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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 251128 times)

Mishrak

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1095 on: April 22, 2025, 01:27:00 PM »

It seems like an interesting fight at first, but it is just a dps check of how fast you can blow up the fabricator. Enemies are tanky but their dps is not that bad. Basically just slam the Mk.1 into enemy and kill it before it dies.

It gets way harder to do when you don't want to use Onslaught, Mk1, Paragon, Doom, Zigg or Omega weapons.  If you want to try it conventionally or without a powerful flagship, prepare to be frustrated.
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TK3600

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1096 on: April 22, 2025, 01:45:29 PM »

I did further test, and I come to understand why Threat fight feels like such slop. It is the reclaimation swarm. If you kill any enemy too close to the fabricator, it is a free instant revival. Never kill stuff near the fabricator!

1. Unit dies near fabricator.
2. Unit gets reclaimed. Swarm are too durable to be killed.
3. Units gets instantly revived, with the cool down being the travel time between fab and corpse (which is basically instant if died near fab)
4. The rebuilt unit gets 100% hull and armor instantly.
5. If you destroy it again, the hull wreck blocks your line of sight toward fabricator. You are unable to use the gap to harm fabricator.

Repeat step 1.

Fabricators are near immortal if you position destroyed enemy too close to the fabricator. Any thing you killed is instantly revived for free.

Recommendation: change the construction swarm to have a longer cool down, instead of only rely on travel time.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 01:53:43 PM by TK3600 »
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Talgo

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1097 on: April 22, 2025, 02:23:54 PM »

Half of the time, the respawning ships end up creating a huge problem when trying to kill the Fabricators.  They form this wall of crap that soaks fire and often times allows the Fabricators to escape.  One saving grace is if you do kill something big, you can often cause an AoE explosion.  Fun but not reliable at all.
One thing I'd add is that it's very frustrating to go looking for Threat and jump into 4 systems and not find any.  I realize there's a system in place to force them to spawn eventually, but when even the Neutrino detector is hitting you with false signals in there, it feels more tedious than it should be.
Seconding both of these, but especially the bit on finding them. It wasn't at the front of my mind when typing out the rant, but it really adds to my frustration that it's so hard to track down Threat just to learn from them what works and what doesn't. Of all the other "Redacted" factions: Remnants are reliably found in warning beacon systems, with the color of the beacon informing the difficulty to be expected; Omega hang out at two static locations; and Shroud lights offer you three difficulty options. Threat is triple layered gambling; you have to find an abyssal gravity well, that rogue system needs to have threat in it, and if there is Threat in it, it could be a Second Strike, it could be a Third Strike, it could be one Third and two Seconds, and so on. I've yet to encounter a First Strike beyond the quest which introduces them, I don't know if that was a one-off or what.

I suppose it would dampen the mystique a lot to have them become yet another predictable enemy to farm at-will, but man, I've fought them a few times and still feel like I'm not learning anything.


It seems like an interesting fight at first, but it is just a dps check of how fast you can blow up the fabricator. Enemies are tanky but their dps is not that bad. Basically just slam the Mk.1 into enemy and kill it before it dies.
It's definitely beatable, I just don't personally find it an enjoyable or exciting experience. The implied counterplay being blocked away just adds to the problem. In theory, it looks like there should be plenty of ways to defeat Threat: You could build a sturdy battle line and grind them down, killing off adds and denying the resources they drop until the Fabricator has nothing left to work with. Except the resource swarms are too durable and almost always escape. You could take personal control in a fast, alpha strike assassin ship and smoke Overseers to let your fleet fight through weakened enemies. Except the Overseer is quite sturdy in its own right, destroying it doesn't expose any vulnerabilities it just denies additional strength, and the Fabricator will make another right away. So, deep bench attack+move strategy it is, I guess.
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Selfcontrol

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1098 on: April 22, 2025, 02:55:42 PM »

About finding Threat fleets, you guys might just had bad RNGs. My systems are 90% INFESTED with Threat fleets. Now I do go deep into the Abyss, but I really don't need to look out for them. There's almost too much of them. Also, I never needed to use the Neutrino Detector : at least one Threat fleet is always in range of an Active Sensor Burst. I jump in, launch an Active Sensor Burst and if it doesn't find anything, I get out and find a next system.

