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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.98a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 251120 times)

Mishrak

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #300 on: February 14, 2025, 09:49:40 AM »

  • Eagle (LG): added built-in Energy Bolt Coherer, reduced OP by 11
  • Falcon (LG): added built-in Energy Bolt Coherer, reduced OP by 8
  • Sunder (LG): added built-in Energy Bolt Coherer, reduced OP by 9

I feel like EBC should be 200 across the board, not just for remnants. Or at least scale back on the OP reductions. I understand the lore reason why, but these ships already suffered from a gameplay perspective.

200 base range is way too strong.  Alex definitely doesn't want the LG Ships to be strictly better than their midline/XIV counterparts.  But I'm in complete agreement that the ships were already in a weird place and while EBC is a benefit, losing 20/17/15 OP respectively is staggering.

Also why are those OP values not based on the hull size?  The two cruisers have a diferent EBC price and the destroyer has a value that exceeds a cruiser.
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Toxcity

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #301 on: February 14, 2025, 09:58:18 AM »

I think the OP values Alex posted aren't consecutive with the solar shielding OP reduction; it's just how much OP they'll lose compared to the base hull in 0.98.

I don't see how making the Coherer buff 200 for the LG ships would be out of line. The 200 base range would only apply to non-beam energy weapons and come with an OP reduction. Minus [SUPER ALABASTER] weapons, it'd just bring energy projectile weapon ranges inline with their ballistic counterparts.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 10:01:30 AM by Toxcity »
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #302 on: February 14, 2025, 10:09:12 AM »

+Base anything is very strong because ITU will increase according to the base value plus what Coherer added.
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ClownSociety

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #303 on: February 14, 2025, 10:16:00 AM »


200 base range is way too strong.  Alex definitely doesn't want the LG Ships to be strictly better than their midline/XIV counterparts.  But I'm in complete agreement that the ships were already in a weird place and while EBC is a benefit, losing 20/17/15 OP respectively is staggering.

Also why are those OP values not based on the hull size?  The two cruisers have a diferent EBC price and the destroyer has a value that exceeds a cruiser.

I do not think these ships would be strictly better than their counterparts, in fact even with EBC at 200 range they're still worse due to the lack of OP and flux on these ships. Most projectile energy weapons in the game require large amounts of flux to be used effectively, which the Falcon and Eagle sorely lack. The Sunder LG with only 90 op to work with will struggle to fit the conventional builds used for the normal version.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #304 on: February 14, 2025, 10:49:03 AM »

It's worth noting that it's literally impossible for the devs to present political entities in media without making some kind of political statement.  If any entity is presented as a functional state, that's a political statement.  If that entity has flaws due to its organizational structure, that's a political statement.  Keeping the entities vague and undefined enough to avoid making a political statement would make the factions very nebulous and/or really basic caricatures/tropes.  If you want to make an interesting setting or story that involves political entities in any way, there's going to be politics.

The other big thing is that like any good character in fiction, it's the flaws that make the political entity interesting.  In interactive fiction like video games, it even opens up room for the player to engage with and even change the world in ways that are far more engaging.  Like say, if the player can play kingmaker, much like in the Nexx mod, and choose which of these flawed factions offers the best future to the sector.  Maybe each faction has one central issue that a player who's joined them with a commission could resolve via a quest chain and make that faction clearly a better choice for the future of the sector.  Like helping the Church eliminate its Pather support elements.  Or get a bill of rights put into force in the Persean League.  Something where the player personally helps change the sector for the better.
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Chumbosity

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #305 on: February 14, 2025, 11:52:51 AM »

I think the OP values Alex posted aren't consecutive with the solar shielding OP reduction; it's just how much OP they'll lose compared to the base hull in 0.98.
They are on top of the OP reduction for having Solar Shielding, as Alex has confirmed in this post earlier in the thread. The LG Eagle will have 135 OP, the LG Falcon 108 OP, and the LG Sunder 90 OP. The standard, non-LG versions of those hulls have 155, 125, and 105 respectively.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #306 on: February 14, 2025, 11:57:44 AM »

I have to say that it was a pretty good run that it took over a decade before open political discussion broke out. I suppose it wasn't that strange, given that it took about a decade for some story content to drop...

