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Author Topic: Let's talk about Battlefreighters  (Read 3879 times)

Bummelei

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Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« on: February 20, 2025, 06:11:45 AM »

Not long ago I started a battlefreighter-themed run to see how they were doing. In the past, this was one of my favorite ship classes in the early and mid game due to its versatility and fairly tolerable combat effectiveness, but in the current version, only a small part of them can be called worthy. I would like to share my opinion and at the same time hear yours. I will start in the order of the most painful.

Gemini.
In previous patches, the ship received a number of generous improvements and looking at the dry stat numbers, one could say that the ship should play much better, but in fact, absolutely nothing has changed. The ship has not become better. The root of its problem is its behavior. Gemini, being a light carrier, considers itself immortal and CONSTANTLY tries to find a way into the heat of battle and even under close supervision still manages to get punched in the face in seemingly the safest situations for it. At first I thought that completely abandoning the offensive weapon in favor of a defensive one (flak-cannon) would smooth out the situation, but even removing all weapons does not change the situation, they still go where they should not. After thinking, I decided to give the Gemini a CARRIER tag expecting that this would dramatically improve the situation and ... in general, survivability has improved infinitely, but the disadvantage was turning it into a reskin of the Condor. A flaw in behavior was also revealed - the ship always stayed outside the weapon range (approximately at a distance of 1200-1300), which did not allow it to fire in 90% of cases. At first I thought that this was the ideal solution to the situation, but the taste of mediocrity did not cease to leave me - among all the light carriers, it has the best set of weapons and it is wasted, turning into a pale copy of another ship. But without this measure, it simply does not survive the appearance of cruisers in battles, starting from the early mid-game they begin to die in almost every battle and the only option is to issue long-range support weapons: Pilums and Thunders. What other options are there? Buff the speed by 30-40 units, put it on the same level with other Midline destroyers. The situation is so sad that it requires either a review of behavior, or a radical buff.

Wayfarer.
Weak link between Hound and Mule. The first is good as a "cheap as dirt fast harasser", and the second as an early-game anchor-truck toothless but capable of surviving an attack by a cruiser, Wayfarer suffers from a lack of literally everything. Starting with cargo space and a higher cost compared to Cerberus and Hound and ending with poor combat effectiveness. And what's worse is that other frigates of comparable cost have been receiving buffs of varying degrees from patch to patch, thus hammering the final nail into its
coffin. Its cargo hold does not justify its disability. It would be nice to see it as a "premium cargo frigate", seriously increasing its stats along with OP and credit cost (or increasing the cargo hold by 100-150 units by turning it into a truck, although this will disrupt the consistent progression in cargo space among other freighters).

Cerberus.
This is a case where the Hound upgrade went wrong. Compared to its younger brother, it looks pale, due to the loss of almost half of its speed and an increase in size. And although it seems that the increase in flux capacity allows it to take Makeshift Shield Generator, in practice this further reduces its survivability due to the decrease in its already low speed. As a solution, I would like to suggest either a serious increase in speed, or the removal of the 20% speed debuff from hullmod. It would also be interesting to see the S-mod effect on Makeshift Shield Generator (without these things, this modification will remain forgotten and useless).

Venture.
I absolutely adore this ship. Seriously. I buy it in every game, right after the start, as soon as I get 100k. Evil missile box. It has everything, and cargo space, and fuel tanks, and Surveying Equipment hullmod, and armor. Although each build option is awkward and clumsy in its own way due to the energy weapon in the center slot (and I desperately hope that by version 1.0 Alex will change his mind and give him a hybrid), I still love it. But in addition to the above-described energy slot and very sad flux stats, it also has an unpleasant drawback - an extremely low turning speed. This is a disaster. The basic version without any maneuverability skills does not turn at all, and with S-moded Heavy Armor, which Venture loves very much, it simply turns into a brick. And everything would be fine, but the ship has limited weapon arcs and most of the time it can fire only 2 slots out of 3, which is why its already low firepower (for a cruiser) drops even lower. I would like to separately highlight the LP version, the release of which I was really looking forward to thinking that it could become my ultimate player ship. Due to its abysmal maneuverability, even in the hands of Pathers, it does not pose the slightest threat. A 50% maneuverability buff would greatly help the ship, the low amount of OP simply does not allow it to take Auxiliary Thrusters on its own.

