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[kosmo]

Great mod, can I get the source code for it?
I'm curious how u implement the event menu.

btw I cheese all the frigates and ziggys with a hardflux dissipation paragon, activate fortress shield and tank it all until all enemy ships run out of CR.

[Deathawaits4]

Hei hei, the liminal plates are imho very useless in a vanilla + somewhat modded playthrough. A 138 base cost liminal plating giving 15% speed increases built on 10 ships has an upkeep of around 80.000 credits, 11 ships already soars past the 100k mark and at 15 it is basically impossible to finance at all.

With the current slider it is very difficult to balance out, because even at low values, the exponential curve explodes and you need an income of millions/month to have a somewhat okayish template that you can throw onto a few ships. But here is the problem - it is still not worth it, because they have insane OP costs and can't be built in. I can't find any reason to use them atm because normal hull mods are just better without all the downsides, especially the ones added by mods.

One suggestion i would like to make:

A setting we could activate in the menu for a fixed cost (like: base_cost * 5 for friggates, 10* for destroyers - this would have far higher initial costs, but would drastically reduce the explosion later)
And an option that allows us to build in a single template - if one is built in we can't install a second one at all.

I believe this could make the mod usefull in a non extremely modded inflated income. I beat the boss on standard without any liminal mods because it was just impossible to finance them to a level i would benefit from it.

[Mazrim]

That is the intention is that you use them to specialize a few ships, and only focus that one category.

Like I have my "Shieldshunt Ballistics" setup for Oldslaught that gives it the regen, a shitload of armor and manueverability, and discount on guns. No missiles, no energy, bumped supply costs, etc.

But its only going on the Oldslaught. Maybe a Pandemonium if I feel Funny.

Its designed to be customizable, not "I rig up all of my ships with insane modifiers."

[Deathawaits4]

That is the intention is that you use them to specialize a few ships, and only focus that one category.

Like I have my "Shieldshunt Ballistics" setup for Oldslaught that gives it the regen, a shitload of armor and manueverability, and discount on guns. No missiles, no energy, bumped supply costs, etc.

But its only going on the Oldslaught. Maybe a Pandemonium if I feel Funny.

Its designed to be customizable, not "I rig up all of my ships with insane modifiers."

The problem is, that i can get simmilar results cheaper. The only real worthwhile modifier is the regen, otherwise everything else is really not that great. For example there are mods that give very strong hullmods buffing rockets, giving them dmg vs shields which is a lot better than a flat dmg increase on rockets. The exponential curve makes it impossible to balance a use vs tradeoff. If you put it too low, you can outfit too many ships with minimal costs before it blows up, a bit too much and you can outfit barely anything. In a modded playthrough, even a fully upgraded liminal hullmod doesn't feel OP at all, it barely feels OP in vanilla, but when using mods like ship mastery, it falls off drastically because most mastery systems improve vanilla hullmods aswell without any additional cost. I really really like the system/ui and customisability, but it is so extremely punishing and balancing it via the sliders is nearly impossible.

Having an option for a flat (very costly) price of the hullmods, would still drastically limit the early game, while allowing a stronger control in the late game. We're still speaking 500-1000k in credits per capital and since also AI fleets profit from liminality and ship mastery, this mod makes AI battles so much harder, especially when they have SMS regen + liminal healing, its like 5-10% hp regen/s on some ai fleets.

I understand if you don't want to add this feature, it is just my two cents, the mod is still extremely well made

[Mazrim]

My guy, you're stacking mods and expecting them to be balanced together. 

SMS is a huge balance change for starters. You can get some real degenerate perk setups like the Paragon I got down to 0.02 Flux.

[Mamick]

FWIW, Mazrim is absolutely correct that this is not meant to go on your entire fleet. That is the core design of the entire mod. Given that you say that you want to put them on all your ships, it seems also contradictory to say that it's too weak. Just put them on only some of your ships in that case, and it'll make those ships stronger.

The other part of this mod is that you need to figure things out to make it overpowered, it won't be given to you. Especially if you don't figure out how to customize effectively, it's going to be much weaker than other modded content. To be explicit, some broken combinations are:

(Warning, looking at these ruins a lot of the fun of the mod IMO)

Spoiler

• Hull and armor regen is inherently broken. There's very few mods that give armor regen (hull is common). People have excluded this mod for being overpowered for that alone
• The reduce Instruction upkeep Instruction can fairly easily make your loadouts free or almost free
• This can make logistic ships carry a lot more stuff and provide a lot of utility. After regen, this is the most powerful part of the mod, when combined with reduced upkeep to make these loadouts free. Logistic ships often have extra OP anyway
• The reduced weapon OP cost when upgraded can on some ships make the OP cost of the template negative. This is also fun when combined with reduced upkeep
• Adding hanger bays to any ship is also extremely powerful. Especially phase ships. Especially frigates. There's a reason why phase carriers aren't a thing, and a reason why frigates carriers are rare. When combined with reduced fighter damage, this is hilarious
• Armor has increasing marginal returns, so adding more armor to an already high-armor ship is very powerful. Even if your mods give you armor, more armor is strong
• A flat sensor profile reduction is also something I've almost never seen before. Notably here, it can reduce your sensor profiles to the negatives, allowing a lot of stealth options

[close]

These are all off the top of my head, and are strong ways to exploit this mod even in the most heavily modded runs. But the fun for me at least was designing them to be discovered, rather than making this mod OP without them.