Yeah it's a game tho
Real life has this one advantage that, unlike fiction, it doesn't have to be believable.

Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #307 on: February 14, 2025, 12:37:13 PM »

I think the OP values Alex posted aren't consecutive with the solar shielding OP reduction; it's just how much OP they'll lose compared to the base hull in 0.98.
They are on top of the OP reduction for having Solar Shielding, as Alex has confirmed in this post earlier in the thread. The LG Eagle will have 135 OP, the LG Falcon 108 OP, and the LG Sunder 90 OP. The standard, non-LG versions of those hulls have 155, 125, and 105 respectively.
So minus 20 OP for the eagle, minus 17 for the eagle, and minus 15 for sunder in exchange for half-cost built in Solar Shielding and Bolt coherer?
Did some math (i am bad at math so maybe i messed up somewhere.) and on the eagle it is 5 for the solar shielding and 15 for the coherer so the coherer it's costed the same as a ITU/Adv optics/Ballistic rangefinder I suppose that is an alright cost for a hullmod of that kind? On the falcon and the sunder though it costs 12 and is throwing me off.
I know it is a non-modular hullmod so special criteria is expected to happen but right now i have no idea what is what makes coherer cost more or less.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #308 on: February 14, 2025, 12:59:15 PM »


200 base range is way too strong.

Is it? There's a reason nobody uses the weapons it affects on these ships under normal circumstances. How often do you see an APL Sunder, or a heavy blaster Eagle? Would extra range really make the difference, even so? If it did end up being OP, I'd be in favor of just balancing it out by making special modifications nonremovable, and maybe adjusting the Executor's stats to compensate, which would have the added benefit of removing the awkward situation where one capital costs twice as much as the others to get to baseline performance.

I think the +200 range would still leave them as less useful than their base hulls, but there's potential for fun (if suboptimal) builds. +100 range doesn't do much of anything, which leaves interesting gameplay options on the table.



It's worth noting that it's literally impossible for the devs to present political entities in media without making some kind of political statement.  If any entity is presented as a functional state, that's a political statement. 

I don't think that holds up. "Any entity that holds onto a desirable, highly-contested position for several decades must be competent enough to have done so" is a tautology, not a political statement. Besides that, a game is a game, and interfactional balance is the standard for the sake of maximizing gameplay options - a product of the medium. There are certainly some schools of thought in which everything that doesn't explicitly go to lengths to prioritize affirming political group X is equally political for not having done so, but there are good reasons why most ordinary people don't consider that claim valid.

Quote
choose which of these flawed factions offers the best future to the sector. 

I think that's an interesting idea - I think most people agree on this. The reason the Diktat is such a common point of discussion is that it's treated much different from the other morally grey or black factions. Tri-Tachyon may be genocidal drug peddlers at their worst, but their ships are usable, and the problems with their society are (realistically) more prevalent in the qualitative interactions with their characters than in the products of their engineers and researchers.
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Mishrak

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #309 on: February 14, 2025, 01:08:58 PM »


200 base range is way too strong.

Is it? There's a reason nobody uses the weapons it affects on these ships under normal circumstances. How often do you see an APL Sunder, or a heavy blaster Eagle? Would extra range really make the difference, even so? If it did end up being OP, I'd be in favor of just balancing it out by making special modifications nonremovable, and maybe adjusting the Executor's stats to compensate, which would have the added benefit of removing the awkward situation where one capital costs twice as much as the others to get to baseline performance.

I think the +200 range would still leave them as less useful than their base hulls, but there's potential for fun (if suboptimal) builds. +100 range doesn't do much of anything, which leaves interesting gameplay options on the table.


I'd love to see it at 200 range personally.  APL being 900 base with ITU, Escort Package and GI (1.75) puts it at 1,575 vs 1400 with 800 Base.

