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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: Help wrapping my head around this  (Read 2800 times)

spacedog

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Help wrapping my head around this
« on: January 17, 2025, 11:49:26 PM »

I've been peripherally aware of this game for several years, and finally decided to give it a no-risk try thanks to the sseth video.  Within an hour or so it was a no-brainer to support the dev and buy a copy.  What an amazing labor of love.  Respect to everyone who works on this.

That said... I finished the initial campaign tutorial and I'm a bit lost.  I spent some time on the wiki understanding the game mechanics -- nothing too difficult there.  I'm currently parked at Jangala with the most ridiculously hodge-podge and ignorantly equipped fleet of ships imaginable.  I did one mission to plant a spy satellite around Hesperus, which was a bit of an adventure.  I eventually figured out I could hack the comms relay to distract the fleets.  I can tell I'm going to have a lot of fun with this game.

I can see a clear path to progressing toward colonies and the current "endgame" content, but I'm completely overwhelmed by the ship system.  I get that it's the heart and soul of the game, and deserves a lot of depth, but the sheer number of ships/weapons/etc. are really leaving me feeling stuck and not knowing how to tackle the whole thing.  I tried piloting a few ships myself and it was way harder than I expected it to be.  I guess this is good, that it's no so easy that it's boring, but I quickly reverted to just zerging other fleets and letting the AI pilots work it all out, which leaves me feeling a little disappointed.

I see lots of guides (ignoring the pinned newbie/FAQ post that's 12 YEARS OLD), and they all have fine advice about "use this loadout to win".  But what I really want is to figure out how to work this out myself.  Do I just need to memorize every ship/weapon/hullmod/etc. and have it raid my dreams for 3 weeks straight to wrap my head around all of this?  Or is there some hack to make sense of the majority of it so I can feel like I'm making good short term decisions, while I refine my understanding to grasp the finer nuances of everything?
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Spyro

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2025, 12:00:01 AM »

A good suggestion that gets posted often is to experiment a bit in the Missions from the main menu. Those are predetermined battles where you have access to every weapon and hullmod. So just pick what ship you think looks cool or is fun to pilot, then just go nuts with switching out weapons and different combinations of hullmods to see what works and what doesn't.

It's a risk free environment without the logistical hassle of the campaign where you need enough of x weapon and have blueprints of hullmods. Of course you don't need to go through every single ship/weapon/hullmod in the game, just test out the things you want and you will already have a much better feeling of how things work.
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Gothars

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2025, 02:53:00 AM »

I'm completely overwhelmed by the ship system

I would suggest to start a new game with one or two ships, and then focus on gradually upgrading/replacing them. Rather than expanding the size of your fleet. If upgrade opportunities trickle in one after the other, the whole thing is far less overwhelming.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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TheJollyKraut

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2025, 04:10:24 AM »

I'm completely overwhelmed by the ship system
All you really have to understand is the tech level of ships and what kind of damage type the different weapons deal and everything else kinda falls into place from there.
  • Low Tech ships usually use ballistic weapons that for the most part split their damage types between either kinetic (anti shield), explosive (anti armor) or fragmentation (anti hull).
  • Midline ships can use both ballistic and/or energy weapons.
  • High Tech ships usually use energy/beam weapons that for the most part do energy damage (equaly good/bad against everything). Beam weapons, however, don't do hard flux damage to shields unless a certain ship mod is installed, but there are beam weapons that do explosive or fragmentation damage.
*there are notable exceptions to those general rules tho

Missiles on the other hand are pretty much mix and match, covering any damage type.


I think the easiest fleet to start with as a newbie is a High Tech fleet as you don't have to worry too much about damage types and when to use which weapon, and the additional EMP damage (great against Pirates and Ludds) that energy weapons can offer will carry a High Tech wolfpack fleet all the way to late midgame. What's important regardless is that you pick skills that complement your fleet and to train your officers specifically for the ship they are piloting.

