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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods  (Read 36074 times)

WatchWolf

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2025, 04:26:26 AM »

Back with some final thoughts after beating the boss

Planet 3 was fun balance more planets like planet 3. 70 overtuned small ships with fighters is going to hit anyone in the FPS. Throw bigger not more where possible.
Please tone down how much things regen hull/armor at higher liminal connectivity its something like 8%/s at 250 and with a 15% healthgate per second it vastly caps damage burst strats. Its oppressive on everything. small ships fly off and regen to full, big ships take a forever to kill. Also just ask Nia Tahlan, people don't like things that heal and LIV only heal armor.

I think that boss is unkillable in my game without making some seriously unbalanced design decisions in csvs. 120 ships: 30 capitals, 50 cruisers: 40 w/e all stapled onto eachother with no cover for me. Separate hp and overload pools and they out range me. it usually has 2-3 superbosses stuck in the mess. Not to mention they are all at lim 300 and a single capital would take 2 of my ships 30 seconds to kill and nothing I have lives longer than 20 seconds. Its also extremely fast and can just jet burn into you killing the ship because its got infinite mass. I tried a lot of different cheese and normal strats but my usual almost unkillable stuff is very much killable when you point 5k dp of ships at it. I have ships that can easily solo the entire dorito fights or a triple ordo stack but that thing.. its scares me. So after failing for a bit I wanted to see what it would take to kill it. It took 8 actually immortal(as in I made them unkillable in a csv) cruisers doing healthgate per second lines of piercing damage several minutes to kill that boss. It may be just a bit overtuned. I think it just needs to be slower have a much higher cooldown on the ships system and not regen silly levels of hp/second on everything. Make it more station like so ships can actually back off. I also broke down and tried to fight the boss on normal mode and stapling a bunch of extra ships to 3 60dp superbosses is still just too much for both my graphics card and my fleet.

Maybe rename the hard option to something like lunatic+. It mentions hard is for unbalanced mods but unbalanced mods are this mods own hardmode. I had fun for the most part story was neet, mod has lots of polish. It just randomly added a 175% steroid to a few too many superbosses from other mods for my comfort. Also having 4 required 1fps major fights kinda killed the fun for me. Mod might just not be right for my biblically accurate Persian Sector. Cool mod it just likely isn't for me. But hay balance however you want, I am just some guy on the internet take everything I say with an entirely too large pile of salt.
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Mamick

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2025, 04:51:34 AM »

I think that roughly all of that is the point, and if you don't have overpowered mods, design your fleet specifically to be as powerful as possible, and specifically do degenerate strategies to beat the boss then you probably shouldn't be playing on hard. That was pretty much the entire point of hard, to be difficult for the most OP mods. I tried to signpost that as much as possible (e.g. in the main post I say it's extremely challenging and the most difficult modded content I know of, especially on harder difficulties).

So yes, obviously it's flagrantly broken, and you have to bring your best broken ships. Obviously I limit cheese strats. That was my point, and it's very easy to go into the settings to turn down the difficulty once you realise it's too hard and your mods aren't overpowered enough. Other feedback I've gotten has said that Normal is too easy and they beat it without even using any capital ships.

Sure, I could have come up with more fun ways to add difficulty in ways that are more enjoyable to play, but that's hard and requires a lot more work.

About frame rate, what's your CPU? I feel like I can get a solid 30 FPS in pretty much all the fights with a 1000 DP battle size limit. And I'm curious why you didn't just turn down the difficulty much earlier if you weren't having fun?
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legenbone

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2025, 06:56:09 PM »

The final boss difficulty seems to not persist between save reloads for some reason... Could be just me. I restart the game and immediately load in then the boss is far easier, but if I fail and reload the save without closing the game first the boss scales to a crazy amount.

Also is there a possibility to add an option to tune the X% ships affected by Y% number? I would like more ships to be affected less per ship, so I can recover some good ships to feed into the hull forge.