It's hard to really say what's OP and what's balanced.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #310 on: February 14, 2025, 01:34:25 PM »

I think that's an interesting idea - I think most people agree on this. The reason the Diktat is such a common point of discussion is that it's treated much different from the other morally grey or black factions. Tri-Tachyon may be genocidal drug peddlers at their worst, but their ships are usable, and the problems with their society are (realistically) more prevalent in the qualitative interactions with their characters than in the products of their engineers and researchers.
The Dictate is the hardest one to give some redeeming factor or quest chain that would improve them to make them look like they're bringing something good to the sector as a whole.  The random idea I had some time ago was to give them a colonization quest chain.  Where they work to resolve the mass overcrowding on Sindria by setting up colonies or fund terraforming projects.  Have them be actually willing to put up the money to start growing humanity outside of the core again and reclaim lost systems.  Their goals are to exploit raw resources and bring in more funds for their military and improve regime security at home, but it says something if they're the only one of the major factions actually recolonizing.
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Chumbosity

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #311 on: February 14, 2025, 02:20:09 PM »

I think the OP values Alex posted aren't consecutive with the solar shielding OP reduction; it's just how much OP they'll lose compared to the base hull in 0.98.
They are on top of the OP reduction for having Solar Shielding, as Alex has confirmed in this post earlier in the thread. The LG Eagle will have 135 OP, the LG Falcon 108 OP, and the LG Sunder 90 OP. The standard, non-LG versions of those hulls have 155, 125, and 105 respectively.
So minus 20 OP for the eagle, minus 17 for the eagle, and minus 15 for sunder in exchange for half-cost built in Solar Shielding and Bolt coherer?
Did some math (i am bad at math so maybe i messed up somewhere.) and on the eagle it is 5 for the solar shielding and 15 for the coherer so the coherer it's costed the same as a ITU/Adv optics/Ballistic rangefinder I suppose that is an alright cost for a hullmod of that kind? On the falcon and the sunder though it costs 12 and is throwing me off.
I know it is a non-modular hullmod so special criteria is expected to happen but right now i have no idea what is what makes coherer cost more or less.
LG ships pay full cost for their Solar Shielding, not half cost. Solar Shielding costs 3/6/9/15 OP based on size; LG Centurion loses 3 OP over baseline, Sunder in the current version loses 6 OP, Eagle & Falcon in the current version lose 9 OP, and the Executor loses 15 OP compared to the Pegasus it's based on.

The OP cost LG ships have to pay for their Energy Bolt Coherer is largely dependent on the quantity & quality of their energy / hybrid mounts, and possibly hull size to an extent. The LG Falcon can fit 4 medium energies & 4 small energies, whereas the LG Eagle can fit 5 & 5 respectively, so the Eagle pays 3 more OP for its EBC. The LG Sunder can fit 1 large energy, 2 medium energies, and 3 small energies. Not as many mounts compared to the Falcon, but with a large mount they're arguably better, so it pays 1 more OP for its EBC. It also pays more for its EBC than the LG Hammerhead: the LG Hammerhead loses 10 OP compared to the baseline, 6 for Solar Shielding, 4 for the EBC. It can also only fit 2 medium energies & 4 small energies, which is less than what a Falcon can bring. If anything, the LG Hammerhead gets its EBC at a premium compared to the LG Falcon, as it loses out on 2 medium energies to use the EBC while paying 4 less OP for it, and it also has High Energy Focus to make more efficient use of those slots.