Decent starter loadouts:
  • Wolf - 1x Pulse Laser, 1x Ion Cannon, 2x PD Laser/LR PD Laser, 1x Swarmer SRM, 1x Salamander SRM // Flux Distributer + Hardened Subsystems // max Vents, rest Capacitor
  • Omen - 1x IR Pulse Laser, 1x PD Laser/LR PD Laser, 1x Swarmer SRM // Flux Distributer + Hardened Subsystems // max Vents, rest Capacitor
  • Tempest - 1x Pulse Laser, 1x Ion Cannon, 1x Swarmer SRM // Flux Distributer + Hardened Subsystems + Auxiliary Thrusters // max Vents, rest Capacitor
  • Medusa - 1x Pulse Laser, 1x Ion Pulser, 2x IR Pulse Laser, 3x PD Laser/LR PD Laser, 1x Swarmer SRM, 1x Salamander SRM // Flux Distributer + Hardened Subsystems // max Vents, rest Capacitor
You can just have the frigates escort the destroyers and then move only the destroyers around if you prefer to backseat captain your battles ;)

« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 05:01:58 AM by TheJollyKraut »
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HeimrArnadalr

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2025, 02:46:03 PM »

I can see a clear path to progressing toward colonies and the current "endgame" content, but I'm completely overwhelmed by the ship system.  I get that it's the heart and soul of the game, and deserves a lot of depth, but the sheer number of ships/weapons/etc. are really leaving me feeling stuck and not knowing how to tackle the whole thing.  I tried piloting a few ships myself and it was way harder than I expected it to be.  I guess this is good, that it's no so easy that it's boring, but I quickly reverted to just zerging other fleets and letting the AI pilots work it all out, which leaves me feeling a little disappointed.

I felt the same way when I first started, so you're not alone. What helped me was to come up with a "theory of victory" for each ship I outfitted. Ask yourself: how will this ship kill the enemy?
To kill an enemy ship, you need to do three things. First, build up flux on its shield until it drops shields or overloads. Second, you have to break through its armor, and thirdly, do enough damage to its hull to destroy it.
Low-tech ships will typically use specialized weapons: kinetic weapons to deal hard flux to shields, and high-explosive weapons to break armor. Once that's done, the combination of the two should be enough to finish off the hull.
High-tech ships will typically use more generalized energy weapons for all three. Midline ships are a little more complex - they use ballistics too, but also energy weapons that are typically long-range support beams. Missiles and fighters can also be used to supplement your capabilities in each area - pay close attention to their damage types.

One other big thing to be aware of is the tradeoff between speed and range. Slower ships will have longer ranged guns to make up for their pokiness, and quicker ships typically want to mount shorter-ranged (but more powerful) guns and do hit-and-run attacks. It's often a good idea to make fast ships faster and long-ranged ships even longer-ranged (always add Integrated Targeting Unit to cruisers and capitals).
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Bungee_man

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2025, 03:22:39 PM »

A good suggestion that gets posted often is to experiment a bit in the Missions from the main menu. Those are predetermined battles where you have access to every weapon and hullmod. So just pick what ship you think looks cool or is fun to pilot, then just go nuts with switching out weapons and different combinations of hullmods to see what works and what doesn't.

It's a risk free environment without the logistical hassle of the campaign where you need enough of x weapon and have blueprints of hullmods. Of course you don't need to go through every single ship/weapon/hullmod in the game, just test out the things you want and you will already have a much better feeling of how things work.

Exactly this. The missions will teach you combat, strategy, and ship design in a format that always gives you a fair fight (provided you've built your fleet well). Much faster learning this way than in campaign, where a badly-made fleet might win just because it doesn't have fifty D-mods on everything like the pirates it's fighting, or a well-made fleet might lose because the enemy fleet's officers are higher-level (which can be very unintuitive to a new player - the little officer icons next to enemy ships can be the difference between winning a fight easily or getting wrecked by something that's roughly twice as strong as you expected).
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spacedog

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2025, 09:47:26 PM »

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  It's gotten a little better, but I still have quite a way to go.

I've realized where most of my feelings of being overwhelmed were coming from.  I know at its core this is a "fleet battle" game, but the game doesn't really ease you into that at all.  Pretty much right out of the gate it throws fleets of a dozen or more ships at you.  It's very much like getting tossed into the deep end of the pool.

