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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)  (Read 30769 times)

PixiCode

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #240 on: January 03, 2025, 11:31:48 PM »

Omen does stand out a bit right now, but yeah not that much compared to the other high tech frigates (Omen, Glimmer, Scarab, even Wolf are pretty decent with Tempest getting buffed next).
It's a tiny target with great shields and speed so it doesn't get randomly popped or worn down.
Frigates on the slower end with weaker shields are the ones generally not worth bringing.

Yeah Wolf is a bit of a sleeper pick right now, I remember a fair number of people memed on it being awful in 0.95, but the buffs medium energies got since then have made Wolf really enticing. Don't forget the TT Brawler, too. Another sleeper pick. Centurion is very good too!

Honestly, the only frigates I'm not a big fan of that isn't also a freighter are the base Lasher and base Brawler. They're both servicable, but somewhat sad compared to every other frigate.

Vanguard is excellent when it doesn't get hard countered by beams. What a silly ship.

also nobody likes the Monitor haha funny meme funny
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 11:33:41 PM by PixiCode »
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #241 on: January 03, 2025, 11:38:40 PM »

I think if you try for too much balance you end up polishing off the things that actually make games fun to play!
This is something a lot of balance threads miss, imo. Starsector is a singleplayer game, and making everything fair and equal is a lot less important than making everything fun. In fact, i see small imbalances (like most battleships, or omega weapons, or most specialized cruisers, or phase frigates) as more of an in-game easy mode, the same way that you can just skip most of Inscryption's gameplay if you make a genuinely decent deck (that game has intentional balance holes all over the place).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 11:40:21 PM by Princess of Evil »
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Thaago

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #242 on: January 04, 2025, 01:32:22 AM »

...

I should play more with TT Brawlers, I don't have a strong opinion on them.

Wolves have gone from being a ship I did not think was effective to my go-to cheap frigate. The combination of energy weapon buffs and S-mod extended shields fixes almost all of their issues. Not worth an officer lategame, but a really solid choice as Support Doctrine spam ships as all 4 skills are good for them.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #243 on: January 04, 2025, 02:09:33 AM »

Wolf is the quintessential high tech frigate in that it's very good and highly survivable when it flies well, but the one in 10 chance of yeeting itself into a tach lance is a problem.

TT brawler feels like it's missing a niche. Are you thinking an extra source of grav beams (or any suppression beam weapon) for a capital ship? Feels like a Sunder is more worthwhile. They don't really have the speed or killing power to be point cappers, and they fall into the same low-tech frigate trap of being too slow to keep their distance from things they can't kill as well as other frigates can.
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Draba

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #244 on: January 04, 2025, 02:24:49 AM »

TT brawler feels like it's missing a niche. Are you thinking an extra source of grav beams (or any suppression beam weapon) for a capital ship? Feels like a Sunder is more worthwhile. They don't really have the speed or killing power to be point cappers, and they fall into the same low-tech frigate trap of being too slow to keep their distance from things they can't kill as well as other frigates can.
That's why later on I generally don't use (TT)Brawler, Centurion or Lasher.
They can't cap very well, can't catch other frigates, for fighting around bigger ships they are competing against destroyers (and Omen's EMP).
Have a soft spot for Lasher but it's pretty weak after the early bounties.
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PixiCode

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #245 on: January 04, 2025, 03:11:57 AM »

TT brawler has a serious niche as a heavy puncher support frigate, basically a similar niche that the LP Brawler fulfills but with more flexibility available what with ion pulser. Might be a nice way to cheaply throw in some disintegrators if those get buffed, too. Don't forget, the TT Brawler has Plasma Jets, not Maneuvering Jets, so its system gives it +125 top speed during use. I haven't used the TT brawler a ton yet, but I did some testing using AI Battles for tournament testing back in 0.96. The phase beam buff in 0.97 might have unlocked more powerful TT brawler builds since then too, not sure. Either way my experience in 0.96 gave me a serious softspot for TT Brawlers. My own testing used 1 AMB (downsized medium!) and 1 ion pulser, then with whatever in the synergies, not sure yet. The tournament testing meant I wasn't using any officer or s-mods on the brawlers, so if I remember right I left the small slots empty, or maybe i had 2 AMBlasters and 1 ion pulser? Don't remember. Although tournaments don't translate 1 to 1 to the campaign, they overlap enough to start seeing patterns of how a certain ship build might work well in the campaign with a few alterations. Part of my shilling of the TT Brawler is another person I know who frequents the CN tournament community talks a lot about the TT brawler. Combine my own experience and their enthusiasm for it and I'm convinced it's high up there on the list of good frigates. How high, I have no idea besides above the current 0.97 Tempest, which itself I think is pretty good. 

