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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)  (Read 30650 times)

Megas

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #225 on: January 03, 2025, 02:10:45 PM »

When I evaluate ships, I tend to use the SIM, no skills and no s-mods because it is easy to test two equal sides (SIMs are unskilled, idea is to test unskilled vs. unskilled.)  In the campaign, I used Fury relatively early when am I generally limited to what I find and/or afford, my officers are low level (because not enough XP to level up more than once to see skills offered next time and save-scum if they are bad) and few if any s-mods.

When I tried Unstable Injector on Fury, the extra speed was not enough to help Fury (with high flux) escape from a pursuing enemy and backpedaling, and range was noticeably less.  I could not tell if it had more range than a Safety Override Fury just by looking (and I did not care to crunch numbers to find out for sure).  At that point, I swapped from Unstable Injector to Safety Override, and Fury was finally fast enough to backpedal away from enemies.
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Thaago

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #226 on: January 03, 2025, 02:50:28 PM »

When I evaluate ships, I tend to use the SIM, no skills and no s-mods because it is easy to test two equal sides (SIMs are unskilled, idea is to test unskilled vs. unskilled.)  In the campaign, I used Fury relatively early when am I generally limited to what I find and/or afford, my officers are low level (because not enough XP to level up more than once to see skills offered next time and save-scum if they are bad) and few if any s-mods.

...

I used to do a lot of testing this way too, often from the front missions screen. But I've found that some of the skills and S mods change how ships fight in a way beyond raw stats that can be cancelled by the enemy's raw stats, so its less useful than it used to be (unskilled vs unskilled is no longer a good stand-in for skilled vs skilled). Examples: phase ships (elite field modulation and the phase skill), big heavy ships (enemies do not gain enough speed to make up for the turn rate boosts), any missile ship (missile spec), any ship with a system that interacts well with system expertise... you get the idea. I'm really looking forward to the new sim (to totally not waste time on instead of doing actual battles...).


...
Regarding the Monitor - perhaps, but it's not a great point of reference if we're talking about balance :D

...

Monitor delenda est!
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tseikk1

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #227 on: January 03, 2025, 03:45:56 PM »

Balance is really quite good right now. Especially happy with escort package and missile autoloader. Wishing for other things like those in the future. However, there are still things that could use some tweaks. I would not call any of these "desperately in need of balance pass" but rather a wishlist-ish thing.

Omen
Overpowered. I'm convinced the ship system is the problem. 100% hit rate, hard flux, low flux cost, EMP, decent damage to frigate-grade armor and hull, clears fighters and missiles, low cd... the list goes on. 8 DP omen doesn't sound right, so I think the ship system should be nerfed in a way that hurts the shade as little as possible. I think EMP emitter damage against shields should be changed to soft flux.

Afflictor(p)
Overpowered. Simply too good at 6 DP, similarly due to its immensenly powerful ship system. Definitely deserving of 8DP deployment cost, so that the normal afflictor can stay as it is. Alternatively it could have its ordnance points drastically lowered, to 30 or so, so that it at least couldn't get all of AMB+max caps+two needlers.

Scarab
Underpowered. It was nerfed from 60 to 55 ordnance points in 0.95.1a, and while the nerf was deserved at the time, other ships and playstyles have caught up and surpassed the wolfpack tactics fleets of that time. As of now, scarab feels weak for 8 DP. It should have its 5 OP back. Another thing I would like to see on the scarab is to have its two back small energy slots given better firing arcs. At the moment I think they're best left empty, but changing the arcs to something like the middle slots on a centurion would make them usable, and likely open up some interesting new builds.

Railgun
Very slightly outperforms alternatives in the small ballistic slot. Was changed from 7 to 8 and then back to 7 OP before, so meddling with the cost is probably not a good idea. What I suggest is to lower its damage per projectile, then buff its firing rate and flux cost, so that its performance against shields is unchanged but performance against armor lowered.