I will only mention the other ships in passing, since they do not experience any particular problems.

Hound.
Since the Rugged hullmod was added, the idea of using Hound does not seem so desperate. Depending on the need, give it a Mauler to fight against armor, or an HVD with HAC to harass opponents and it is ready to go.

Mule.
Clinically underarmed. Can be turned into a tank if you give it armor and speed.

Colossus mk.2
Exclusively an enemy ship. Only found as wrecked hulls, too expensive to repair, and by the time you can farm them from Pathers it's completely obsolete. Can quickly wipe out several player ships in the early game if you're not careful.

Colossus mk.3
A brutal Swiss Army knife. Has cargo space, two hangars, and a Ground Support Package for raids. S-moded Insulated Engines makes Phantom obsolete.
lmao
[close]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 06:22:10 AM by Bummelei »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2025, 06:44:27 AM »

I dunno

Have you tried giving Gemini CARRIER and COMBAT tags?
Honestly I'm shocked Dev didn't give this thing a CARRIER tag considering it literally is a carrier in fleet builder stats
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TheMeInTeam

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2025, 08:31:02 AM »

I have also experienced the gemini problem.  I wanted to spam them and get more mileage from fighter bay skills, but a lot of otherwise viable builds on them don't work right now since you can't use fighter strike (it treats it as eliminate) or many other orders and still keep them alive.  Their system could keep them close to the condor in performance, but with how they play right now, they have no shot at competing against condors which also mass blast missiles using fast racks.

Ventures are just missile boats IME.  They occasionally get to shoot something else, but it's mostly missiles.  On the bright side, they benefit quite a bit from both expanded racks and autoloader, so they can dump quite a few in short timeframes.  After that, they are mostly useless due to the speed.  However, I forgive them because they also have decent cargo and you can S mod their survey equipment and run industry to survey almost everything at min cost, even with one.  Two + industry handles every planet I've seen at min cost.

I pick up hounds early on in most games and still have a few until I have nearly a full end game fleet.  They are very good at the job of "send second in command to pursue", costing you practically nothing to tear up retreating fleets, and they hide your AI cores and such from scans.  They have a lot of bad matchups in actual combat, but against some ships the AI really struggles to hit them.

Buffalo mk 2 remains a very binary ship.  It can just spit a tremendous volume of missiles for its DP...but you need a lot of them to win or at least gain tempo from doing so.  By "a lot" I mean both in terms of sheer volume of missile weapons *and* to actually get enough buffalo mk 2s to flood the field with missiles.  On the other hand, if you actually have the stuff, 15 buffaloes with expanded racks can fire 6 volleys of 105 harpoons for 60 DP.  That's several hundred thousand damage worth of stuff fired in the opening minutes of combat.  IME the main problem with this is getting enough harpoon MRM pods + actually getting 15+ buffalo mk 2.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2025, 08:57:55 AM »

@Wayfarer: the best smuggling ship in early game. Frigate sized, no civilian ship sensor profile penalty, highest cargo/DP among all frigates, very generous OP pool which lets you use Insulated Engine Assembly and Expanded Cargo Holds pretty much without compromising any of the combat stats. In comparison Hound is not a "dirt cheap harasser", it's scrap that you should never have in your fleet because its only role is to get blown up by the player in pirate fleets. So is the Cerberus, for that matter.

And Mule is not an "anchor" because that's an entirely made-up role that doesn't actually exist in practice. If one of your ships draws a lot of enemy fire it will just die faster, this isn't an MMO.

@Venture: now here's a bad ship.  Poor dissipation, poor shields/flux pool, poor OP(and you have to pay the Militarized Subsystems tax on top of that) It will quickly fart out whatever few missiles it has thanks to FMR and then become a useless paperweight. Exploration? It absolutely cannot stand up to Berserkers and has base burn of 8 once militarized which is unacceptable for exploring high danger systems for example. No militarization? Say goodbye to all your combat bonuses and enjoy sensor profile of a small moon.
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Bummelei

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2025, 09:03:38 AM »

I dunno

Have you tried giving Gemini CARRIER and COMBAT tags?
Honestly I'm shocked Dev didn't give this thing a CARRIER tag considering it literally is a carrier in fleet builder stats

I think CARRIER, COMBAT tags only change eliminate order to fighter strike command. At least i doesn't see any real improvements from it's default state.