So... I suppose this is feedback of sorts to the devs.  I think the game is great, and I can see that the complexity of these larger battles is what makes it fun long-term.  But I would have been WAY less overwhelmed if it kept the size of the initial fleets I'm commanding and encountering on the smaller side at first.  Give me a 5 dimensional problem to wrap my head around instead of a 20 dimensional problem.  I'm sure in time I'll know exactly how to approach a fleet of 30 ships just by glancing at the overview, but it would be nice if the learning curve up to that wasn't so steep.

I'm assuming most of the focus has (rightly) been on nailing the core gameplay experience, but down the road somewhere I think adding a softer start would help with broader appeal.  Especially if this reaches the point of being released to the lazy/unwashed masses on Steam.
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Phenir

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2025, 10:07:54 AM »

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  It's gotten a little better, but I still have quite a way to go.

I've realized where most of my feelings of being overwhelmed were coming from.  I know at its core this is a "fleet battle" game, but the game doesn't really ease you into that at all.  Pretty much right out of the gate it throws fleets of a dozen or more ships at you.  It's very much like getting tossed into the deep end of the pool.

So... I suppose this is feedback of sorts to the devs.  I think the game is great, and I can see that the complexity of these larger battles is what makes it fun long-term.  But I would have been WAY less overwhelmed if it kept the size of the initial fleets I'm commanding and encountering on the smaller side at first.  Give me a 5 dimensional problem to wrap my head around instead of a 20 dimensional problem.  I'm sure in time I'll know exactly how to approach a fleet of 30 ships just by glancing at the overview, but it would be nice if the learning curve up to that wasn't so steep.

I'm assuming most of the focus has (rightly) been on nailing the core gameplay experience, but down the road somewhere I think adding a softer start would help with broader appeal.  Especially if this reaches the point of being released to the lazy/unwashed masses on Steam.
You don't have to fight everything you see and keeping a fast small fleet lets you avoid fighting at all if you get caught. allowing you to choose your battles. I don't think it's a problem with the game if the player decides they want all the ships and to fight the biggest opponents asap, rather it is nice that it allows that. Pretty sure there is already scaling for pirate and pather fleets anyway and bounties start out very small anyway.
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spacedog

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2025, 02:54:06 PM »

Yeah, I finally figured this out today, the hard way, after starting a new run and approaching it differently.

My first game I chose the larger exploration fleet to start with, because who wouldn't want more ships?  It's just math... more is better, right? :D  But by the end of the campaign tutorial you accumulate 10+ ships, and it's a lot to juggle when you have little-to-no experience and only a tenuous grasp on the fundamentals.

I wish there was something in the character creation that was more explicit about this; something that lets you know the game will scale with you somewhat, and that it's 100% okay to start with (and stick with) a small fleet until you feel comfortable trying to handle more.  I just assumed the "right way" was to amass as large a fleet as possible, as quickly as possible, if I wanted to succeed.
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Daynen

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2025, 05:19:11 PM »

Go into your fleet screen and use that simulator extensively.  Test stuff.  See what works and how.  Backup your game, buy that new ship you've never seen, try loading it out and test it yourself.  There's no substitute for firsthand experience.

As for progressing, there are plenty of schools of thought on that but you should bear in mind Starsector is largely a game about choice and consequence more than limitation.  You CAN use a bigger fleet but beware the cost of crewing and maintaining them.  You CAN bring only frigates and destroyers but know that you can't just sit and box with capitals like that.  Don't feel pressed to fight everything or to run from everything.
 Don't think you have to salvage every ship you find (unless you decide to build your skills for salvaging perhaps.)  Trial and error are pretty core to the game and no matter who suggests what, as long as it's working for you and you're having fun, just find your groove and never let anyone tell you how to dance.

I should know, given I'm an Atlas MkII enjoyer and most people go "Ewwww."
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Persian

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2025, 03:26:40 PM »

one of the most fun ways i played this game was being sneaky with low sensor profile ships and just smuggling and doing covert missions (raids / spy satelites) (with transponder off all the time).

taught me to pick my battles , and showed me i can make a small Very strong 7 or 8 frigate fleet that could destroy light patrols and derelict ships to salvage the loot.
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Pushover

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2025, 03:55:29 PM »

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  It's gotten a little better, but I still have quite a way to go.