Thanks for the awesome mod!
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WatchWolf

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2025, 10:27:37 PM »

I think there is a distinction between flagrantly broken mods and just over powered since the difficult states "overpowered mods" that's what I brought. If I can make a 30dp cruiser able to duel a superboss, I likely have mods that are overpowered. If I have a 0 dp frigate that can do the same and just frame 1 instakills them its absolutely broken. Its likely a difference in viewpoints. What we each consider OP verses insanely broken. It feels like the difference between a spell in a game that does maybe 4 -10 times more damage than intended verses something that just instakills everything in a 100ft radius every tic by dealing bit caped damage regardless of LOS. I enjoy finding multiple mechanics that overlap to make something overpowered. But I don't enjoy turning a game into a walking simulator. A degree of player skill and chance of failure tend to enhance a game for me. Its also possible I ran into a bug or other mods acted in such a way that your intended difficulty was skewed.

As to why I didn't drop the difficulty I had been beating each planet by changing tactics. At least one of them was fun I think 2 others might have been enjoyable had my frame rate been good. I tried a bit of a test without liminal and cranked fleet size to 500 and I was still at playable framerates It may be some other mods interacting with yours just causing the game to have to make too many calculations at once. I guess I felt like limit testing what was deemed a challenge and found that the challenge had more artificial difficulty than I could stomach. I did mention "to each their own" if people are actually running around in ships with 5k flux dis with .01 shields and fly at 1k speed all the more power to them. Its likely the difficulty "hard" means different things to each of us. I like my hard games. I enjoy soulslike challenge runs and playing Total War games on Legend. I would consider those types of things "hard". The enemies are given a serious leg up but they are certainly beatable. You often have to use the best tactics and it requires a reasonable amount of skill, cheese, and definitely some luck. Like beating pre nerf Promised Consort Rahdan was "hard" but it was certainly physically possible given the tools in the game. The planets were hard, maybe a bit too hard but eh could be my fault. The boss just seemed maliciously hard in a sort of "you think your stuff is op, try this ball of unfair stats" kind of way. I guess my heavily modded Starsector just lacked the tools for your "hard". Which again is totally fine.

I have seen the normal is too easy comments and can respect that. I don't know what level of Liminal buff ships get on normal but if its lower than 100% I could see that feeling easy. It might just be the case of 25% damage reduction is good 75% is maybe a bit too strong but 99.9% is over the top type of situation. Maybe since it effects so many things on a ship you just get insane compounding buffs at much higher levels. Thinking about it and looking back the healthgating is absolutely the most annoying thing. If I beam a frigate for 10k I would like them to die or at least take half. Also the boss being able to just straight up ram you for untold damage because its combined mass is extreme felt cheap, but hay maybe you expect everyone to have global flicker cores or something. Maybe the biggest issue for me was having some other mods superbosses made exponentially more powerfull then stapled together and thrown at me in a ball.

On to my hardware. Its certainly an older rig at this point I am running a i7-4790 RTX 2070 with 32gb of ram it still runs most things on high graphics getting around 60 fps.

Almost nothing should be made for everyone, since something for everyone its made for no one. I am bringing up my experience and hope it might improve others. Its a cool mod plenty of polish and care went into it, I do hope people enjoy it.
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zel023

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2025, 02:16:39 AM »

I was excited to use these hullmods, but they really don't seem worth it by how expensive they are in OP and the fact that you can't build them in (you could make them cost 10 SP for Template I, 15 SP for Template II, etc.). Also, I don't like the restriction of "too many instructions in this group," which limits the usage if I want to create a template for utility ships.
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Mamick

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2025, 03:49:42 PM »

The final boss difficulty seems to not persist between save reloads for some reason... Could be just me. I restart the game and immediately load in then the boss is far easier, but if I fail and reload the save without closing the game first the boss scales to a crazy amount.

Also is there a possibility to add an option to tune the X% ships affected by Y% number? I would like more ships to be affected less per ship, so I can recover some good ships to feed into the hull forge.

Thanks for the awesome mod!

Yeah, the boss randomises each time you load the game. The randomisation parameters should be the same though. I'll look into adding a setting to change the percentage of ships in the next patch (which I'll release hopefully soon, when I'm less busy at work)

I think there is a distinction between flagrantly broken mods and just over powered since the difficult states "overpowered mods" that's what I brought. ...

