn't, in any way, solve the problem, because it doesn't tell you which fighters, or by how much. It'd be like have a tooltip saying "Oh by the way, some ships have hidden built-in modifiers to their damage output." Which ships? How much? Are you really expected to manually test every single ship? No, that would be ridiculous.

And you want to add... HIGH DELAY lmg? A seperate version of lmg for Broadsword and Gladius. Cause these things have 2 seperate flux stats btw. Or are you going to keep the current LMG for Gladius. And then have it restrained by the current system?

And if you have 2 versions of HIGH DELAY for Gladius and Broadsword, then what would you call them? Higher Delay?

Honestly, the Gladius can just keep the regular LMG. It's got enough flux dissipation that those aren't limited. And if you did need multiple fighter-specific versions, then it'd be easy enough to tag them as "LMG (Gladius)" or "LMG (Broadsword)".

[Killer of Fate]

Add a tip that says "fighters without a shield have limited flux stats causing their weapons to behave differently to normal weapons. Giving them limited DPS. Be aware of that". Then you solve this problem in like 30 seconds.

Except that this doesn't, in any way, solve the problem, because it doesn't tell you which fighters, or by how much. It'd be like have a tooltip saying "Oh by the way, some ships have hidden built-in modifiers to their damage output." Which ships? How much? Are you really expected to manually test every single ship? No, that would be ridiculous.

you can see...

Unlike Target Analysis, Missile Specialisation, Electronic Warfare, Field Modulation, Flux Regulation, Coordinated Maneuvers, Systems Expertise you can specifically observe the ship running out of flux in combat. If you just look at it for 5 seconds

It's not an invisible stat. It's not a complicated stat. It's a basic behaviour thingy. The same way how you would expect equipping a Mjolnir on a Mudskipper MKII doesn't give it 600 DPS

[Wyvern]

Add a tip that says "fighters without a shield have limited flux stats causing their weapons to behave differently to normal weapons. Giving them limited DPS. Be aware of that". Then you solve this problem in like 30 seconds.

Except that this doesn't, in any way, solve the problem, because it doesn't tell you which fighters, or by how much. It'd be like have a tooltip saying "Oh by the way, some ships have hidden built-in modifiers to their damage output." Which ships? How much? Are you really expected to manually test every single ship? No, that would be ridiculous.

you can see...

Unlike Target Analysis, Missile Specialisation, Electronic Warfare, Field Modulation, Flux Regulation, Coordinated Maneuvers, Systems Expertise you can specifically observe the ship running out of flux in combat. If you just look at it for 5 seconds

So we're back to "you have to manually test every single fighter LPC to find out if it works as advertised or not", which is, in fact, the problem.

It's not an invisible stat.

It literally is an invisible stat, because it doesn't show on the fighter LPC's tooltip with the rest of the fighter's stats.
Edit: That you can see the flux levels during combat is... good as far as it goes. But it doesn't go very far at all, and does not help one bit with questions like "Do I want to buy this LPC?". Testing in the simulator should not be where you find out that, surprise, a fighter's actual damage output is one quarter of what its LPC claimed it was.

[Draba]

Would be nice to have more information about the fighters on the refit screen, displaying the relevant stats looks simpler but this one could also be fine.

Unlike Target Analysis, Missile Specialisation, Electronic Warfare, Field Modulation, Flux Regulation, Coordinated Maneuvers, Systems Expertise you can specifically observe the ship running out of flux in combat. If you just look at it for 5 seconds

It's not an invisible stat. It's not a complicated stat. It's a basic behaviour thingy. The same way how you would expect equipping a Mjolnir on a Mudskipper MKII doesn't give it 600 DPS

I think you didn't understand the reason for this suggestion.
Those skills have tooltips that tell you exactly what they do (EW is the only one that could use a bit of extra).
The Mudskipper MKII displays its exact flux stats in game so it's clear it can't run a Mjolnir at full output.

Broadsword wings only show their exact flux stats in the codex, and Claws don't have their hullmod listed anywhere in game.

[Wyvern]

Broadsword wings only show their exact flux stats in the codex, and Claws don't have their hullmod listed anywhere in game.

Huh, really? I did not know that you could still get at the flux dissipation listings for fighters via the codex.