I've realized where most of my feelings of being overwhelmed were coming from.  I know at its core this is a "fleet battle" game, but the game doesn't really ease you into that at all.  Pretty much right out of the gate it throws fleets of a dozen or more ships at you.  It's very much like getting tossed into the deep end of the pool.

So... I suppose this is feedback of sorts to the devs.  I think the game is great, and I can see that the complexity of these larger battles is what makes it fun long-term.  But I would have been WAY less overwhelmed if it kept the size of the initial fleets I'm commanding and encountering on the smaller side at first.  Give me a 5 dimensional problem to wrap my head around instead of a 20 dimensional problem.  I'm sure in time I'll know exactly how to approach a fleet of 30 ships just by glancing at the overview, but it would be nice if the learning curve up to that wasn't so steep.

I'm assuming most of the focus has (rightly) been on nailing the core gameplay experience, but down the road somewhere I think adding a softer start would help with broader appeal.  Especially if this reaches the point of being released to the lazy/unwashed masses on Steam.
You don't have to fight everything you see and keeping a fast small fleet lets you avoid fighting at all if you get caught. allowing you to choose your battles. I don't think it's a problem with the game if the player decides they want all the ships and to fight the biggest opponents asap, rather it is nice that it allows that. Pretty sure there is already scaling for pirate and pather fleets anyway and bounties start out very small anyway.

To be fair, this is not super well explained/demonstrated by the initial Galatia tutorial questline, since it kind of rushes you into salvaging and fitting a junker fleet to fight.
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Phenir

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2025, 06:46:46 AM »

To be fair, this is not super well explained/demonstrated by the initial Galatia tutorial questline, since it kind of rushes you into salvaging and fitting a junker fleet to fight.
To be fair, I don't think the tutorial should explain every facet of playing the game so the player has some room to experiment to discover their own playstyle. If you only play within the guidelines provided by the tutorial then that is on you.
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Hamsterling

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2025, 07:36:56 AM »

Hello, and welcome to the Persean Sector!

If you still need a little help with ship loadouts, there's this updated guide to ship loadouts.

And something for when you're experienced in the game. The big ship you start with in the exploration fleet start (the Apogee) is, in my opinion, one of the best ships you could start with.

And one more thing: There is a codex in game and I do suggest reading specific entries for ships you're unfamiiliar with.
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spacedog

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Re: Help wrapping my head around this
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2025, 04:47:39 PM »

To be fair, this is not super well explained/demonstrated by the initial Galatia tutorial questline, since it kind of rushes you into salvaging and fitting a junker fleet to fight.
To be fair, I don't think the tutorial should explain every facet of playing the game so the player has some room to experiment to discover their own playstyle. If you only play within the guidelines provided by the tutorial then that is on you.

To be fair, what Pushover called out was in fact the very trap I fell into.  "The tutorial is literally telling me to salvage up a junker fleet to go zerg the pirates, so that must be the best way to play."

Looking back I can see the "go beef up your fleet" narrative was more for story value than actually teaching the player.  So I guess we could go back and forth with opinions around that.  But as a new player trying to digest the high degree of complexity being presented, it was more confusing than helpful.  If I were artificially limited to just a few ships I would have had a much easier time getting a handle on how everything is balanced and how to succeed, rather than watching a Trash Can Melee and having no idea why certain ships were winning and others were losing.  ;D

Maybe the elephant in the room is that Starsector needs way more in-depth tutorials if broad accessibility/appeal is a goal.  I leaned in and figured it all out, but it took several days and no small amount of reading and re-reading and re-re-reading wiki pages until it all the various layers clicked together.  And then a bunch of time in simulations with a console mod so I could spawn specific ships to really grasp the nuances of the systems interactions.  I'm just sharing this perspective as someone completely new to the game, since it's not something people who've been playing for years will ever deal with.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2025, 07:59:36 PM by spacedog »
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