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Author Topic: Starfarer 0.53a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 368113 times)

Cosmitz

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #405 on: July 11, 2012, 01:52:44 PM »

All items that we have no perceptible experience on how they work and how gameplay is affected by them. We'll see and feedback as appropriate once we get first-hand knowledge. But we do know and can compare and analyze the issue of removing the flux-raise-functionality.
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naufrago

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #406 on: July 11, 2012, 02:18:59 PM »

Well, there's a topic over in the suggestions forum about redesigning the High-Energy Focus that's somewhat related to this. It's meant to solve a different issue, but part of the re-design is basically giving the active part of the system the same flux-raising functionality that the 'F' key currently gives.

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3387.0
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Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #407 on: July 11, 2012, 02:25:07 PM »

However, it can be EXTREMELY (I cannot stress it enough) useful to beam weapons - just because you need that few points of damage to break enemy ship's flux dissipation and start building up his flux. Best example? High Intensity Laser - some may say it's not worth anything, but it has low OP cost, very good range, and low flux. You can stay out of Dominator's range all the time, and slowly build up his flux, thanks to increasing your damage via F key (provided you have two HILs of course - one is still not enough).

Regardless of ship attacked, ability to increase your damage output is very valuable when used with beam weapons - it essentialy helps overcome their biggest problem which is soft flux buildup. It doesn't make a tactical laser an anti-capital weapon, but it gets you the edge needed. While exposing you to an overload, of course.

That is my opinion on the subject, and while I understand this decision, I do not agree with it.

Honestly, to me that's more of an argument for remove the feature. If it's most useful to facilitate the kind of kiting that beam weapons aren't supposed to be able to do, then it really needs to go.

The soft flux is there precisely so you have a much harder time punching through shields with what's an efficient and long-ranged weapon typically mounted on a faster (given same ship size) hulls. Otherwise, it'd be a "clear best" setup - best range, enough speed to stay out of the way, can deliver enough damage to kill. Not a good thing.

Also doesn't change the fact that the way the 'f' key works now is a pretty awkward way to go about it.

The fact that firing at nothing can accomplish the same thing isn't good, though. Bears a bit more thought - I am considering removing that mechanic altogether and giving energy weapons a slight boost across the board, but not settled on it either way.


Well, there's a topic over in the suggestions forum about redesigning the High-Energy Focus that's somewhat related to this. It's meant to solve a different issue, but part of the re-design is basically giving the active part of the system the same flux-raising functionality that the 'F' key currently gives.

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3387.0

Yeah, transferring this functionality to a ship system (i.e the HEF), rather than getting rid of it completely, might be a good way to go about it. I need to give that thread a closer look.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #408 on: July 11, 2012, 02:54:35 PM »

Hm.  Those are some very good points.  Still... I wouldn't be too worried about beam kiting at the moment.  To take Neonesis' Dominator versus HIL example, you need 2x HIL.  Which means, at a minimum, 2x Sunder, or maybe 1x Odyssey - and, well, if I can't beat a single Dominator with that kind of force advantage, something is wrong, beam kiting or no beam kiting.

For me, at least, the damage boost from high flux just means that energy based ships get more dangerous as they take damage; it gives me an incentive to push the attack when my ship is getting high on flux, rather than playing safe and backing off to vent.  And it just looks neat to have the guns glowing as you gain flux.

Also doesn't change the fact that the way the 'f' key works now is a pretty awkward way to go about it.

The fact that firing at nothing can accomplish the same thing isn't good, though.

This is really the biggest reason I can see for changing things.  Hm.  One possibly interesting thought: what if you increased energy weapon damage & flux generation by, say, 25% across the board - and then had high flux levels reduce flux cost of energy weapons instead of increasing damage?  That would give some of the same feel of high flux = more firepower, keep the pretty glowing energy graphics for all ships, and totally remove any possible advantage to be had from artificially boosting your own flux levels.

