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[Killer of Fate]

raise its DP to cost to 25

That would hit the missile spam, but then is it worth 25 dp outside of those fleets? Maybe raise it to 25 dp and give it a free hullmod like ballistic rangefinder or escort package while staying at 140 op. In missile spam it would be worse, but for other fleets it's a tradeoff.

If you compare it to something like Champion or Heron. It's perfectly fine. A high DPS medium speed ship that is capable of just long-term bombardment. And scales incredibly with a proper officer.

Eagle is overpowered btw

And don't u dare put Escort Package on Gryphon. Nobody wants to be forced to walk around a big fat capital ship all day just to make a ship viable.

[tseikk1]

If there is something that *desperately* needs balancing, it has to be the gryphon. Missile spam gryphon is still pretty ridiculous. This may be a problem inherent to harpoons and squalls, but it doesn't seem to present a serious balance issue when they are used anywhere else. I haven't seen anyone go out of their way to demonstrate such a problem, at least.

How would one re-balance the gryphon without ruining it? It seems fair as a support ship in mixed fleet compositions, but presents an issue when you spam mostly gryphons. Well, how about giving it a built-in escort package, and reducing its OP by 15? Basically forcing it to pay for a hullmod that missile-spam doesn't want, while it could get value out of it in a more normal fleet composition.

I view this ship in the same way as I've come to view safety overrides in general: A way to make the game easier but much more boring (Though I have to say having an option like this in a game isn't necessarily bad). Linking squall and harpoons to force it to fire harpoons whenever feels like I'm cheating, as does using more than three gryphons in a single fleet to reach critical mass. Using both I might as well set everything on autopilot and go get groceries.

Without spamming them and without linking harpoons to whichever large missile I'm using the ship feels quite alright. Not too strong, not too weak, and with clear weaknesses and strengths. I'm not sure if it should be balanced around monofleets/abusing linked harpoons, as it would most likely make it weak when used "ethically".

[SCC]

We hear a lot fewer complaints about missile spamming, at least, so it isn't necessarily a big issue.

[Megas]

When Squall had more hp that needed extreme PD to shoot down, the S&H (Squall-and-Harpoon combo) Gryphon was easily worth 30 DP.  Even unskilled and no s-mods, S&H Gryphon crushed its SIM peers and punched significantly above its weight in a duel.  Today, it only does that if the enemy does not have PD to shoot down Squalls.

Squalls and Harpoons ought to lose some range.

Without Squalls and Harpoons, Gryphon is probably not as overwhelming.

Also, since Missile Autoforge has been changed to refill base amount of missiles, there is less need for Missile Racks to be built-in for Gryphon.  Remove Missile Racks built-in and refund the 20 OP.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Having 2500 range is the source of many issues. Taking it away isn't really what I want to do, but it could work. It would also have the side effect of making the hurricane stand out as the one and only missile with 2500 range.

[Brainwright]

Having 2500 range is the source of many issues. Taking it away isn't really what I want to do, but it could work. It would also have the side effect of making the hurricane stand out as the one and only missile with 2500 range.

Or it could just lose tracking at 1500.

[Megas]

Having 2500 range is the source of many issues. Taking it away isn't really what I want to do, but it could work. It would also have the side effect of making the hurricane stand out as the one and only missile with 2500 range.

Resonator has 2500 range too, and it is very powerful (as a super-efficient, homing HVD) even among other Omega weapons.

[Alex]

Just FYI, in the dev build the Gryphon has lost its built-in EMR, without getting anything in return. The thinking behind adding EMR in the first place was that it was a no-brainer on this ship, but with the change to how its system works - reloading base ammo instead of maximum - that's no longer *quite* the case. I don't think this'll bring it completely in line, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

I kind of like Harpoons/Squalls at 2500 range, but yeah, I understand the point about them focusing fire maybe too easily due to that.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Improved flux stats on the gryphon is feeling real nice for closer range builds (cyclone reaper + needlers), plus it wouldn't make squall/harpoon spam any better. 25 dp with better flux stats could work. Missile spam would still be strong, this would just tone it down a bit.

Resonator has 2500 range too, and it is very powerful (as a super-efficient, homing HVD) even among other Omega weapons.

Guess I should specify only human missile with 2500 range. If that change went through, that is.

[Phenir]

We hear a lot fewer complaints about missile spamming, at least, so it isn't necessarily a big issue.

There's no complaints because enemy gryphons are basically relegated to spamming dems and also don't get spammed like player gryphons might.

[Wyvern]

Maybe just take the harpoon pod back down to two missiles per salvo? I still feel that four is a bit much, and that being able to fire a medium missile only three times without ammunition boosters is a bit low.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

It's funny how some of these nerfs may actually end up being buffs.

You limit Harpoons to two missiles per salvo? Great, now ships can fire Harpoons for twice as long while avoiding overkills.

You removed built-in EMR on the Gryphon? Good, now I'm going to S-mod it in, slowing down fire rate and therefore gaining endurance(I guess you could do it with built-in EMR too, it just never occured to me)

[Megas]

Maybe just take the harpoon pod back down to two missiles per salvo? I still feel that four is a bit much, and that being able to fire a medium missile only three times without ammunition boosters is a bit low.

I remember two-shots, and they did not shoot enough, fast enough.  I remember always being disappointed with two-shot Harpoon pods.  (Felt like ages before they reloaded.)  Four is only too much because of lack of ammo.  Maybe if they shot three at a time, although that would mean a different sprite to look good.

Of course, when it was buffed, MIRV was buffed too.  Recently, MIRV has come almost full circle back to what it was in Starfarer.

You removed built-in EMR on the Gryphon? Good, now I'm going to S-mod it in, slowing down fire rate and therefore gaining endurance(I guess you could do it with built-in EMR too, it just never occured to me)

Gryphon will still lose 20 OP since the soon to be lost built-in will not get "anything in return."  If you s-mod it racks back in yourself, you have one less s-mod slot for everything else it gets today.

Even so, Gryphon still has more OP than Heron, and Gryphon has stats similar to Heron.

[tseikk1]

I think it's best both squall and especially harpoons stay untouched. Neither of them is a problem on their own, but especially in nerfing harpoons range there is a significant amount of collateral damage to be done. Too little range with that missile speed and they simply won't connect anymore, especially when equipped on ships like Mora or escort package Manticore, both of which prefer to stay at long range. If their range gets reduced, they absolutely need a projectile speed boost, which in turn might necessitate a projectile health reduction so pd can have a chance against them and so on.

[kaoseth]

I kind of like Harpoons/Squalls at 2500 range, but yeah, I understand the point about them focusing fire maybe too easily due to that.

I'd say keep the range, but give missiles a small explosive pop when they die to damage to anything near by, Damage and area of that pop proportional to the original missile damage. This should cause large concentrations of missiles to start chain reactions when they go over a critical mass of missiles in one area.  Thus allowing PD to shoot down proportionally more depending on how many missiles are incoming.  And it has the dramatic effect of seeing reaper popping and taking out a swath of missiles near by. 

Plus, I'd think it'd help to extend the AI so that it reacts to being attacked with a large concentration of missiles by firing non-pd weapons in a panic into the incoming swarm.  With enough missiles in one spot you don't need to aim like a PD weapon does to hit one.  Something Like "Oh my god I'm being targeted by so many missiles, fire the Autopulse Laser generally at them and hope to hit a few."