They get better when your fleet is wide enough to support them; you could go support doctrine and get a bunch of TT brawlers that add some mobile punch and width to the fleet to go alongside your scarabs, LP brawlers, medusas, auroras, odysseys or whatever. Having plasma jets and access to medium energies is honestly a big boon over the base brawler's manjets. You get to play to the strength of energy weapons short range pretty well with plasma jets.

Destroyers besides the Medusa need to be near capitals to get their EP bonus which makes them so strong. Being small and with plasma jets lets the TT brawler get away with some pretty funny moves on the battlemap without necessitating being near a friendly capital to do it. Strategies that don't spam capitals are still pretty good and their cheapness means you could actually have a capital or three, EP destroyers and something like TT Brawlers to help add numbers to the fleet.

TT Brawler's meme niche is, like you said, beam spam, but the reason to do so is that it's DP efficient. with Sunder you get a tachyon/HIL, but you only get 1 graviton per 5.5 DP. It's a meme, but 2 tactical lasers and 2 gravitons is 2.5 DP per beam on the TT Brawler, on a platform twice as mobile as the Sunder. They're a way to stay on-theme for a beam spam fleet while making a distraction frigate that harasses from a modest distance. Fast and small enough to be in return fire range while able to back off with that beam range. Just a meme, but it's there.

Centurion is basically just a worse monitor that can still use SO with more customizable weapons. Basically begging to be SO'd on that note, it at least has 240 PPT which is better than the usual suspect high tech frigates. It's really nice to use a Centurion in place of a Monitor if the player doesn't have 6 DP for whatever reason, or more likely if you just decided Monitors are off limits for the playthrough. Being SO does give it the advantage of having better speed so (theoretically) easier to mix in with a high speed aggressive fleet. In practice I feel like monitor still wins out even in that use case though. Doesn't mean the Centurion is bad, it's just not the Monitor. Like how the Tempest isn't bad, it's just not other options.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2025, 03:21:03 AM by PixiCode »
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FooF

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #246 on: January 04, 2025, 04:57:27 AM »

Re: Centurion

No, they're not good cappers but even at end game they're surprisingly durable. I usually fill up the last of my 240 DP budget with them because they're only 4 OP and they run interference very well. Even if they do die, they're cheap to restore or rebuild via blueprints. I personally refuse to use Monitors because of how broken they are.

Lashers seem like they should be good longer than they are. They have a good system and enough mounts but don't have the flux for the any of the Elite Smalls. I always feel like they're limited to Light ACs and a LAG, at best. Or some type of knife-fighting variant that can't even take advantage of the built-in BRF.
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tseikk1

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #247 on: January 04, 2025, 10:26:52 AM »

I did indeed not specify that everything I listed I meant with player skills, officers, smods, everything the game lets the player use. This basically means that what I say is based on mid to late game player fleets, where the expectation is at least two s-mods, a level 5 officer (or support doctrine), and flux regulation unlocked.

So yeah, it might be true that omen without systems expertise isn't a problem. I still think combined with sys.ex. it's too strong, though. I just played a few fights against bounties and remnants without having my omens officered, and the difference is noticeable. Maybe it's the extra *range* sys.ex. gives that makes it so strong? Right now I think an officered omen is more anti-everything than a specialized support ship due to its ability to duel other frigates with EMP emitter, and my omens rarely die either due to maxed caps + hardened shields + unstable injector, but without officers they take too long to kill other frigates and as such are more in line with what I guess they're supposed to be (support ships).

I don't like the idea of changing the omens missile slot to a synergy one: I feel like missile autoloader is one of the more interesting mods to use, while not being too strong. As far as I know it's not even "meta", as the omen likes so many other mods (Hardened subsystems, hardened shields, unstable injector, flux coil adjunct, accelerated shields, solar shielding) and a salamander in the missile slot is actually quite decent due to free ECCM.

A stationary EMP emitter is an interesting idea, but might be too much of a nerf for omen and too much a buff for shade. Phase ships in general seem to be a bit of a difficult subject. Most players find them unfun to fight, and what's more important in a game, regardless of actual balance? Hard to say, a change as big as that would require testing I think.