Buffalo mk 2 remains a very binary ship.  It can just spit a tremendous volume of missiles for its DP...but you need a lot of them to win or at least gain tempo from doing so.  By "a lot" I mean both in terms of sheer volume of missile weapons *and* to actually get enough buffalo mk 2s to flood the field with missiles.  On the other hand, if you actually have the stuff, 15 buffaloes with expanded racks can fire 6 volleys of 105 harpoons for 60 DP.  That's several hundred thousand damage worth of stuff fired in the opening minutes of combat.  IME the main problem with this is getting enough harpoon MRM pods + actually getting 15+ buffalo mk 2.

I really need to try Buffalo spam at least once, it was advertised on YouTube and forum for a long time and i still didn't done this. I'll try this when i get a colony.
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TheMeInTeam

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2025, 09:24:09 AM »

Buffalo mk2 really relies on volume of missiles spammed.  If you're just using a few, they don't do much.  If you're using enough that harpoons will over-flux the shields of any non-remnant fleet with damage to spare to finish off 60-100 DP of stuff, they will last you a while.

Without fleet limit, you could run SD + DO and have something like 100 buffalo mk 2 all firing 7 missiles, six times per fight.  Enough for millions of damage.  That is not an option w/o modding, however, which is why missile spam builds use stuff like gryphons.  Or I guess you could do awful micro like luring enemy into a colony with them all stashed and add them to your fleet last second before the fight, then stash them again.  That's a bit tortured and cumbersome for my tastes, but vanilla would allow you to far surpass the 30 fleet cap that way if you want.

Quote
In comparison Hound is not a "dirt cheap harasser", it's scrap that you should never have in your fleet because its only role is to get blown up by the player in pirate fleets.

It performs quite competitively in simulated fleet pursuits considering its cost to use it for that?

Quote
@Venture: now here's a bad ship.  Poor dissipation, poor shields/flux pool, poor OP(and you have to pay the Militarized Subsystems tax on top of that) It will quickly fart out whatever few missiles it has thanks to FMR and then become a useless paperweight. Exploration? It absolutely cannot stand up to Berserkers and has base burn of 8 once militarized which is unacceptable for exploring high danger systems for example. No militarization? Say goodbye to all your combat bonuses and enjoy sensor profile of a small moon.

You don't usually militarize these, just roll with the big sensor profile.  It's fast enough with bulk transport.  It doesn't count towards 240 soft cap on scaling skills, but you can throw it into fights anyway now and then.

"Quickly farting out missiles" is its job.  For 14 DP, you get 2 mediums + 2 smalls (with racks + autoloader) or 1 large + 2 smalls.  If you're putting it in play at all for any job other than surveying, it's to blast through that missile volume ASAP and make some ships even more useless than it is w/o (aka dead).
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2025, 09:48:59 AM »

I dunno

Have you tried giving Gemini CARRIER and COMBAT tags?
Honestly I'm shocked Dev didn't give this thing a CARRIER tag considering it literally is a carrier in fleet builder stats

I think CARRIER, COMBAT tags only change eliminate order to fighter strike command. At least i doesn't see any real improvements from it's default state.
no, the COMBAT tag does specifically what you want Gemini to do. It tells the carrier to get into its weapons' range. It will try to use non-PD and missile weapons. If you put Autocannons on Gemini. It will try to get into Autocannon range. And if you put flak cannons and a harpoon pod. It will stay within harpoon pod range

And if you want to remove the automatic escort behaviour from a CARRIER, then you use the tag NO_AUTO_ESCORT or something... You can find it near Legion
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 09:50:48 AM by Killer of Fate »
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Bummelei

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2025, 09:50:17 AM »