IR autolance
While situational, when it's good it's amazing. Just a bit too good for how cheap it is. Moving from 8 to 9 OP would do the trick, I think.
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Thaago

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #228 on: January 03, 2025, 04:44:42 PM »

Huh, I found that the light needler outperforms the railgun in most fights when I did testing and I've switched over to using them on everything instead of them. Anyone else have opinions on this one?
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #229 on: January 03, 2025, 05:33:04 PM »

Huh, I found that the light needler outperforms the railgun in most fights when I did testing and I've switched over to using them on everything instead of them. Anyone else have opinions on this one?
Hmmmmmmm... Elaborate.
I can obviously be wrong. I would like to hear more about it

I might have a bias simply because I like the design of the Railgun... And I'm a bit of a hipster and hate specialist weapons. You know... IR Pulse Laser fan. Who'd have thought I'd prefer the generalist Kinetic over specialist one
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 05:34:48 PM by Killer of Fate »
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Thaago

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #230 on: January 03, 2025, 05:51:25 PM »

Well, I did some comparative tests where I would do the smalls on hammerheads, dominators (with Ballistic rangefinder), and a few others as either railguns or needlers, or sometimes a mix of both. Then I'd do some fights and see what did more actual damage (using detailed combat results). The light needlers usually (but not always) came out ahead. The kinetic amount done was similar, with a mild edge to the needler; armor damage was low for both, with a mild edge to the railgun; but the light needlers did much more hull despite having less penetration: they just landed a lot more hits. They had more effective uptime in the fights as well.

I think it comes down to the burst. Its really good and contrasts with the railgun having a fire delay instead.

[Edit]
I'll add that the difference isn't huge. It's not like light needlers are massively better than railguns, and it wasn't even true in every fight. But it was consistent enough for me to switch to them when I can.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 06:00:19 PM by Thaago »
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PixiCode

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #231 on: January 03, 2025, 06:00:41 PM »

Omen
Overpowered. I'm convinced the ship system is the problem. 100% hit rate, hard flux, low flux cost, EMP, decent damage to frigate-grade armor and hull, clears fighters and missiles, low cd... the list goes on. 8 DP omen doesn't sound right, so I think the ship system should be nerfed in a way that hurts the shade as little as possible. I think EMP emitter damage against shields should be changed to soft flux.

Afflictor(p)
Overpowered. Simply too good at 6 DP, similarly due to its immensenly powerful ship system. Definitely deserving of 8DP deployment cost, so that the normal afflictor can stay as it is. Alternatively it could have its ordnance points drastically lowered, to 30 or so, so that it at least couldn't get all of AMB+max caps+two needlers.

Scarab
Underpowered. It was nerfed from 60 to 55 ordnance points in 0.95.1a, and while the nerf was deserved at the time, other ships and playstyles have caught up and surpassed the wolfpack tactics fleets of that time. As of now, scarab feels weak for 8 DP. It should have its 5 OP back. Another thing I would like to see on the scarab is to have its two back small energy slots given better firing arcs. At the moment I think they're best left empty, but changing the arcs to something like the middle slots on a centurion would make them usable, and likely open up some interesting new builds.

Railgun
Very slightly outperforms alternatives in the small ballistic slot. Was changed from 7 to 8 and then back to 7 OP before, so meddling with the cost is probably not a good idea. What I suggest is to lower its damage per projectile, then buff its firing rate and flux cost, so that its performance against shields is unchanged but performance against armor lowered.

IR autolance
While situational, when it's good it's amazing. Just a bit too good for how cheap it is. Moving from 8 to 9 OP would do the trick, I think.
from top to bottom;

Omen is largely balanced at 6 DP, it is a master of support in a unique way for frigates which is great, but it has some key caveats.
1. Omen firepower is overall conditional. Antimatter blaster helps but makes omen risky from dying during the burst of flux. Without AMB, omen firepower is very slow but very reliable when compared to any brawler though especially TT Brawler which is one of the best frigates next to things like LP bralwer. Lasher, Vanguard, Scarab, Tempest.
2. Omen has horrifically low armor and hull. While this isn’t always the biggest deal for a frigate so long as it’s fast with good shields, any sort of burst damage is always a guaranteed death for Omen if it can’t escape in time. I routinely find Scarabs (I use them a lot) with some damage on armor and hull, still alive and kicking. I rarely see an Omen with damage; either it shield tanks or it dies.
3. Omen gets exponentially better the more of them you have since emp arc emitter ignores friendly hitboxes, but they need to get close and risk death to exploit this strength. Some ships will die if you get unlucky. Is that really so strong if it has the risk of losing ships with no real counterplay? Meh.
4. Omen emp arc emitter is easily overwhelmed by saturation missiles/fighters, making it a nearly helpless frigate. This isn’t a problem too often and you can attempt to mitigate it in a few ways, but it’s a key weakness. If omen emp arc emitter deals softflux damage I think it will be a ship I never take, ever. It’s  pretty helpless without that damage that allows it to hold its ground, I’d probably prefer using Centurions in that case.