My opinion on railgun might be similarly skewed, as there's basically two cases in which I use it: On frigates intended to duel other frigates, such as centurion and lasher, and on bigger ships with large ballistics for HE damage, such as onslaught and manticore. On the former it doesn't have the problem of the "warmup" causing shots to miss, because the range is short enough that the shots hit anyway. On the latter I always pair it with elite ballistics mastery, where the higher shot speed means they won't miss. This is in contrast to the light autocannon: I found it still misses a lot even with elite BM at a range, and for frigates it doesn't do quite enough damage, requiring the frigate to use another weapon to deal with armor and hull. This is also why I don't think  "dps per OP" is a good metric to use, as it disregards both the weapons other properties as well as the fact that weapon slots have a baseline value and opportunity cost. With the dps per OP approach the likes of light machine gun, light mortar and mining laser would be amazing weapons.

Light needler is a good weapon, I would call it a sidegrade to railgun. However, it costs an OP more and necessitates another weapon for armor and hull. If railgun and needler shared a cost, I'm not even sure if the light needler would be the correct pick most of the time. Back when railgun was 8 OP, I don't think ballistic mastery and more importantly its elite effect existed. I believe elite BM benefits railguns more, as it allows them to accurately shred frigates at range without need for HE. As it is, I'm still not convinced railgun is not in need of a slight tweak.

I have played with lots of different Scarab builds too, it's been one of my favourite ships ever since tempest lost its old ship system. I find that right now it has three major problems:

-Locked into small energy weapons for damage
-temporal shell drains peak performance
-Remnants punish overextension harder than ever in this version, and scarab often overextends with temporal shell.

This is how I go about building a scarab with these in mind. First, as a frigate in a mid-late environment, it really wants max capacitors and hardened shields to avoid being popped. -20 OP. Hardened subsystems is a must for 180 PPT with a ship system that drains it further. -5 OP. Low base speed needs help, frigates are good with it anyways, and this type of ship doesn't suffer from the downside at all, -5 OP for unstable injector. Frontal shield conversion to not die against fighters and when flanking/diving, -3 OP. Tell me if you think some of this isn't necessary, but I really feel like every frigate needs to max durability now because of how brilliants and novas are. This puts a heavy strain on the scarab, even when using S-mods, because small energy slots aren't that good at killing things on their own. It leaves very little OP for actual offensive systems, which usually leads me to using weird *** like 3x burst pd+HSA+S-mod expanded mags or just two antimatter blasters as the main weapon and leaving all other slots empty, which just feels kinda bad, especially in a prolonged battle.

One good thing I have to say about the scarab is that it's probably the best ship in the game at utilizing non-missile omega weapons. It's amazing with shock repeaters and a minipulser, but then again, I'm not sure if omega weapons should be taken into account when discussing balance.

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Alex

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #248 on: January 04, 2025, 10:45:21 AM »

Monitor delenda est!

Neverrr!

But no, seriously - the problem is that it looks silly for the AI to be focusing on the Monitor, right. I guess I typically don't see that much because I tend to build mine with extended-range LMGs, so that it can't exactly be ignored. Am I missing some aspect of this? Just want to make sure I understand it clearly.

(I do realize the ship is very OP for its deployment cost; that's to me a side issue, one of those "but I find it fun so whatever".)
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Thaago

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #249 on: January 04, 2025, 11:00:53 AM »

...

Light needler is a good weapon, I would call it a sidegrade to railgun. However, it costs an OP more and necessitates another weapon for armor and hull. If railgun and needler shared a cost, I'm not even sure if the light needler would be the correct pick most of the time. Back when railgun was 8 OP, I don't think ballistic mastery and more importantly its elite effect existed. I believe elite BM benefits railguns more, as it allows them to accurately shred frigates at range without need for HE. As it is, I'm still not convinced railgun is not in need of a slight tweak.

...

I have to admit, I don't think the difference in anti-armor/hull favors the railgun. It has more hit strength which is good, and I see it do a bit more armor damage in post-combat, but frigates don't have enough armor to matter much in most cases.

In theory, against the residual armor of a 250 base armor frigate, the railgun does ~33% more damage. [from the DPS and penetration vs residual armor: (167/150) * (.8/.6666) ]. But I often see light needlers doing more hull damage in practice - I think the burst is just that good.


Monitor delenda est!

Neverrr!

But no, seriously - the problem is that it looks silly for the AI to be focusing on the Monitor, right. I guess I typically don't see that much because I tend to build mine with extended-range LMGs, so that it can't exactly be ignored. Am I missing some aspect of this? Just want to make sure I understand it clearly.