As for the overall design of the Threat, I don't have the same experience as you guys do. I agree that it's a bit of a DPS check and you need to be reasonably aggressive against them, but the Threat being way more passive and slowler than the Remnants, I found that they allow more freedom for building your fleet. The Remnants, being very fast, suicidal and their strength coming from their raw stats and AI cores, are far more of a DPS check than the Threat. And I do appreciate that, for once, a player-piloted Afflictor is not an easy solution to a fight (it's still viable, but it requires better piloting).

I do agree that Reclamation Swarms are a tad too resilient though. I get that just staying behind and shooting at Reclamation Swarms isn't something that Alex wants to encourage (although it is possible according to at least one person on this site who manages to do it with a Gemini / Rampart fleet), but even with good PD weapons they are difficult to take down. Even shooting at them with all your weapons (except capital-grade firepower) is often not enough which is frustrating.

EDIT : One critic I do have against the Threat (that you guys also said) is that killing ships which are being constructed restore too easily a Fabricator's CR. I found that the last push against the Fabricators tend to become a bit of slog because of that. Ships being constructed and dying before completion should at least not restore as much CR to a Fabricator as completed and active ships. I did find out that capturing objectives tend to lure some Threat ships away and it helps a bit, but not by a lot.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 03:32:00 PM by Selfcontrol »
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ChaseBears

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1099 on: April 22, 2025, 03:04:50 PM »

I really like fighting the Threat, personally.  They're cool guys. I especially like that the Hives do these periodic swarm storms at long range; reminds me of the days when Pilums would fill the screen.  But they definitely have some frustrations. 

Re: the Overseers.  They've got the armor of an Enforcer and the speed of a Hammerhead, and never stop whipping what's effectively an ion beam at you.  Their shields are inefficient but they don't have much else to spend flux on.  (Well, kinda hard to tell if the Lash generates flux.) Yeah, they're difficult targets.  While its not necessarily the case that the Threat should be solved by learning to just shoot the Overseers, its kind of annoying that you effectively can't interact with this mechanic. It's simply impractical to ever kill the Overseers first, such that its meaningless outside of lore/aesthetics that they activate ship systems for the other ships.

One possible way to make that work is set it up so Overseers don't get fabricated at all.  A Threat fleet has as many Overseers as it starts with.  In that scenario, they might be hard to kill, but every one you nail attrits the effectiveness of the entire Strike.  On the other hand, it'd be kind of lame if none of the Threat could activate their systems anymore.  Maybe something like they are very, very slow to fabricate compared to other ships.  Another option is to make Overseer fabrication part of scalable difficulty. Imagine two kinds of fabricators;  the regular ones can build everything except Overseers, while the 'pristine' fabricators can build Overseers as well but only show up in Third Strikes.  Second Strikes would have to make do with the Overseers they start with.  Tie the highest end Threat loot to those super fabricators and you got your risk:reward right there.

I haven't had as hard of a time dealing with the swarms returning to the fabricator as a lot of people but it is pretty impressive how hard they are to kill.  It doesn't help that usually a destroyed ship is trying to back off, so their wreckage naturally floats back towards the fabricator, and then the swarms form on the far side of the wreckage.  I often up end literally chasing wreckage with movement abilities to set myself up to take out the swarms.  Also, perhaps the reason 1-fabricator fleets are disproportionately difficult to deal with is that all the newly spawned ships form literal walls around the one fabricator rather than being spread out among multiple ships, and the wall just gets replenished very quickly if you destroy a ship under construction.