There are two definitive outliers, however. Both the Executor and the LG Centurion get their EBC for free. The Executor, as mentioned, only loses out on 15 OP compared to the Pegasus that it is based on, which is entirely accounted for by Solar Shielding. The LG Centurion only loses 3 OP compared to its baseline, which is also entirely accounted for by Solar Shielding. Honestly, it might be the best at actually making use of the EBC among the LG ships, as the weapons it applies to are much more competitive with other options in the small slot. Antimatter Blasters, Ion Cannons, even IR Pulse Lasers are pretty solid weapons to get a base 100 range boost on for free.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #312 on: February 14, 2025, 05:05:30 PM »

The Dictate is the hardest one to give some redeeming factor or quest chain that would improve them to make them look like they're bringing something good to the sector as a whole.  The random idea I had some time ago was to give them a colonization quest chain.  Where they work to resolve the mass overcrowding on Sindria by setting up colonies or fund terraforming projects.  Have them be actually willing to put up the money to start growing humanity outside of the core again and reclaim lost systems.  Their goals are to exploit raw resources and bring in more funds for their military and improve regime security at home, but it says something if they're the only one of the major factions actually recolonizing.

If I were giving an idealized portrayal of each faction's preferred future for the sector, it might look like this:

Hegemony: Straightforward - they reconnect with the Domain by some means, and the sector sees the return of material plentifulness beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Orders of magnitude more resources than anyone wants, technology well past what anyone can imagine, the eradication of crime and terrorism, at least at the present scale. Alternatively, they fail to reconnect with the Domain, but nonetheless restore order to the sector, bring a normal way of life to the most poor or tyrannical markets, and ease up on excessive authoritarian tendencies once the threats that provoke them are gone.

Tri-Tachyon: Without anyone attempting to impose themselves on anyone else, people are free to live however they like, so long as their means permit it - whether that means drug-fueled all night raves, or lavishly-funded research projects aimed at better understanding the world's mysteries. Standard of living improves, as resources are allocated according to demand rather than according to the needs of a ruling regime, and scientists, captains, and officers are able to rise to the level of their ability, regardless of their station in life, so long as they are bold enough to risk whatever they might already have for the opportunity to prove themselves.

Persean League: With ambitious or expansionist polities subdued, a sector-wide era of peace between a diverse range of sub-governments is established. Pacts allowing emigration between worlds (so long as the recipient government is on board) mitigates the excesses of the sector's worse planets, while the lack of a shared adversary to point to as justification mitigates the influence of Kazeron and the gens. Everyone can find a home that suits their dreams and personality, and a memory of past potential for corporate, theocratic, or military despotism unites the disparate nations of the sector, ensuring that, despite their differences, they remain willing to collaborate in the interest of free and secure exchange of goods and ideas.

Sindrian Diktat: While other polities looked to either reaction, an idealized past, or simple greed to guide their decisions, the Sindrian Diktat was untethered to the pre-collapse world, and could, under competent leadership, provide a clear blueprint for the extended future. Rather than responding to issues as they arose, with no overarching plan in mind save for broad, vague, and unlikely hope of a technological, spiritual, or political breakthrough, the Diktat reorganizes the sector as a self-reliant and cohesive polity. Scientists, rather than embarking on dangerous, egotistical, or megalomaniacal flights of fancy, are directed towards avenues in which their work will be most useful and most appreciated, and exceptional individuals are identified and routed towards mutually beneficial lines of work. The poor, rather than being an obligation to be (reluctantly) tolerated and (barely) sustained (as under the Hegemony) or a resource to be exploited and exhausted (as under Tri-Tachyon), are given shared identity as Perseans, and a part in both the effort towards a reborn sector in which everyone has clarity of purpose, and the pride therein.

Luddic Church: Life on the most hellish industrial planets of the sector is gradually restored to a livable state, as industry is pared down and colonization efforts identify new habitable worlds to be settled. Religious efforts give hope to the previously hopeless, and purpose to the previously purposeless. Moreover, a universal set of beliefs instilling care for one's neighbors surroundings ensures that the violence and industrial blight of the past will not return. Human life revolves around the situations it evolved to handle - small communities, meaningful, physical work, and immersion in the natural world, which might otherwise have been lost to all but a handful of the luckiest or most driven individuals. A token church-military peacekeeping force prevents resurgence of piracy and handles the transit of goods between worlds where local production or doing without is impossible.
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Draba

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #313 on: February 14, 2025, 05:31:58 PM »


200 base range is way too strong.