(I do realize the ship is very OP for its deployment cost; that's to me a side issue, one of those "but I find it fun so whatever".)

Hahahaha :D

Yeah, the problem is the AI attention vs the threat it poses. It's not so bad in the player fleet because in that case its the player taking advantage of the AI, which feels natural; it's when the ship is in an enemy fleet that it gets obnoxious.

The "right" way for allied ships to deal with it is just to not, and especially not waste flux shooting at it if there is another hostile ship around! I'm not sure how the AI priority works exactly, but I've noticed it tends to try to focus fire on smaller ships before big ones, possibly because of the small flux pool? There's no way for us to command the AI to ignore the thing without an avoid which has a lot of other implications for maneuvering etc, so it just leaves the player helpless to watch their ships do the wrong thing.

Oh, that reminds me of the "eliminate and engage makes the AI fire at that ship if in arcs" suggestion, the same behavior as when a ship is R targeted and weapons are on autofire. I'd add that as a possibility for this thread, and it would help the monitor issue: being able to command the ships to "shoot at that thing, that one right there" would be a big help, as it allows counterplay.

Side note, piloting a Harbinger right now and I cackle with glee every time I instantly pop a Monitor. Which I suppose is counterplay if very specific, and a reason to leave them alone, as only something annoying can cause such satisfaction in wrecking it. (Kind of the same reason to write characters as truly hateable, so readers love when they get what's coming to them.)
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #250 on: January 04, 2025, 11:05:52 AM »

Monitor delenda est!

Neverrr!

But no, seriously - the problem is that it looks silly for the AI to be focusing on the Monitor, right. I guess I typically don't see that much because I tend to build mine with extended-range LMGs, so that it can't exactly be ignored. Am I missing some aspect of this? Just want to make sure I understand it clearly.

(I do realize the ship is very OP for its deployment cost; that's to me a side issue, one of those "but I find it fun so whatever".)
You can also give it Antimatter Blasters, Reapers, or Antimatter Launchers. It needs to be dealt with and can't be ignored. That being said I'm sure most people's issues with it would end if the AI would ignore it if a decent volume of other ships were already fighting it, and the AI factored player orders into this equation.
It's weird that a cruiser concerns itself with a Monitor that is currently fighting frigates the player has explicitly told to eliminate the Monitor.
This already can be fixed partially with Reckless AI and eliminate orders.
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PixiCode

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #251 on: January 04, 2025, 12:05:32 PM »

In reply to Tseikk1

Provided you aren’t using infinite mercenaries, my statements about Omen consider officers and smods etc. for the amount of resources you invest I actually think the Omen is an example of how frigates should feel once you give them smods and officers etc. Do you really feel like you’re missing out if you don’t use an Omen? I regularly find myself thinking my omens kill things too slowly for my liking if I’m not using over 10 of them all attacking one target. I just don’t see any situation where the Omen is actually superior enough to be anti-everything without also being inferior to the stronger meta stuff like capital stacking or missile spam which are more powerful with fewer risks taken.

I do think System Expertise might be a bit too strong in general. Not so much on the Omen, but on certain ships that get all 3 benefits at once. Doom mines and phase skimmer, in particular.

I don’t have too much more to say about railgun and light Needler besides that I feel like there’s really not much reason to use railgun over light Needler with light Needler being .1 more flux efficient than it. Flux efficiency is king, the burst damage is just another strong trait. You could make railgun 6 OP and I would still use light Needlers.

I do think Scarab is the second most selfish frigate in the game which benefits the most from s-mods and officer for the reasons you pointed out, but I have never had issues fitting its front 5 mounts if I’m not using AMB. Unless you make the rear 2 mounts converge forward I don’t think I would ever use them on the scarab. I never, ever use the rear mounts on a centurion either and I don’t see why the player should. These ships are small, maneuverable and heavily reliant on their OP to extend their survival, offense and so on and both can get 360 shields so salamanders are whatever. Rear mounts would, for that reason, only be used to stop fighters. The frigate is nimble enough to turn and face fighters, which I think it does do even if you do put weapons in the rear mounts. Unless the ship is busy chasing down a ship and ignoring the fighters, but I don’t think that’s relevant enough to list it as a weakness to call scarab underpowered over.

I don’t think scarab always requires unstable injector or maximum capacitors. I still think OP is very tight, but I did have something to say here.