Thanks for your feedback! I think that the FPS being too low is definitely something I'll try to look at. I think it's hard to balance a mod's difficulty around other mods, so maybe I'll add a more intermediate setting. I'd have to think about it more. The only thing where I was more deliberate about balancing tbh is with pure vanilla, since I know what people are running there.

I was excited to use these hullmods, but they really don't seem worth it by how expensive they are in OP and the fact that you can't build them in (you could make them cost 10 SP for Template I, 15 SP for Template II, etc.). Also, I don't like the restriction of "too many instructions in this group," which limits the usage if I want to create a template for utility ships.

Utility ships are probably what are currently the strongest in this mod tbh, so I'm not sure I want to give them more buffs. For the others though, I think there are settings to adjust those?
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Shadel

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2025, 06:29:29 PM »

Based on me just grabbing the Bonus Fuel/Cargo space and the "Costs less" on an I liminal template, I think I managed to get about 6 or so capital fuel and cargo ships letting me fly around with 30k space of each... for free.
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FFT

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2025, 03:25:29 PM »

Do planet encounters scale with fleet size or not? If they do, then i guess thats on me for bloating my fleet too much because i like to haul ships around.
Spoilers below..

Spoiler
If its intended to go with 6 unkillable Zigs, then holy heck this is overtuned



It took the cheesiest of cheeses and a lot of sweat ant tears for me to "beat" this and in no universe this is possible with vanilla ships. Which probably means im doing something wrong.

What was the intended difficulty? Two zigs? Three? Well anyway i dont know what exactly is broken in my current playthrough, suposedly the fleet scaling, but while the beginning of the crisis was awesome, its main body and ending really disappointed (boss got deleted; i guess its because it does not scale with fleetpoints.) Honestly the swarm of evertanking Monitors with Shades were way way way more scarier and tought to fight than the "final boss".

The combination of phase+speed+hit protection+hull regen is honestly so annoying than i think i had my fill of that for the rest of my modded runs ever. Anyhow, i do want to hear what is the intended balancing point because im pretty sure i went with the wrong way of doing things which spoiled otherwise great mod experience for me.
[close]

TL:DR; the mod is great fun and very interesting, but really broken at the Crisis planet fights, especially if you have a large fleet (assuming it scales with FP).
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FFT

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2025, 03:34:38 PM »

I do agree with Watchwolf on the point of artificial difficulty. I played on Standart and still basically shat a hedgehog out quills forward combatting the planets. Then the boss was a pushover but im starting to suspect that it may have not initialized properly? Since i didnt have a ball of ships, but just a lot of "Abomination" placeholder boxes instead. Anyway, i do want to learn what is the intended way to play this mod, as it is very interesting mod to play with up untill the crisis.

Edit:
Small complaint (story spoilers below):
Spoiler
It is a little jarring to be able to "Talk to research team" and then "discuss funding opportunities" with Jarn who was supposedly devoured by the Entity after the Crisis began. Broke my suspension of disbelief a little, but its really a minor thing, just wanted to address that too
[close]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2025, 03:38:12 PM by FFT »
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Mamick

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2025, 12:22:31 AM »

I do agree with Watchwolf on the point of artificial difficulty. I played on Standart and still basically shat a hedgehog out quills forward combatting the planets. Then the boss was a pushover but im starting to suspect that it may have not initialized properly? Since i didnt have a ball of ships, but just a lot of "Abomination" placeholder boxes instead. Anyway, i do want to learn what is the intended way to play this mod, as it is very interesting mod to play with up untill the crisis.

Edit:
Small complaint (story spoilers below):
Spoiler
It is a little jarring to be able to "Talk to research team" and then "discuss funding opportunities" with Jarn who was supposedly devoured by the Entity after the Crisis began. Broke my suspension of disbelief a little, but its really a minor thing, just wanted to address that too
[close]

Yeah, if there were a bunch of placeholder ships, something went wrong with generating the boss. It's very finicky in fact, since Starsector doesn't really support doing this kind of thing. I'm not sure exactly what could be going wrong here, but it's usually ok on a fresh restart. That's probably the biggest bug, and one I'm not sure how to fix. The boss was probably much easier for you because of that.