...Of course, the codex then lacks access to the stats for the fighter's weapons, or - as you mention - any display for the no-weapon-flux hullmod. And having to manually double-check codex entries against fighter stats is still rather more of a hassle than this ought to be. And it won't necessarily work for mod-added fighter LPCs that might be hidden in the codex for whatever reason.

[Killer of Fate]

Add a tip that says "fighters without a shield have limited flux stats causing their weapons to behave differently to normal weapons. Giving them limited DPS. Be aware of that". Then you solve this problem in like 30 seconds.

Except that this doesn't, in any way, solve the problem, because it doesn't tell you which fighters, or by how much. It'd be like have a tooltip saying "Oh by the way, some ships have hidden built-in modifiers to their damage output." Which ships? How much? Are you really expected to manually test every single ship? No, that would be ridiculous.

you can see...

Unlike Target Analysis, Missile Specialisation, Electronic Warfare, Field Modulation, Flux Regulation, Coordinated Maneuvers, Systems Expertise you can specifically observe the ship running out of flux in combat. If you just look at it for 5 seconds

So we're back to "you have to manually test every single fighter LPC to find out if it works as advertised or not", which is, in fact, the problem.

It's not an invisible stat.

It literally is an invisible stat, because it doesn't show on the fighter LPC's tooltip with the rest of the fighter's stats.
Edit: That you can see the flux levels during combat is... good as far as it goes. But it doesn't go very far at all, and does not help one bit with questions like "Do I want to buy this LPC?". Testing in the simulator should not be where you find out that, surprise, a fighter's actual damage output is one quarter of what its LPC claimed it was.

having stuff written in one of the few dozen things in the game isn't exactly an organic introduction to mechanics. The LMG flux venting and capacity is extremely straightforward. Where as Systems Expertise being necessary for most systems to properly function (something you wouldn't be exactly aware of. Considering you don't even know what the cooldowns are for systems. Unless you look at the ship's files. They might be in the codex entries. I guess) isn't

It's just that complexifying the LMG for the sake of making it more readable is also very odd. Cause then what next? Will the player now have to be informed of the fact that fighters will also very often miss?

If we can't count on players physically seeing projectiles being fired. And seeing that they are in fact not fired as extensively as they could be. Then we might as well give up on the player understanding what is going on in this game.

Because as I said. It's an extremely minor easy to understand thing. Now explain to them the fact that most capitals are meant to operate with Elite Helsmanship and Elite Impact Mitigation. Lest they are bad. Explain to the player the fact that most ships aren't designed to work properly without stuff like Phase Coil Tuning, s-modding or proper officers. Where's the data on that? Nowhere to be found. Even though this is far more complex than the fact that LMG doesn't fire 24/7

It just feels like tackling the issues in backwards order. There's a giant volcano in the background spewing ash. And our first priority is to attack the random gnome who has been stealing our laundry in the backyard

[Thogapotomus]

I agree that this needs attention. I didn't even realize any of this was an issue until I had a lot of time in the game and I still had to find out from sources outside of the game.

Could the main tooltip card not just have the fighters' capacity, dissipation and weapon flux stats listed there? You wouldn't have to go to the individual weapon cards unless you wanted damage info.

Just like the ship refit screen you would immediately be able to see the fighters' capacity, dissipation and weapon flux and could quickly understand it's damage output.  You wouldn't even need to see the no weapon flux hullmod either, though it might warrant some explanation as to why there's a zero for weapon flux.

[Killer of Fate]

I agree that this needs attention. I didn't even realize any of this was an issue until I had a lot of time in the game and I still had to find out from sources outside of the game.

Could the main tooltip card not just have the fighters' capacity, dissipation and weapon flux stats listed there? You wouldn't have to go to the individual weapon cards unless you wanted damage info.

Just like the ship refit screen you would immediately be able to see the fighters' capacity, dissipation and weapon flux and could quickly understand it's damage output.  You wouldn't even need to see the no weapon flux hullmod either, though it might warrant some explanation as to why there's a zero for weapon flux.

Hmmmmmm, I see...

Well, I guess I'm wrong about  this

Never mind @Wyvern. It might be a good idea to do this. Though I would perhaps choose this proposed option over creating additional LMG copies. Cause in general I don't like seeing fighters using different weapons than standard ships. Because it's... Never mind