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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Let's talk about Battlefreighters  (Read 3878 times)

Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2025, 11:48:36 AM »

"Quickly farting out missiles" is its job.

Right, except there's no way you're fitting EMR on a Venture without S-modding it, and I doubt you'll put an officer with Missile Specialization on it either. So you get three volleys of Harpoons and that's it.

Why wouldn't you just use both Insulated Engines and Militarized Subsystems on a proper freighter then?

Er, thre are no frigate-sized freighters. And if you want to use real freighters then there's no reason to use ANY combat freighter in the first place because real freighters are a lot more efficient. I thought we were just comparing combat freighters among themselves.

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Also Both Hound and Cerberus have Shielded Cargoholds so you can smuggle space cocaine easily without patrols finding out.

Shielded Cargoholds doesn't guarantee you'll pass an inspection, it's roll of the dice - so you want to avoid it happening anyway. It is truly a bafflingly useless hullmod.
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secondcircle

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2025, 12:35:19 PM »

it's not overconfident. It's the relative space paradigm

the Gemini is actually positioning perfectly well and reviewing the incoming threat properly. It's just that due to its extremely limited acceleration/deacceleration and max speed stats. It seems as if it's charging into the enemy. When in reality it's trying to run away. But because you are observing the Gemini from its perspective. It seems as if it's going towards the enemy. When in reality the battlefield is moving towards it

I'm pretty sure this is exactly the problem, try giving it 100+ speed or something stupid and it will be a completely different ship.
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happycrow

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2025, 01:44:19 PM »

I adore combat freighters bc in "the rp of the game," those are the dudes I mentally identify with (not an accident it's these kinds of ships that feature in my micro-fiction over in Lore). The problem imo is that we have some of these ships being great, and others are sorta "eh, let the NPCs use them" even if you are a dedicated logistics-enjoyer.

I love Ventures. They're a great combination of "not fabulous at anything but good enough at a LOT of things."

I love Hounds. Their cargo space is small, but put twelve of them in your fleet, and it adds up fast. Plus they're zippy on both a burn and combat level. They don't do a whole lot besides die in a straight up fight against anything in their weight class, but they're great for harassing and for supporting some of high-tech's fragile fast movers.

I love Shepherds. They're the Venture's super-baby brother and I wish we had a viable version of this concept in the middle at the destroyer weight class. Like Venture, it's master of nothing but good enough at a surprising number of things.

With respect, Buffalo Mk.II doesn't belong in this conversation -- it's a pure combat conversion with no freighter utility. With expensive upkeep and only 20 cargo storage, it's not a combat freighter in any meaningful sense of the word. It's the Tarsus->Condor conversion chain but for missiles rather than cheap interceptors. I suspect you could convert Mercuries to create a nice initial wall of Harpoons the same way (and then order them to retreat before they die, which their speed will allow). Its good OP would allow that, but its extremely limited passenger and cargo size works the same way BuffmkII does -- no longer a logistics vessel.

Base Colossus would be a great combat freighter if half those gun turrets were turned into missile mounts. Its speed and cargo still makes it worthwhile, but if it gets engaged, it's just dead (unlike Venture). It's logistics are great, though. Possibly unfair to include it.

Colossus Mk. II and Mk.III both suffer from the same problem -- those small ballistic turrets don't do much to protect their thin skins. They die very quickly to almost anything (even Hounds). Mk. II is a pretty good station-killer if you're going after pirates with a weaker fleet and can suppress their fighter/missile load.

Colossus Mk.III is pretty good as a troop transport and okay-ish as a combat carrier -- though ime as a non-optimized middling player, they die faster than either Gemini or Condor. I'm trying to figure out how to give them some love and make it work. Its fragility is bad enough that I find Gemini outperforming it consistently (but then again, Gemini is no troop carrier).

I struggle to figure out how to make good use of Cerberus. A frigate that isn't zippy is kind of a victim (though its Burn is great! 12 burn with no add-ons for Cargo Enjoyers fails to suck, a lot). So far I put flak and LMGs on it and tell it to support other stuff. Since its write-up is very explicitly that "it can survive long enough to run," that makes sense. The built-in overrides make the LP one zippy and fast for interdicting hounds, etc., without losing cargo capacity. In any longer fight it falls to pieces, but that's just a built-in part of the game disadvantaging frigates and destroyers regardless of firepower.  As a horse-archer enjoyer who enjoys fast plus enduring, I don't like that, but I'm not about to lecture Alex on fundamental mechanics.

I like Wayfarer, and I want to like it more, but I almost never use it. The problem with it is its logistics is pretty much awful. 5 supplies per month (for a frigate hauling 150 cargo), compared to 6 for Base Colossus (for 900 Cargo) or 3 for Base Buffalo means that it comes in way behind on "supplies per haul" and isn't really effective on a "use it for escorting/harassing like Hound," (3/mth) bc the math fails. It's fast and stealthy-enough for zooming around doing plot-related stuff where you don't want to have a big profile, but its utility outside of that gets dodgy quickly ime.

My suggestions are actually super simple.

Wayfarer: integral efficiency package and it would go from a pretty okay ship to a real standout.
Cerberus: it's solidly okay. But since its whole setup tactically is "survive long enough to get out of combat," replace integral burn drive with integral augmented drive field, and it'd go from "it's okay" to "wow that's fabulous."
Colossi -- swap some ball turrets for missile mounts, and like the Buffm2, let its paper-thin skin stay the balancing factor, so that it's working in the same category that dedicated Harpoon enjoyers are doing, but at the Cruiser weight class. That would make all three variants.
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happycrow

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2025, 01:50:47 PM »

Don't think Mule or Gemini really need anything. Mule isn't exceptional or interesting: what makes it work is exactly how dull and vanilla it is -- a decent-enough freighter that can slug it out. Yay.