However, if we have to nerf the Omen, I think a neat nerf/sidegrade would be to make the small missile a small synergy. This will both make for more possible builds and also nerf missile autoforge for the omen, the hullmod only applies to missile mounts, not synergy or composite or universal. Omen gets big value from it so I’d consider this overall a gentle nerf with something cool attached to it as well.

Scarab I disagree. I’m ignoring SO here because I haven’t used SO scarab enough to have a strong opinion, so everything I say here is about non-SO scarab. Scarab is sort of like the opposite of Omen, exceptionally powerful in small numbers but it doesn’t stack very well if you spam a lot of them. I’ve had the most success using 1-3 of them in a fleet, but depending on the build and your fleet’s playstyle i think up to 6 is reasonable. This is because temporal shell is absolutely busted but it has a key moment of weakness during its some 12 second base cooldown and low top speed for a high tech frigate (still a good speed though). The AI scarabs don’t seem to intelligently use temporal shell, so if you have a whole lot of scarabs it’s just pure luck if they will be able to support each other during their system’s downtime. However, if you only got a handful of Scarabs they are absolute monsters. They’re the ultimate PD frigate, far better than Omen and the ultimate frigate hunter killer, when you tell it to kill a frigate unless you have an avoid command nearby that frigate will be dead as quickly as a shade or afflictor could kill it, except Scarab doesn’t have to worry about beams picking away at it! Or as quickly as a LP Brawler, but with the added benefit of being able to be a PD ship simultaneously. Just ask me if you’d like more info, Scarab is  a pretty complex topic that I’ve been looking into for the past half a year. I wouldn’t give the Scarab any buffs.

It’s also absolutely gross if you pilot it yourself with neural link. Just, near infinite value. You can single-handedly kill all carriers and frigates all on your own and let your fleet handle the big boys. Slap on an ion cannon and you can even help disable the bigger ships at key moments.

Afflictor and Afflictor P I don’t really disagree but there’s a thread here that you may like to read and contribute to on that subject.

Railgun - I think this weapon is overvalued by players. It’s great but it has key weaknesses namely comparing it to the light Needler and the Light Autocannon.
It deals slightly less dps than light Autocannon per OP - 23.8 vs 25.
It has a chargeup which makes it slightly awkward to use which reduces the value of its perfect accuracy.
It has worse flux efficiency per dps than both, which is the biggest downside by far.

If you reduced its hitstrength I would almost never use the railgun and instead use the light Autocannon and Light Needler wherever possible. I already sometimes use LAC instead. Don’t get me wrong though, Railgun is still like one of the best small kinetics, I just don’t think it’s worthy of any big nerfs.

IR Autolance - I don’t think it needs any nerfs necessarily? It has this big issue where it will very often use too many of its very limited magazine shooting at shield when it’s at max magazine, making it have less total magazine in practicality. It also tends to use up its small magazine against armor most of the time. It’s mostly just HEF which makes it insane.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 06:06:47 PM by PixiCode »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #232 on: January 03, 2025, 06:26:42 PM »

Well, I did some comparative tests where I would do the smalls on hammerheads, dominators (with Ballistic rangefinder), and a few others as either railguns or needlers, or sometimes a mix of both. Then I'd do some fights and see what did more actual damage (using detailed combat results). The light needlers usually (but not always) came out ahead. The kinetic amount done was similar, with a mild edge to the needler; armor damage was low for both, with a mild edge to the railgun; but the light needlers did much more hull despite having less penetration: they just landed a lot more hits. They had more effective uptime in the fights as well.

I think it comes down to the burst. Its really good and contrasts with the railgun having a fire delay instead.

[Edit]
I'll add that the difference isn't huge. It's not like light needlers are massively better than railguns, and it wasn't even true in every fight. But it was consistent enough for me to switch to them when I can.
Strange. But it seems... Logical
The charge up does screw destroyers and frigates a lot. By the time the 700 range is shot. The frigate and/or destroyer probably is half-overcharged...
I guess what we could do is... Give Railgun 100 more range
And then you could lower Light Needler's cost to 6.
But that feels experimental. I feel like it's a preference.
3 additional OP vs slightly more damage

I don't know...
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #233 on: January 03, 2025, 06:51:42 PM »

The autolance is fine just by itself, but it becomes much stronger due to its interaction with s-modded magazines.