I think that would combine fairly well with my HEF notion that naufrago linked to.  But it'd need a fair bit of balance testing.  On the other hand, just adding ship systems at all necessitates balance testing, so maybe now would be a good time to experiment?
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Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #409 on: July 11, 2012, 03:06:20 PM »

This is really the biggest reason I can see for changing things.  Hm.  One possibly interesting thought: what if you increased energy weapon damage & flux generation by, say, 25% across the board - and then had high flux levels reduce flux cost of energy weapons instead of increasing damage?  That would give some of the same feel of high flux = more firepower, keep the pretty glowing energy graphics for all ships, and totally remove any possible advantage to be had from artificially boosting your own flux levels.

I think that would combine fairly well with my HEF notion that naufrago linked to.  But it'd need a fair bit of balance testing.  On the other hand, just adding ship systems at all necessitates balance testing, so maybe now would be a good time to experiment?

At first blush, that seems like a very good idea. I'm not sure increasing the damage and flux costs is even necessary - just replacing the damage boost with a flux cost reduction might be enough.

One potential issue is it'll be harder to tell if you've got enough flux to fire certain weapons - like the Plasma Cannon or the AM Blaster... hmm.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #410 on: July 11, 2012, 03:12:25 PM »

I'm not sure increasing the damage and flux costs is even necessary
You may be right, now that I think about it.  Worth testing, at least.

One potential issue is it'll be harder to tell if you've got enough flux to fire certain weapons - like the Plasma Cannon or the AM Blaster... hmm.
It should be easy enough to add an extra tic mark on the flux meter for "flux that will be generated if the player clicks to fire"... at least for things other than the plasma cannon; that three shot burst is neat, but does complicate the "do I have enough flux capacity to fire?" question.

Then again, I personally miss the old charge-up-and-release-to-fire plasma cannon.  That was a fun toy.
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naufrago

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #411 on: July 11, 2012, 03:12:45 PM »

Hm.  Those are some very good points.  Still... I wouldn't be too worried about beam kiting at the moment.  To take Neonesis' Dominator versus HIL example, you need 2x HIL.  Which means, at a minimum, 2x Sunder, or maybe 1x Odyssey - and, well, if I can't beat a single Dominator with that kind of force advantage, something is wrong, beam kiting or no beam kiting.

For me, at least, the damage boost from high flux just means that energy based ships get more dangerous as they take damage; it gives me an incentive to push the attack when my ship is getting high on flux, rather than playing safe and backing off to vent.  And it just looks neat to have the guns glowing as you gain flux.

Also doesn't change the fact that the way the 'f' key works now is a pretty awkward way to go about it.

The fact that firing at nothing can accomplish the same thing isn't good, though.

This is really the biggest reason I can see for changing things.  Hm.  One possibly interesting thought: what if you increased energy weapon damage & flux generation by, say, 25% across the board - and then had high flux levels reduce flux cost of energy weapons instead of increasing damage?  That would give some of the same feel of high flux = more firepower, keep the pretty glowing energy graphics for all ships, and totally remove any possible advantage to be had from artificially boosting your own flux levels.

I think that would combine fairly well with my HEF notion that naufrago linked to.  But it'd need a fair bit of balance testing.  On the other hand, just adding ship systems at all necessitates balance testing, so maybe now would be a good time to experiment?

Well, the problem with that is that it wouldn't remove any advantage to raising your flux levels. It may make it harder to raise your flux outside of combat, though, which would be a plus. The problem I see is that it runs the risk of making energy weapons TOO powerful. Make the efficiency bonus too low and you run into a similar situation to what we have now, or worse, makes energy underpowered. Too high and it becomes overpowered. Finding that sweet spot will be difficult because the math isn't a straight conversion, and the risk of it completely destroying the balance is fairly high.

Of course, that would just make implementing it hard. Hard, but doable.

EDIT: Also, consider that removing the damage bonus makes energy weapons weaker against armor than currently. Being able to fire more often doesn't completely offset that.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 03:17:58 PM by naufrago »
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neonesis

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #412 on: July 11, 2012, 03:20:03 PM »

Honestly, to me that's more of an argument for remove the feature. If it's most useful to facilitate the kind of kiting that beam weapons aren't supposed to be able to do, then it really needs to go.

The soft flux is there precisely so you have a much harder time punching through shields with what's an efficient and long-ranged weapon typically mounted on a faster (given same ship size) hulls. Otherwise, it'd be a "clear best" setup - best range, enough speed to stay out of the way, can deliver enough damage to kill. Not a good thing.