@Wayfarer: the best smuggling ship in early game. Frigate sized, no civilian ship sensor profile penalty, highest cargo/DP among all frigates, very generous OP pool which lets you use Insulated Engine Assembly and Expanded Cargo Holds pretty much without compromising any of the combat stats. In comparison Hound is not a "dirt cheap harasser", it's scrap that you should never have in your fleet because its only role is to get blown up by the player in pirate fleets. So is the Cerberus, for that matter.
Why wouldn't you just use both Insulated Engines and Militarized Subsystems on a proper freighter then? Or what's the point of crawling on your belly when you can just press gas pedal to the floor simply outrunning every patrol? It sounds funny when you defending Wayfarer while jumping on Hound, they are both trash on that matter. Also Both Hound and Cerberus have Shielded Cargoholds so you can smuggle space cocaine easily without patrols finding out.

And Mule is not an "anchor" because that's an entirely made-up role that doesn't actually exist in practice. If one of your ships draws a lot of enemy fire it will just die faster, this isn't an MMO.
Nobody says that the anchor should tank the entire enemy team, it just means that the ship is tenacious enough not to die from the first enemy salvo and it is able to hold the line.

@Venture: now here's a bad ship.  Poor dissipation, poor shields/flux pool, poor OP(and you have to pay the Militarized Subsystems tax on top of that) It will quickly fart out whatever few missiles it has thanks to FMR and then become a useless paperweight. Exploration? It absolutely cannot stand up to Berserkers and has base burn of 8 once militarized which is unacceptable for exploring high danger systems for example. No militarization? Say goodbye to all your combat bonuses and enjoy sensor profile of a small moon.
Bulk Transport skill gives it a 9 burn speed, that's enough to outrun skynet's goons in red systems. And you really want 90k utility ship to jump above it's weight, it already have Dram, Tarsus and four Shepherds inside combined in one single ship with cruiser-tier armor and a plenty of missiles. It is good enough. Also with right build it can wipe Berserker 1v1, just stop wasting precious OP on useless MilSys, let it shine like a supernova on the enemy radars. You have no one to fear.
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Bummelei

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2025, 10:08:47 AM »

I dunno

Have you tried giving Gemini CARRIER and COMBAT tags?
Honestly I'm shocked Dev didn't give this thing a CARRIER tag considering it literally is a carrier in fleet builder stats

I think CARRIER, COMBAT tags only change eliminate order to fighter strike command. At least i doesn't see any real improvements from it's default state.
no, the COMBAT tag does specifically what you want Gemini to do. It tells the carrier to get into its weapons' range. It will try to use non-PD and missile weapons. If you put Autocannons on Gemini. It will try to get into Autocannon range. And if you put flak cannons and a harpoon pod. It will stay within harpoon pod range

And if you want to remove the automatic escort behaviour from a CARRIER, then you use the tag NO_AUTO_ESCORT or something... You can find it near Legion
Well it is still overconfident from my experience, but with Flaks it works a lot safer like you said. Unfortunately it is still loses badly against a proper light combat carrier in terms of survivability and speed.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2025, 10:16:24 AM »

it's not overconfident. It's the relative space paradigm

the Gemini is actually positioning perfectly well and reviewing the incoming threat properly. It's just that due to its extremely limited acceleration/deacceleration and max speed stats. It seems as if it's charging into the enemy. When in reality it's trying to run away. But because you are observing the Gemini from its perspective. It seems as if it's going towards the enemy. When in reality the battlefield is moving towards it
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 10:22:53 AM by Killer of Fate »
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Hamsterling

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2025, 10:20:03 AM »

Converted Hangar Mules.

Now your battlefreighter has Broadswords. (Okay, realistically, Talons and a DP increase but it's fun in the early game)

Buffalo MK2s also survive a lot longer if you give it CH and playing them like Condors. As in, stick them as far away from the battleline and let their Talons and missiles do the job.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2025, 10:51:37 AM »

The Wayfarer really is baffling. The League uses them as combat ships in their fleets, but they don't have any weaponry of note. I'm not sure what to do to make them interesting - maybe buff up their flux pool so they be more aggressive with their small mounts? Definitely rework their default autofits to be more threatening. Ideally replace their flares with something more useful; maneuvering thrusters fit the midline lineup and they've already got plenty of PD.