Quote
One thing I'd add is that it's very frustrating to go looking for Threat and jump into 4 systems and not find any.  I realize there's a system in place to force them to spawn eventually, but when even the Neutrino detector is hitting you with false signals in there, it feels more tedious than it should be.
Feels like sometimes they just spawn too far away. I've found Threat that didn't show up in initial pings by doing an active scanning pattern around the rock.  Although maybe that's the system you are referring to, I'm unfamiliar with it.

Quote
As for the overall design of the Threat, I don't have the same experience as you guys do. I agree that it's a bit of a DPS check and you need to be reasonably aggressive against them, but the Threat being way more passive and slowler than the Remnants, I found that they allow more freedom for building your fleet. The Remnants, being very fast, suicidal and their strength coming from their raw stats and AI cores, are far more of a DPS check than the Threat. And I do appreciate that, for once, a player-piloted Afflictor is not an easy solution to a fight (it's still viable, but it requires better piloting).
Idk, Assault Units are a pretty straightforward DPS check.  You will eventually get attrited by them if you can't either destroy them immediately or have the ability to press in on the fabricator.  Or maybe if you're only fielding ships that can shield tank them through a whole Incursion Mode activation.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 03:38:38 PM by ChaseBears »
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Selfcontrol

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1100 on: April 22, 2025, 03:10:44 PM »

Quote
Idk, Assault Units are a pretty straightforward DPS check.  You will eventually get attrited to them by them if you can't either destroy them immediately or have the ability to press in on the fabricator.

Yeah, but it's one specific ship and its aggression meter depends on its ship system being active or not. Meanwhile, the whole Remnant fleet tries to hug me, all ships at once.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1101 on: April 22, 2025, 03:28:34 PM »

Re: the Overseers.  They've got the armor of an Enforcer and the speed of a Hammerhead, and never stop whipping what's effectively an ion beam at you.  Their shields are inefficient but they don't have much else to spend flux on.  (Well, kinda hard to tell if the Lash generates flux.) Yeah, they're difficult targets.  While its not necessarily the case that the Threat should be solved by learning to just shoot the Overseers, its kind of annoying that you effectively can't interact with this mechanic. It's simply impractical to ever kill the Overseers first, such that its meaningless outside of lore/aesthetics that they activate ship systems for the other ships.

(Hmm. In my experience it's been situationally possible to take some of them out, but I suspect that depends on the sort of ship you're flying. And as you say, it shouldn't be so easy as that just becomes "how you fight Threat".)


Maybe something like they are very, very slow to fabricate compared to other ships.

They do, actually, have a substantially longer fabrication time than other units! Perhaps insufficiently so, but yeah the overall idea is that taking out an Overseer means a little something to the overall battle, more so than taking out another type of unit. So we're on the same page in terms of what the design *should* be, at any rate :)

I do want to say, I appreciate all the feedback here! As much playtesting as we've done with Threat stuff, it's still just a drop in the bucket.
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Firestone

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1102 on: April 22, 2025, 04:02:54 PM »


Half of the time, the respawning ships end up creating a huge problem when trying to kill the Fabricators.  They form this wall of crap that soaks fire and often times allows the Fabricators to escape.  One saving grace is if you do kill something big, you can often cause an AoE explosion.  Fun but not reliable at all.

I hadn't really considered the visibility angle, but now that you mention it, it makes total sense.  The sea of fragments from the Hives is especially crazy to deal with.  What do I shield? all of it  We can't even see the Void Blaster very well, but we can hear it at least.

One thing I'd add is that it's very frustrating to go looking for Threat and jump into 4 systems and not find any.  I realize there's a system in place to force them to spawn eventually, but when even the Neutrino detector is hitting you with false signals in there, it feels more tedious than it should be.

I was going to write a bigger feedback post about this, but I think you said much of what I was thinking wrt Threat.

The swarm were spawn a few moments after the ship was destroyed and at that time it flew out of no where or is behind the line of battle. To be frank I didn't pay too much attention to them since once I push up to the fab, the fab was overwhelmed by my omega missiles and maybe the swarms were killed by motors.