With Flux Regulation, assuming you made sure your scarab is a little underfluxed so that it can afford temporal shell on cooldown, I’ve found 7-8 capacitors is enough. Going below that is too dangerous. I feel like ignoring flux dissipation to entirely commit to capacity is also too dangerous. More likely to be trapped without the flux needed to use temporal shell.
100% CR, 20% nav rating and Helmsmanship seems to be enough speed buffs, for the most part. I haven’t tested UI enough to know if it’s an improvement for certain builds, but none of my favorite scarab builds use UI. I’m not even sure scarab needs to elite helmsmanship or not.

_______________

About the Monitor, im going out on a limb here but I think people just find the ‘fit it with nothing but flak’ too effective of a build which is what fuels the distaste - which is in part because the AI still treat the full defensive build monitor like a threat. Or maybe it’s how the monitor is basically immune to most enemy frigates? Personally I don’t know what to feel on the Monitor.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2025, 12:07:31 PM by PixiCode »
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Alex

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #252 on: January 04, 2025, 01:03:10 PM »

The "right" way for allied ships to deal with it is just to not, and especially not waste flux shooting at it if there is another hostile ship around! I'm not sure how the AI priority works exactly, but I've noticed it tends to try to focus fire on smaller ships before big ones, possibly because of the small flux pool? There's no way for us to command the AI to ignore the thing without an avoid which has a lot of other implications for maneuvering etc, so it just leaves the player helpless to watch their ships do the wrong thing.

Targeting is primarily based on positioning, so it probably feels like the Monitor is the optimal ship to target because strafing relative to it will put the ship in the best possible position, or help it avoid being flanked, etc.

Hmm. Thank you for explaining, that makes sense. I'm not sure what the right answer is here, but I'll mull this over. (For example, an "Ignore", while maybe appealing - I'm not sure that wouldn't have some unintended consequences as far as the amount of micro etc, though of course command points already limit that... and trying to figure out whether to ignore something automatically seems like trouble, because getting that wrong would be even worse.)

Oh, that reminds me of the "eliminate and engage makes the AI fire at that ship if in arcs" suggestion, the same behavior as when a ship is R targeted and weapons are on autofire. I'd add that as a possibility for this thread, and it would help the monitor issue: being able to command the ships to "shoot at that thing, that one right there" would be a big help, as it allows counterplay.

Ahh, interesting, yeah. Wouldn't help the ship actually get in range of the target if it was focused on the Monitor, though (for an Engage), but - an Eliminate feels like it should already do that because the target will get set (as with R) a lot of the time, I think.
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #253 on: January 04, 2025, 01:34:47 PM »

I think if you try for too much balance you end up polishing off the things that actually make games fun to play!
This is something a lot of balance threads miss, imo. Starsector is a singleplayer game, and making everything fair and equal is a lot less important than making everything fun. In fact, i see small imbalances (like most battleships, or omega weapons, or most specialized cruisers, or phase frigates) as more of an in-game easy mode, the same way that you can just skip most of Inscryption's gameplay if you make a genuinely decent deck (that game has intentional balance holes all over the place).

+1

I am going to quote this in every balance thread from now on. I want to see the range of viable player strategies expanded, not reduced.

All this talk of nerfing stuff that isn't broken has me wondering, "exactly what problem are you trying to solve?" Afflictor P being at 6 dp doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the game. Railgun being 1 OP cheaper than Needler doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the game. Omen being good doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the game.

Fury's notable underperformance might reduce my enjoyment, and my ships being foolishly distracted by Monitor might be annoying. But I really like that something as weird and unusual as Monitor exists. I hate when games homogenize and same-ify everything in the name of balance.
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Alex

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #254 on: January 04, 2025, 01:42:12 PM »

I will say that there's a fine line to walk here, I think! A... balance? to find, if you will. If you don't care about balance at all, you likely end up with a mess. If you care about it too much, you might end up with something too homogenized and lacking fun and personality.

What I mean is, I wouldn't want the takeaway from this to be "don't nerf things", you know? Because I'll definitely be doing that, and you generally DO want balance, perhaps even at the cost of immediate fun in the short term, the way some overpowered things can be. Balance can lead to longer-term fun.

And on the Afflictor (P) example, maybe it's not hurting anyone, but it's also not particularly fun, so it's not something I'd personally value enough to keep as-is over applying the nerf bat to in the name of balance. (And, in fact, I just did this the other day.)
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