The Gemini is of interest because I don't think the issue is just AI. Even if it were smarter, it'd still have less range than most things and flux stats that don't let it get out of dodge. I'd suggest making it more maneuverable (enough to partially compensate for the issue discussed by others here) and giving it a better flux pool to encourage use of its medium mounts.

The Mule is accurately described here as tanky but not very good at dealing damage. Maybe that's fine, but I don't really see it used once cruisers enter the scene.

Colossus II is meant to be an oversized bomber, burning in with protection from its reinforced armor, unleashing missiles, and then either burning out or dying. The issue is that it's not cheap enough to justify this and not survivable enough to do it reliably besides. I would add built-in blast doors and reinforced bulkheads, reduce its DP to 7 or 8, and maybe redesign its autofit to include makeshift shield generator in order to make use of the extra flux dissipation from SO.

Cerberus is in the worst situation, but I think also the most easily rectifiable. It has decent armament, but its armor is paper-thin, it's too slow to get into or out of combat in a timely manner, and it's a big target. I would add enough armor that it can keep itself alive in early combat, enough speed that it's not frustrating to field, and then either damper field or AAF in place of burn drive, which it hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of getting any kind of value out of.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 10:53:50 AM by Bungee_man »
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Bummelei

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2025, 10:59:57 AM »

it's not overconfident. It's the relative space paradigm

the Gemini is actually positioning perfectly well and reviewing the incoming threat properly. It's just that due to its extremely limited acceleration/deacceleration and max speed stats. It seems as if it's charging into the enemy. When in reality it's trying to run away. But because you are observing the Gemini from its perspective. It seems as if it's going towards the enemy. When in reality the battlefield is moving towards it
Alright alright, not overconfident, just unable to use offensive weaponry in it's current state. I'm just so tilted right now, so i automatically consider all of it "suicide frenzy" shenanigans as a manifestation of his own will.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2025, 11:01:31 AM »

@Bungee_man

There is an idea I have been trying to lobby into the game that involves giving Vanguard, Cerberus, Hound and Wayfarer additional 1k hull durability and 150 armour

But you can reduce the amount of candidates to just Wayfarer and Cerberus

Wayfarer having more armour would open up its flux pool. And allow it for more daring suppression maneuvers. Generally freighters are meant to be more defensive in natures. Take example from Venture, Apogee, Condor, etc.

And keep the flares on Wayfarer. But buff the flares.

It needs its flares to encourage putting missiles on the back. Harpoon is actually viable on a Wayfarer.

Generally the build is like... LAG + LAC, 2 Burst PD, 2 Harpoons or something
Then expanded Missile Racks with its large OP budget
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Bungee_man

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Re: Let's talk about Battlefreighters
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2025, 11:15:25 AM »


There is an idea I have been trying to lobby into the game that involves giving Vanguard, Cerberus, Hound and Wayfarer additional 1k hull durability and 150 armour

I can understand your reasoning on Vanguard, but it's a rough balance to strike. It's plenty durable early on, to the point where more durability would make it painful to fight and a bit excessive to use, but it's still a frigate, and it can't run, so a cruiser comes up to it and devours it later on. I don't know how I'd solve that.

Cerberus definitely needs extra durability or armor; I think it needs some other things in addition to that, though, or it'd just take slightly longer to die as an enemy but still be non-viable in the player's fleet. Wayfarer feels like a relatively fragile midline ship that I wouldn't expect to hull tank, and so could use a boost to flux capacity instead to the same ends.

Hound is already perfectly balanced, I think.

But you can reduce the amount of candidates to just Wayfarer and Cerberus

Quote
And keep the flares on Wayfarer. But buff the flares.

It needs its flares to encourage putting missiles on the back. Harpoon is actually viable on a Wayfarer.

I can see giving the wayfarer a combination of defensive flares and decoy flares. Maybe a rear-mounted medium missile to make harpoons a natural option for sane captains, and encourage not-so-sane ones to put reapers there. That, or built-in missile autoloader to make its rear smalls a problem if it sticks around.

Quote
Generally the build is like... LAG + LAC, 2 Burst PD, 2 Harpoons or something
Then expanded Missile Racks with its large OP budget

I think that'd suit the League better than the current autofit. Not sure if it'd work as well with DEMs.
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