[Deathawaits4]

My guy, you're stacking mods and expecting them to be balanced together. 

SMS is a huge balance change for starters. You can get some real degenerate perk setups like the Paragon I got down to 0.02 Flux.

I am not using SMS together with this mod, i'm just stating that it is very difficult to balance the exponential curve with the use case. Especially when AI fleets profit from the system aswell. I was just testing how SMS and this mod would work together, but as i said the Regen on those AI fleets is crazy crazy and makes them nearly unkillable, with this mod alone, AI fleets can still become extremely strong. I guess excluding nexerelin would make it more balanced, but fighting a horde of AI fleets with extremely powerfull armor regeneration while your own setup is extremely expensive makes it very difficult to balance.

Also my intention is in no way to add it to every ship, like i said, when a single capital ship has an upkeep of easily 1M per month while frigattes are at 20-40k, you'd have to focus on smaller ships. My current game setup allows me to have an effective income of around 1.5 - 2M credits per month. With the current curve i can easily outfit all my Cruisers and Capitals with around 1M, but adding a single frigatte to it will blow it up to 1.3M. I wouldn't say that my proposal would make it easier in any way except you have very inflated income either way, because instead of stacking your already large ships, you'd have to focus on more smaller ships, it would just shift the weight towards smaller vessels while giving more control of the economy.

I am not in any way expecting you to add this feature, i just wanted to explain my reasoning. The mod is great, well made and as others have said, you can definetly make use of it. It would just be great to have an option that would allow it to balance the mod for different use cases and setups. I wasn't asking you to change how the curve works by default, just an option to make it static but still expensive.

Sorry if i sounded rude, english is not my main language.

[Deathawaits4]

FWIW, Mazrim is absolutely correct that this is not meant to go on your entire fleet. That is the core design of the entire mod. Given that you say that you want to put them on all your ships, it seems also contradictory to say that it's too weak. Just put them on only some of your ships in that case, and it'll make those ships stronger.

The other part of this mod is that you need to figure things out to make it overpowered, it won't be given to you. Especially if you don't figure out how to customize effectively, it's going to be much weaker than other modded content. To be explicit, some broken combinations are:

(Warning, looking at these ruins a lot of the fun of the mod IMO)

Spoiler

• Hull and armor regen is inherently broken. There's very few mods that give armor regen (hull is common). People have excluded this mod for being overpowered for that alone
• The reduce Instruction upkeep Instruction can fairly easily make your loadouts free or almost free
• This can make logistic ships carry a lot more stuff and provide a lot of utility. After regen, this is the most powerful part of the mod, when combined with reduced upkeep to make these loadouts free. Logistic ships often have extra OP anyway
• The reduced weapon OP cost when upgraded can on some ships make the OP cost of the template negative. This is also fun when combined with reduced upkeep
• Adding hanger bays to any ship is also extremely powerful. Especially phase ships. Especially frigates. There's a reason why phase carriers aren't a thing, and a reason why frigates carriers are rare. When combined with reduced fighter damage, this is hilarious
• Armor has increasing marginal returns, so adding more armor to an already high-armor ship is very powerful. Even if your mods give you armor, more armor is strong
• A flat sensor profile reduction is also something I've almost never seen before. Notably here, it can reduce your sensor profiles to the negatives, allowing a lot of stealth options

[close]

These are all off the top of my head, and are strong ways to exploit this mod even in the most heavily modded runs. But the fun for me at least was designing them to be discovered, rather than making this mod OP without them.

Hei, as stated, my goal is not to plaster my entire fleet. I could easily do that with the current curve aswell by just reducing the value to 0, that is not an issue at all.

My reasoning is that the current curve basically forces you to put the platings on your large ships, and yes you are right, with regen being the go to, you can get extremely powerfull setups, but so does the AI and if you encounter a few fleets back to back with this armor regen, your basically fighting forever and even if you win by a large margin, your CR will go down drastically even if the enemy fleet is objectively weaker by a lot.

I don't see a use for extremely large storage spaces outside of strict vanilla gameplay. If you use nexerelins outposts, 10-15k is enough, which can be achieved quite easily. Sensor range is also not really usefull outside of early game or pirate themed roleplay.

You can cheese everything if you really want to, but thats not the point. Having an option for a flat cost would just change the dynamic, but wouldn't make it easier. My current playthrough gives me around 1.5 - 2m income. If a single battleship would cost around 1m to outfit with a strong liminal hull, that would already take a huge chunk of my income, while the current curve easily allows me to outfit 3 battleships and 2 cruisers for around 1M, but adding a smaller ship is just 100% pointless because the cost would instantly jump to 1.3M for basically 0 increase in fleet power.