The missiles of Threat were distinct enough, neutron torpedo is a glowing white, keltic fragments were in white group, seeker fragments is yellow, and the one with Tons of EMP looks like a white dwarf, but it is true that if without enough anti-air defense I would simply shield/phase clock to prevent them hitting my hull.

Spoiler
It is lucky to see that the voltaic cannon is only on Overseer and Line unit which does not regenerate ammo quickly, tried to put one on the Assault unit and it could fire at least one shot in the duration of the system and the result is that it made an Onslaught completely neutralized before disabling the ship.
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The projectiles of void blaster travel at 5000su/s it is like those Lance that hit immediately

Try to use active sensor burst, I heard from my fellows that this is the action that spawns a threat fleet (and then when I jump in, hit 3, I saw three groups of unidentified sensor contact at around 1 unit form the planet position and immediately I know I'm in great trouble)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 04:21:54 PM by Firestone »
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Talgo

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1103 on: April 22, 2025, 04:06:14 PM »

The reward for removing an Overseer from play is just not reflective of the risk taken to kill it instead of the units it escorts. I've experienced a risk-reward support unit mechanic in other games, two off the top of my head are Sectoid Mind Merges in XCOM 2012, and Tyranid Synapse creatures in Space Marine 2. In XCOM, a Sectoid casting Mind Merge buffs the stats of another Sectoid, but if you move a soldier to a more aggressive position and kill the caster, the recipient dies too. In Space Marine 2, if you run past the swarms of lesser creatures and kill the Synapse creature controlling them, the lesser enemies drop dead. In both of these cases, you're rewarded for prioritizing a specific target.

I'm not suggesting that killing Overseers ought to do anything so drastic as destroying other Threat units, but in contrast to the above two games, killing an Overseer feels like nothing. There's no thrill or relief to be felt, because nothing has been accomplished. I would have never guessed that they take longer to rebuild than the others, because every Threat fleet I have fought has been completely swamped with the things. The danger of a potentially endless battle is kind of the Threat's whole shtick, and I wouldn't want to see that changed, but in their present form the moment to moment gameplay feels like wading through molasses.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1104 on: April 22, 2025, 04:40:46 PM »

The reward for removing an Overseer from play is just not reflective of the risk taken to kill it instead of the units it escorts. I've experienced a risk-reward support unit mechanic in other games, two off the top of my head are Sectoid Mind Merges in XCOM 2012, and Tyranid Synapse creatures in Space Marine 2. In XCOM, a Sectoid casting Mind Merge buffs the stats of another Sectoid, but if you move a soldier to a more aggressive position and kill the caster, the recipient dies too. In Space Marine 2, if you run past the swarms of lesser creatures and kill the Synapse creature controlling them, the lesser enemies drop dead. In both of these cases, you're rewarded for prioritizing a specific target.

I'm not suggesting that killing Overseers ought to do anything so drastic as destroying other Threat units, but in contrast to the above two games, killing an Overseer feels like nothing. There's no thrill or relief to be felt, because nothing has been accomplished. I would have never guessed that they take longer to rebuild than the others, because every Threat fleet I have fought has been completely swamped with the things. The danger of a potentially endless battle is kind of the Threat's whole shtick, and I wouldn't want to see that changed, but in their present form the moment to moment gameplay feels like wading through molasses.

Hmm - I mean, it's certainly possible that there are too many of them, that's definitely something that could be tuned. It's also very much possible to blow some of them up without a ton of risk, it just depends on the tactical situation. E.G I just tried a battle and got like 3 of them basically for free, and it definitely mattered in terms of helping my fleet push the Threat and take down the Fabricators.


@Mishrak: btw, finally had a chance to fight against a "many Hives and Overseets" fleet, that was a fun experience, haha. So many missiles! Managed to do it with my Eagles/Odyssey fleet with some minor losses. Was interesting trying to time the fragment missile waves from the Hives and make sure shields/getting away was an option at the right moment.