IMO folks are trying to shoehorn Gemini into a role for which it's ill-suited. One wing isn't enough to be a viable force-projection carrier, but with support fighters, it's a completely adequate and useful freighter-cum-escort carrier with enough leftover OP to be flexible for salvage/exploration/logistics purposes.
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TheMeInTeam

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2025, 02:18:12 PM »

Unlike gemini, colossus mk 3 won't Leeroy Jenkins into the enemy line if you just give it PD, so you can use it as a true carrier.  Which it's pretty bad at due to the hangar penalties it has and 0 missile support, but at least it will stay back.  IMO this is a logistics ship with crappy fighting capability, closer to a buffalo than a buffalo mk 2 in terms of the logistics:combat capability tradeoff.

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With respect, Buffalo Mk.II doesn't belong in this conversation -- it's a pure combat conversion with no freighter utility. With expensive upkeep and only 20 cargo storage, it's not a combat freighter in any meaningful sense of the word.

Even if it leans more on "battle" than "freighter", it's still a freighter conversion as the game explicitly states, and still has a civilian-grade hull per per the wiki.  A legit space technical.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2025, 02:48:10 PM »

Aren't Colossus MKII and MKIII also pure combat conversions?
And also by that logic is Prometheus MKII and Atlas MKII combat freighters?

Can we give Derelicts more cargo space so they can be also combat freighters? And entire army made of combat freighters seems fitting considering they serve the Explorarium

Then we can all complain about how much Bastille sux

Spoiler

[close]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 02:54:06 PM by Killer of Fate »
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TheMeInTeam

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2025, 03:05:08 PM »

Now I'm reminded of those meme alignment charts.  Lawful good would have only freighters with cargo capacity and viable combat stats.  Mule is a combat freighter.

Chaotic evil would call doom and conquest combat freighters.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2025, 03:08:42 PM »

Now I'm reminded of those meme alignment charts.  Lawful good would have only freighters with cargo capacity and viable combat stats.  Mule is a combat freighter.

Chaotic evil would call doom and conquest combat freighters.
Heron with Additional Berthing entering the chat

tbh, this would be a fun theme. If there was like a Domain-era conversion of Heron into a planetary invasion vehicle with Advanced Ground Support Package. Would be a neat item for the Persean League

Kinda like Condor to Tarsus. Except in reverse
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happycrow

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2025, 03:54:28 PM »

Aren't Colossus MKII and MKIII also pure combat conversions?

Sure, so's the Condor. Do we call it a combat freighter? Its cargo is very limited, and we can argue definitions all over the place... but let's be real: BuffMkII has 20 cargo capacity. Once you have a destroyer hull with less cargo capacity than a Kite, it's definitely not a freighter any more by any yardstick that makes sense to me.

(Edit: ofc ymmv, and I've gone back and forth over the Atlases but don't consider them in the convo for the same reason. When two hounds carry as much as your capital...)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 03:56:44 PM by happycrow »
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Flet

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2025, 05:21:20 PM »

I use armor+hull tanked ventures as early game anchors when im planning to train up armor tanking officers. They are easy to get from pirate markets, along with manticores. So my early game is often some manticores escorting ventures. Like this.
https://imgur.com/a/fgCuQUf
When im ready to upgrade to bigger ships they go away though, but these are pretty tanky given you dont need logistical support if you take bulk transport
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Bungee_man

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2025, 06:13:08 PM »

Shielded Cargoholds doesn't guarantee you'll pass an inspection, it's roll of the dice - so you want to avoid it happening anyway. It is truly a bafflingly useless hullmod.

Yeah, I think the system just needs to be reworked such that shielded cargo holds just precludes up to X amount of cargo from being discovered no matter what. I see what the intention was, but the fact that it's possible to just avoid patrols means there's no reason to gamble around not doing so.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2025, 06:16:57 PM »

Gemini probably needs more flux? I remember having flux issues whenever i tried to fit it.
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Brainwright

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2025, 10:52:57 PM »

The real problem with the Gemini and Mule is the rear ballistic mounts are so far back it severely hampers combat either as weapons or point defense.

I suppose the idea is that you're supposed to present one side or the other during combat, but the AI won't respect that and the weapons aren't suited to it.

Condor is a good early combat freighterish addition for additional crew.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2025, 12:18:34 AM »

The real problem with the Gemini and Mule is the rear ballistic mounts are so far back it severely hampers combat either as weapons or point defense.

I suppose the idea is that you're supposed to present one side or the other during combat, but the AI won't respect that and the weapons aren't suited to it.

Condor is a good early combat freighterish addition for additional crew.
I have never seen a gemini try to broadside
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Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Hamsterling

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2025, 12:31:46 AM »

Unlike gemini, colossus mk 3 won't Leeroy Jenkins into the enemy line if you just give it PD, so you can use it as a true carrier.  Which it's pretty bad at due to the hangar penalties it has and 0 missile support, but at least it will stay back.

I run, or at least I like to think I still run, a Colossus MK3 with two Dagger wings and barely enough Vulcans to shoot down the occasional missile.

And at 8 DP, it's the most cost-effective carrier to launch six Atropos torpedoes. I usually pair that with a Condor running a pair of Broadsword wings.

It'll die to even a small Mudskipper Mk2 wolfpack, but hey, as long as it works for early game...
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