Is it? There's a reason nobody uses the weapons it affects on these ships under normal circumstances. How often do you see an APL Sunder, or a heavy blaster Eagle? Would extra range really make the difference, even so? If it did end up being OP, I'd be in favor of just balancing it out by making special modifications nonremovable, and maybe adjusting the Executor's stats to compensate, which would have the added benefit of removing the awkward situation where one capital costs twice as much as the others to get to baseline performance.

I think the +200 range would still leave them as less useful than their base hulls, but there's potential for fun (if suboptimal) builds. +100 range doesn't do much of anything, which leaves interesting gameplay options on the table.

I also think 200 bonus on all ships might be worth a try:
  • Executor with beams seems to be much stronger than gigacannon+pulse or anything involving autopulse.
    This one is where the +200 base range is most likely to be too much, but IMO it'd still not reach HIL+autolance level.
  • Sunder with 900 range Ls and/or 800 range pulse lasers does look good, but again the loadout is competing with beams.
    Sunder is already pretty fragile and tight on OP, LG variant loses 15 OP and has to go closer so seems fine.
    Worth mentioning that Hammerhead has noticeably better durability: gains more for each point in caps/vents and also has more spare OP than base Sunder, much more than LG Sunder.
  • Eagle/Falcon This is where it gets interesting! Ballistics (mostly kinetic) in the hybrids are probably best, combined with pulse lasers+mining blasters.
    The competitor is phase lances+more flux in kinetics(possibly with builtin armored mounts), advanced optics cost is roughly the same as the total OP hit for LG.
    IMO ion cannon would be the only non-PD weapon worth using in S energy, maybe IR pulse to make room for more mining blasters in M.
If nothing else coherer could be +200 range for S/M, and +100 for L.
Changes nothing for remnants, keeps Executor/Sunder in check, gives an alternative for Eagle/Falcon.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 06:32:00 PM by Draba »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Starsector 0.98a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #314 on: February 15, 2025, 03:29:26 AM »


It's like CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein: CS Lewis intentionally wrote a 1:1 parable of Christ:Aslan in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. His intent was basically "Jesus for Kids". JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is not a parable (and he was quite insistent on that point), but it does contain a lot of ideas that were bouncing around in his head that were important to him, including a somewhat Christ-like sacrifice-and-return in Gandalf, a lot to do with Catholic morality and theology, a ton of linguistics and early British mythology, and a lot to do with his experience of World War 1 and its loss and trauma.

I hope to be doing something closer in shape to LOTR than LWW.

I think that's the best way to do things, though, for the record, I love both authors.

The Luddic Church, for example, isn't a commentary on religion being good or bad, or correct or incorrect, it's a group of people with understandable motivation and beliefs who might act similar to groups X, Y, and Z in real life because any realistic fictional character/group will resemble real people/groups in some way.
Luddic Church is a somewhat subtle statement on the fact that groups tend to unify against oppression in order to grant themselves protection. Only to eventually turn into oppressors themselves. Unable to cope with their own fallacy. And generally Luddic Church behaviour can be applicable to not only faith-based organisations.

Spoiler
It's an utterly manipulative superstate that desires to control its population through technological restrictions. Knowing full well, just like the Domain, that a society given the tools to prosper will eventually figure out alternative ways of existence. That aren't necessary in line with the enforced dogma.

The whole Luddic Church thing is just a facade invented for indoctrination. Justification of extremely immoral actions. Like banishment of people, total war or in the case of Pathers, genocide. And it's also hugely ironic. Considering even the lore itself states that...

Spoiler
[close]

With Ludd either being a non-existent figure or possibly a figure that would disown the Luddic Chuch for its extremely totalitarian practices. Which the hole point of his existence was to revolt against.

And this ultimately also being a reference (intentional or not) to the way how Christian Church operated. Being based of an ultimately pacifist figure. But in spite of that. Becoming a regime that aimed to control, dominate and enslave. For example by acquiring the populations of pagans a good deal thousand years ago. Against their will.

Spoiler
[close]
[close]
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