Spoiler


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TK3600

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1105 on: April 22, 2025, 05:05:55 PM »

It appears Rao Orcus no mission bug is not fixed in 0.98 RC8, at least for saves made in earlier version. I met Rao in RC8 though.
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TheEmperor32810

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1106 on: April 22, 2025, 05:10:40 PM »

null pointer error for buying off the tri tach mercs still exists
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TK3600

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1107 on: April 22, 2025, 05:11:40 PM »

Speaking of things the AI doesn't use well, the Retribution definitely needs a buff - they get eviscerated in the first few seconds of any fight against the Luddic Church. Even piloted well, it's not the equal of SO Aurora or Odyssey, though.
I've generally found the Retribution to be an amazingly un-useful ship... ...Prior to 0.98. Now I have one with 2x each of Kinetic, Seeker, and Unstable Fragment missile systems, and it actually works pretty well.
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1x Storm Needler, 2x Heavy Mass Driver, 2x Heavy Mauler, 2x Hellbore, 7x Vulcan, aforementioned missile systems, 55 vents, fragment swarm, resistant flux conduits, hardened shields, armored weapon mounts, s-modded solar shielding (still haven't decided what else to s-mod on it, but it works okay as is).
Officer is level 7 with elite Impact Mitigation, Target Analysis, Missile Specialization, Ballistic Mastery, Polarized Armor, and non-elite damage control and gunnery implants. (I've been considering swapping elite tag from Polarized Armor to Damage Control, but haven't done it yet.)
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As for Threat... Shield the yellow missiles, they're fairly obvious. EMP is annoyingly white-like-everything-else, though. As for tactics... I've had fairly good effect with setting my fleet at the farthest nav point from the fabricators and then bringing my flagship (currently a neural-linked radiant) around to assassinate them. Has trouble with three fabricator fleets, though; my Radiant build is a general-purpose one rather than a missile-heavy burst-damage build and it generally takes two passes per fabricator so there can be CR issues. Still, calling a full retreat after the last fabricator is down is... probably actually faster than my usual mop up the rest of the fleet.

This is a great strategy, because anything you kill at furthest point will die for sure. If you lure those ship away from fabricator, you may interdict the swarm from reaching the fab. Thus avoiding the "infinite regen corpse wall" effect that protects the fab. Anything fab make will consume CR. If you do it normally, you will find fab surrounded with ships. And any ship that die near fabricator will get instantly reclaimed, and their replacement reconstructed instantly.

Another observation is their PD is really good. I thought bomber spam would be a counter to the armor spam, but they gets blocked reliably. When I see the stats on their PD, it dont feel very strong, but it works really well in practice.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 05:20:25 PM by TK3600 »
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Bungee_man

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1108 on: April 22, 2025, 05:20:29 PM »

Personally, I like the Threat, but I agree that three fab fleets are a little too easy right now, and that things respawn a little too fast in close quarters. I think you could solve both by buffing Threat ships across the board, but adjusting the fabricator economy so that, while they can build their first fleet out at the same rate, things take longer to spawn in afterwards.

Basically, kills two birds with ones stone - makes smaller numbers of Threat ships dangerous enough that having some DP taken up by more fabricators doesn't cripple their effectiveness, makes fabricator respawn time slow enough that having many fabricators is of real use in keeping numbers up in sustained, high-intensity combat.
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TK3600

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1109 on: April 22, 2025, 05:21:39 PM »

Personally, I like the Threat, but I agree that three fab fleets are a little too easy right now, and that things respawn a little too fast in close quarters. I think you could solve both by buffing Threat ships across the board, but adjusting the fabricator economy so that, while they can build their first fleet out at the same rate, things take longer to spawn in afterwards.

Basically, kills two birds with ones stone - makes smaller numbers of Threat ships dangerous enough that having some DP taken up by more fabricators doesn't cripple their effectiveness, makes fabricator respawn time slow enough that having many fabricators is of real use in keeping numbers up in sustained, high-intensity combat.
So I am not crazy for thinking triple fab is actually easier than double fab.
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