Planet encounters do not scale with fleet size, nope. Since you were playing on standard, it probably is hard to beat using a vanilla setup unless you use really overpowered strategies, but that's intentional. If you want to play something feasible to beat in vanilla, easy is recommended.

I should hopefully be addressing everything else in a patch I'll release soon!
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Mamick

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2025, 12:29:13 AM »

I was excited to use these hullmods, but they really don't seem worth it by how expensive they are in OP and the fact that you can't build them in (you could make them cost 10 SP for Template I, 15 SP for Template II, etc.). Also, I don't like the restriction of "too many instructions in this group," which limits the usage if I want to create a template for utility ships.

Oh, also, if you want to ignore restrictions there's the command for that. `LiminalOverrideRestrictions` will ignore all OP and per category restrictions.
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Mamick

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2025, 12:43:49 AM »

Quote
v2.0.7
Save compatible. Can be added to existing saves.

- Fixed a bug where fighter bays given by Instructions were cleared on game load if the ship had no other fighter bays.
- Decreased scaling with decreased compute for the crisis boss.
- Capped the ship speed Instruction and ship regen Instruction, to avoid multiplicative effects with other Instructions for higher difficulties of the crisis.
- Decreased the number of ships in planet invasions, but made them stronger. This is especially noticeable for higher difficulties.
- Clarified in settings that higher difficulties are more computationally intensive.
- Disabled talking to the research team once the crisis has begun.
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Madman666

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2025, 05:40:36 PM »

Hello there! First of all, the concept of this mod is amazing, the UI, the idea - everything s super high quality! But I think i am misunderstanding something about how to use this mod... Templates are incredibly expensive OP wise, while the point limit for instructions is very steep. For example, template I already costs 40 OP to install on a capital ship and its about the only template you can install without basically ripping out everything else, or leaving most weapon mounts empty. Template I only has whopping 8 points to spend on instructions.

That lets you add like 8% weapon damage instruction which uses up 6 instruction points. 8% weapon damage for 40 OP? And yes, i know that you can add negative instructions, to extend the points of the template, so you can do something like say increasing ship's maintenance costs by x2 to add whole TWO more points, that you can add as a positive instruction. So as a result your ship gets 10% more damage, for x2 more supplies AND 40 ordnance points AND money upkeep for the template. That doesn't really sound good at all, does it? Why ever use that over hardened shields or expanded mags?  ???

As it stands, it feels like adding templates doesn't improve my ship builds at all and i am using the mod mostly to just introduce an endgame threat to fight. I feel like i am missing something.

Are there maybe ways to research upgrades, that i simply did not unlock yet, that decrease template OP costs, and increase template instruction point limits besides just making your ship into a supply black hole, or gimping some of its stats beyond being usable (x0.4 the fire rate of a weapon type)?
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Mamick

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2025, 10:51:52 AM »

Hello there! First of all, the concept of this mod is amazing, the UI, the idea - everything s super high quality! But I think i am misunderstanding something about how to use this mod... Templates are incredibly expensive OP wise, while the point limit for instructions is very steep. For example, template I already costs 40 OP to install on a capital ship and its about the only template you can install without basically ripping out everything else, or leaving most weapon mounts empty. Template I only has whopping 8 points to spend on instructions.

That lets you add like 8% weapon damage instruction which uses up 6 instruction points. 8% weapon damage for 40 OP? And yes, i know that you can add negative instructions, to extend the points of the template, so you can do something like say increasing ship's maintenance costs by x2 to add whole TWO more points, that you can add as a positive instruction. So as a result your ship gets 10% more damage, for x2 more supplies AND 40 ordnance points AND money upkeep for the template. That doesn't really sound good at all, does it? Why ever use that over hardened shields or expanded mags?  ???

As it stands, it feels like adding templates doesn't improve my ship builds at all and i am using the mod mostly to just introduce an endgame threat to fight. I feel like i am missing something.

Are there maybe ways to research upgrades, that i simply did not unlock yet, that decrease template OP costs, and increase template instruction point limits besides just making your ship into a supply black hole, or gimping some of its stats beyond being usable (x0.4 the fire rate of a weapon type)?