Also doesn't change the fact that the way the 'f' key works now is a pretty awkward way to go about it.

The fact that firing at nothing can accomplish the same thing isn't good, though. Bears a bit more thought - I am considering removing that mechanic altogether and giving energy weapons a slight boost across the board, but not settled on it either way.

After giving it a second thought, I have to agree - I imagined myself on the other end of the barrel (Dominator), and it sucked.
However, I am still looking to a better solution than increasing damage across the board, decreasing flux usage with higher flux being one of them.

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theSONY

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #413 on: July 11, 2012, 03:20:56 PM »

so Alex, why just change the Flux button insted of remove that option ?
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #414 on: July 11, 2012, 03:45:52 PM »

Most people really find no use for it.
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Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #415 on: July 11, 2012, 03:53:44 PM »

so Alex, why just change the Flux button insted of remove that option ?

Well, it's discussed in more detail above, but the really short version is "it's awkward, very situational, and potentially bad". Mostly awkward, though. Stay tuned for further developments - may not happen immediately, but I don't expect just removing the button to be the end of it.
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Sunfire

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #416 on: July 11, 2012, 03:58:06 PM »

so Alex, why just change the Flux button insted of remove that option ?

Well, it's discussed in more detail above, but the really short version is "it's awkward, very situational, and potentially bad". Mostly awkward, though. Stay tuned for further developments - may not happen immediately, but I don't expect just removing the button to be the end of it.

I accidentally found it in the middle of a battle while flying a high tech ship
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Thaago

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #417 on: July 11, 2012, 04:59:56 PM »

This is really the biggest reason I can see for changing things.  Hm.  One possibly interesting thought: what if you increased energy weapon damage & flux generation by, say, 25% across the board - and then had high flux levels reduce flux cost of energy weapons instead of increasing damage?  That would give some of the same feel of high flux = more firepower, keep the pretty glowing energy graphics for all ships, and totally remove any possible advantage to be had from artificially boosting your own flux levels.

I think that would combine fairly well with my HEF notion that naufrago linked to.  But it'd need a fair bit of balance testing.  On the other hand, just adding ship systems at all necessitates balance testing, so maybe now would be a good time to experiment?

At first blush, that seems like a very good idea. I'm not sure increasing the damage and flux costs is even necessary - just replacing the damage boost with a flux cost reduction might be enough.

One potential issue is it'll be harder to tell if you've got enough flux to fire certain weapons - like the Plasma Cannon or the AM Blaster... hmm.

I'm not sure changing the damage bonus to reducing the flux cost would be a good idea - a lot of the considerations of ship design revolve around flux balance and dissipation. Also the small energy weapons are fairly
light on damage - the boost to PD and tactical laser damage from flux is really essential as the current balance lies. Its a very large change and I don't really see the benefit from it.  :-\
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Wyvern

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #418 on: July 12, 2012, 08:01:44 AM »

I'm not sure changing the damage bonus to reducing the flux cost would be a good idea - a lot of the considerations of ship design revolve around flux balance and dissipation. Also the small energy weapons are fairly
light on damage - the boost to PD and tactical laser damage from flux is really essential as the current balance lies. Its a very large change and I don't really see the benefit from it.  :-\

That's why my original post suggested increasing damage & flux generation across the board to start with - essentially trying to sort of average in the existing damage bonus.  At low flux levels the guns would be deal more damage (at the cost of more flux); at medium flux, it'd be exactly the same as currently at medium flux, and at high flux they'd do less damage, but be cheaper to fire.

The benefit is that there'd no longer be any possible value to "gaming" your flux levels - assuming it was tuned right, there'd never be a situation in which it was cheaper to artificially boost flux and then fire, instead of just firing to start with.

Why is that a benefit?  See the entire previous discussion full of complaints about the raise-your-flux button going away.
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Rymosrac

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Re: Starfarer 0.53a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #419 on: July 12, 2012, 09:16:57 AM »

One potential issue is it'll be harder to tell if you've got enough flux to fire certain weapons - like the Plasma Cannon or the AM Blaster... hmm.

So make the weapons turn orange or purple or something on the weapons list when you have insufficient free flux to fire them, similar to having them turn red when ammunition depleted.
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