S-mags are good, but they are a little overrated. 50% increased recharge rate sounds amazing on paper, but you also have to pay the flux cost for those charges. You are still gated by flux limitations. Double autopulse with s-mags is going to use up a similar amount of flux as double plasma, and the double plasma isn't eating up a precious s-mod slot (not saying double autopulse is bad, it's just an example).

The irautolance has fantastic flux efficiency due to being a fragmentation weapon, but is gated by its low recharge rate. This means that unlike most other magazine based weapons, the increased flux cost from s-mags is almost irrelevant. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It can be a kind of learning experience for players, where they discover that a cheap hullmod and a cheap weapon can work together to melt hull. It's a very satisfying combination when you put it together.

Its also not as if the autolance is crowding out other medium energies either. Almost all the other options have their place, and the heavy burst laser is probably getting buffed next patch anyways. That just leaves the ion beam a little too expensive for a support weapon. The effect is fine, but maybe drop the flux cost down to 120/sec? Still 3 more op than a graviton and 45 more flux/sec.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 07:01:11 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #234 on: January 03, 2025, 07:02:48 PM »

Omen
Overpowered. I'm convinced the ship system is the problem. 100% hit rate, hard flux, low flux cost, EMP, decent damage to frigate-grade armor and hull, clears fighters and missiles, low cd... the list goes on. 8 DP omen doesn't sound right, so I think the ship system should be nerfed in a way that hurts the shade as little as possible. I think EMP emitter damage against shields should be changed to soft flux.
You have to invest a lot to make the Omen's system actually useable against decent a volume of fighters. It only uses its system as PD or against ships without/lowered shields, i.e. it will never fire at shields alone. I'm pretty sure a no s-mod no skill Omen loses to the sim Condor that has Broadswords.
It's low armor, hull, and PPT means it will never be an endurance ship. I would like an armor buff just to keep it from exploding on my capitals.
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PixiCode

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #235 on: January 03, 2025, 08:12:14 PM »

I don't think Omen should get any buffs, either. Buffing its armor and hull feels like it misses the point of making sure it has weaknesses to make room for its strengths. In theory Omen only uses its arc emitter rarely in 1v1s, but on the actual battlefield they use it a lot more frequently. I couldn't actually tell you why that is tbh, but I think there's more to its system ai flag than some sim observations will show otherwise.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #236 on: January 03, 2025, 10:54:04 PM »

Omen
Overpowered. I'm convinced the ship system is the problem. 100% hit rate, hard flux, low flux cost, EMP, decent damage to frigate-grade armor and hull, clears fighters and missiles, low cd... the list goes on.

If I did my math right, EMP Emitter has similar DPS to a Pulse Laser for basically no flux cost. Take that, Tempest.

Idea: Make the EMP Emitter a deployable that doesn't move. This still makes it useful in its intended role of clearing fighters and missiles, but enemy ships can simply disengage away from it. It also fixes the Shade, since EMP Emitter cannot be used when phased, which causes all sorts of AI issues.

Double autopulse with s-mags is going to use up a similar amount of flux as double plasma

Double Autopulse with S-mags has sustained flux use lower than a single Plasma Cannon...

The kinetic amount done was similar, with a mild edge to the needler; armor damage was low for both, with a mild edge to the railgun; but the light needlers did much more hull despite having less penetration: they just landed a lot more hits.

I have noticed needlers do surprisingly high amount of hull damage before. I always assumed this was because of the armor damage reduction cap(85%) interacting weirdly with a high volume of low-damage projectiles.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 10:57:55 PM by Lawrence Master-blaster »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #237 on: January 03, 2025, 11:11:52 PM »

I don't think the omen is too strong compared to other high-tech frigates, at least early on. The arc emitter's baseline performance is fine. It powers up significantly in the mid game thanks to sysex effectively increasing both the range and rate of fire by 50%. On top of that, it benefits nicely from elite TA (as all EMP weapons do).

The tempest is also getting buffed next patch, so I'm not going to recommend any omen nerfs for now.

Double Autopulse with S-mags has sustained flux use lower than a single Plasma Cannon...