I think whether this mod is overpowered or underpowered actually depends quite a bit on how deep your understanding of Starsector's and the mod's systems are. So it's funny that I've been told both. For your questions in particular, I think there are 5 factors to consider:
  • You can upgrade the Instructions beyond their base level
  • Before you upgrade them much, they are generally weaker than vanilla hullmods. This is intentional, because if they were as strong as vanilla hullmods that would be overpowered because you could stack the modifiers you want to fit your ship. For example, each additional point of armor has more impact than the last, and this applies to other things like weapons too
  • Some of the instructions are really powerful, and don't exist in vanilla or most mods. For example, there's nothing in vanilla that will give you a damage boost to all your weapons. Buffing missile damage is very strong
  • You need to specialise your build more, taking relevant positive and negative instructions. For example, all the negative instructions for weapons you don't use have no effect.
  • There are instructions that give unique effects, like regeneration, that don't exist in vanilla and are rare in mods.

That said, if you want to be overpowered and want it to always be a strict upgrade over vanilla without needing to optimize anything, feel free to adjust the settings!
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Madman666

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Re: [0.98a-RC7] Liminal: Custom, Upgradeable Hullmods
« Reply #89 on: Today at 02:10:44 PM »

Thanks for taking your time to answer!

To reply:
1) Every time you upgrade an instruction, it costs more points to fit into template, can you upgrade template itself? Because going from 40 op for a template I to 75 and more is so prohibitively costly, it hardly makes sense to use. It often requires to rip out hullmods that make or break the build.

2) I am not sure, why would it have to be weaker than vanilla hullmods and being stronger makes it OP? Vanilla hullmods are free to use (well not totally free, you need to learn how to use them first for like 6k creds on average, but once you get the modspec, you can place them on any ship for fraction of ordnance points a liminal template would cost). While liminal template requires hundreds of thousands of credits poured in and uses massive amount of ordnance points. In my opinion, it makes them basically useless until you max upgrade them, so there s next to no progression. Why not have a single level of instructions then, but more costly to research, to skip the phase of 'this is not helping, because its weaker than normal hullmods'?

3) Yes, i agree that boosting all the weapons at once is something base game doesn't have. But how useful it is, to have 10% boost to all weapons, when it requires you to let go of certain weapon types? Or removing vital hullmods (like expanded missiles\mags or hardened shields and etc)? Getting 10% more out of your reaper torpedoes is great, but if it comes at a cost of gimping your ammo supply or fire rate of primary weapons, thats not worth it.

4) Lets say we have a ship, thats super concentrated on energy damage, typical high tech brawler with sturdy shields and energy mounts and couple finisher missile mounts. You can give it a template with instructions that increases all damage, while also negatives, that gimp ballistic rate and missile fire rates to give it even more energy damage. All that still falls short when compared to just adding expanded mags hullmod, that boost the burst outputs of most energy weapons that are reliant on ammo. You can have both expanded mags and the damage template of course, so you get more ammo with more damage. But to sustain heavy OP cost of the template itself, you d have to give up op heavy hullmods like hardened shields or you d have to barcode them in, to afford the template. You can get creative with it, but i still dont see how that 10% boost of damage is worth the finagling you ll have to do. You can also extend the range of all weapons! Its cool, but you also have integrated targeting unit, thats much cheaper and give more weapon range than a template. Once again, we can, like you said, stack ITU and a template to get even more range, but that increase would come at a cost of ripping something out, hitting either dps outputs of survivability.

5) Thats true, but once again, those costs make its use cases extremely limited. Like regeneration - to maximize its usefullness, you d probably use it on something like invictus, that gets hit a lot and has a crapton of armor. That would be quite benefitting from regenerating its armor. You can do some crazy armor stacking with smodding vanilla hullmods and then adding regen instruction on top. But the costs of it still ruin it quite a bit and it will hardly be anywhere near as useful on something with less armor.

Its just my 5 cents after fiddling with the mod for a while, so dont take it as me not liking it, rather, i wouldn't even bother writing all this up if i didn't xD I probably will fiddle with the cost balancing a bit, but i am not sure where is the setting that governs how much the template hullmods cost? For now, i guess, i ll just keep upgrading everything, maybe i ll come up with a build that benefits from templates properly.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:18:24 PM by Madman666 »
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