I know, but it's a magazine weapon. The *sustained* stats don't tell the full story. It builds up much more flux at the start of an encounter, then much less if the fight drags on. The boosted recharge rate also means that the "full burst" portion lasts several seconds longer.

Not that it matters, it's only tangential to the point I was making. The point is that s-mags provides great DPS, yes, but you still have to pay the flux for that.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 11:19:53 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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PixiCode

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #238 on: January 03, 2025, 11:24:08 PM »

If I did my math right, EMP Emitter has similar DPS to a Pulse Laser for basically no flux cost. Take that, Tempest.

Sounds about right. I think the flux efficiency is somewhere around 0.26? It costs 500 flux to use and deals about 18-20? shots per use, that's how I figured it. Anyway, I got some thoughts about how good this really is for the Omen. We all know the upsides, here's the downsides.

Arc emitter deals damage through arcing, which is absolutely horrible against armor and by extension hull since none of the damage gets focused onto one spot. It deals a lot of EMP damage so this is fine, but pulse laser at least deals good hull dps
Arc emitter disables other weapons equipped while in use. You're using 6 DP to shoot 1 hyper-overpowered pulse laser that you can't focus on one target or deal much hull damage with. That's pretty good, but important to keep in mind.
The ship arc emitter is attached to, Omen, only has small energies and one small missile. The missile is great and actually why I suggested changing it to a small synergy, nerfing its SYNERGY (haha get it?) with the missile autoloader hullmod. It either needs to use AMBlaster which puts it at risk - a very good option, very high impact per mount but a bit risky, or be stuck with two small energies.

On further thought, I would also make sure the synergy mount doesn't converge with the other two small energies. Maybe even make the missile mount a hardpoint that points behind it, making a torpedo like hammer or reaper something you wouldn't expect the AI to use.

Also, Shade is excellent. I don't think has all sorts of AI issues. The ship can phase while emp arc emitter is online, which while unfortunate is overall fine. Having EMP arc emitter on fast phase frigate is great since you can sneak in more arcs past shields than an Omen could. With system expertise, the emp arc emitter will basically always be ready once it unphases too since the cooldown is so short and phase is 3x timeflow. Its only real issue is how it takes a brief moment for the first EMP arc to fire off. Which is probably for the best, do we really want Shade to constantly phase and then shoot an emp arc with field modulation elite? Sounds a bit crazy!

I love Shade.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 11:27:54 PM by PixiCode »
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Draba

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Re: Anything desperately in need of Balance Pass next version (Add yours here)
« Reply #239 on: January 03, 2025, 11:27:16 PM »

The apogee has been in a really boring place for awhile, i used to use it as a midgame efficiency focused brawler flagship way back and it's just never worth using like that anymore, just slap a HIL and squall on and forget about everything else. And it's rare enough that unlike the fury which is in a much better place it barely gets brought up.
Most cruisers in general are a bit weaker this version, escort destroyers have much more firepower and pretty good to extremely good durability.
Paired with their speed they are destroyed less often than cruisers.


Huh, I found that the light needler outperforms the railgun in most fights when I did testing and I've switched over to using them on everything instead of them. Anyone else have opinions on this one?
They are basically interchangeable, railgun tends to do more hull for me and it's a bit better against paper armor so that's my default.
Needler is great for Medusa/Afflictor.


I don't think the omen is too strong compared to other high-tech frigates, at least early on. The arc emitter's baseline performance is fine. It powers up significantly in the mid game thanks to sysex effectively increasing both the range and rate of fire by 50%. On top of that, it benefits nicely from elite TA (as all EMP weapons do).

The tempest is also getting buffed next patch, so I'm not going to recommend any omen nerfs for now.
Omen does stand out a bit right now, but yeah not that much compared to the other high tech frigates (Omen, Glimmer, Scarab, even Wolf are pretty decent with Tempest getting buffed next).
It's a tiny target with great shields and speed so it doesn't get randomly popped or worn down.
Frigates on the slower end with weaker shields are the ones generally not worth bringing.


I guess what we could do is... Give Railgun 100 more range
And then you could lower Light Needler's cost to 6.
But that feels experimental. I feel like it's a preference.
3 additional OP vs slightly more damage
In case that's not a joke: railgun and lneedler are already much, much better than the rest of S ballistics.
Further buffing them would be silly.
(LAC is good but needs lots of mounts and has bad projectile speed+spread combo on top)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2025, 12:33:16 AM by Draba »
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