Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 21

Author Topic: Anubis-class Cruiser  (Read 42522 times)

memeextremist

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #165 on: December 26, 2024, 10:13:18 AM »

doubt I'll use it tbh. I don't use the retribution either
Logged

prav

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #166 on: December 26, 2024, 10:21:30 AM »

Does Diktat have an aggressive fleet composition? Beyond just broadly "midline", I don't really see a strategy in how their fleets are set up, in contrast to the Hegemony's "Onslaught/Legion wrecking ball with some Condors hiding behind it for support and attrition" and the Path's aggressive SO spam that overwhelms small exploration fleets that rely on defeat in detail. Brawler and Centurion are a relatively defense-oriented set of frigates, with (non-SO) Hammerhead and Sunder being very technical ships, and Eagle/Falcon being very conservative and support-oriented (at least when not running a lance or SO build). Executor is a good anchor, but I don't really see it getting used well by their fleets.

They have an awful dichotomy with a fleet doctrine of Aggression 4 and mostly standoff ships like the Executor and Eagle - they should want to drag out the battle, but instead their reckless captains will get themselves surrounded and killed one by one. And only some of them are reckless, so they don't get that overwhelming assault effect you see from the Path or the Remnant.

Characterization-wise the Diktat favoring aggression is great, but the results are pretty dire (and not in a "victory at any cost" way).

I don't think this is mainly a Diktat problem though, it's more an Aggression 4 / Reckless officer problem (or characteristic? Bit of a trap option then) - they really love charging off on their own without backup. Great if they all do it at once or if it makes sure your SO Aurora is kicking ass. Very dubious when it's a randomly selected officer for your fleet's lynchpin ships.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2024, 10:24:27 AM by prav »
Logged

Bungee_man

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #167 on: December 26, 2024, 01:01:29 PM »

Sindrian Diktat has 4 level Aggression. Meaning they get assigned Aggressive and Reckless officers as opposed to Steady the way Hegemony, Persean League and Independents do

It doesn't really mesh with their standoffish, support and attrition-oriented ship pool, which was what I thought you were referring to. They might be more interesting with steady AI in and of itself - it's a much better fit for their builds and doctrine, and yeehaw cowboys that rush ahead chaotically doesn't really fit the Diktat's unique aesthetic of uniform, monochrome ships designed around the polar opposite of burstiness.

Honestly, they might be a decent fit for being the only aggression 2 faction in the game - a society that mercilessly punishes individuality with recent military actions involving punching down at worse-equipped pirates should have pilots and officers that act decisively as a unit when the numbers favor them, and freeze up in situations that demand initiative, rather than the other way around.



doubt I'll use it tbh. I don't use the retribution either

I've thought about this comparison, but I don't think it lands. The Retribution is a fragile, unforgiving, high-aggression ship that the AI plainly cannot use and the player cannot really use any better than he could use any of the easier-to-operate fast warships, even after he's hit the skill ceiling. I'd definitely use it if it were more powerful than the Aurora/Odyssey to justify the extra difficulty, but ATM it'd feel masochistic.

IMHO the Anubis will be a lot more fun and easier to use than most of the existing light cruiser pool. Its system makes it survivable and easy to reposition, it can't be tied up with fighter swarms like the Aurora, and there are a number of payload options for it that let it do something significant. It'll take some experimentation to see if it's got a support role the AI can figure out, but Alex pricing it in the new player range makes it a very attractive option when starting out.




They have an awful dichotomy with a fleet doctrine of Aggression 4 and mostly standoff ships like the Executor and Eagle - they should want to drag out the battle, but instead their reckless captains will get themselves surrounded and killed one by one. And only some of them are reckless, so they don't get that overwhelming assault effect you see from the Path or the Remnant.

Characterization-wise the Diktat favoring aggression is great, but the results are pretty dire (and not in a "victory at any cost" way).

I don't think this is mainly a Diktat problem though, it's more an Aggression 4 / Reckless officer problem (or characteristic? Bit of a trap option then) - they really love charging off on their own without backup. Great if they all do it at once or if it makes sure your SO Aurora is kicking ass. Very dubious when it's a randomly selected officer for your fleet's lynchpin ships.

I agree on both counts. I talk more about the first further up, but I also think that AI style should never be a 'gotcha' - the game shouldn't say "Oh, you put an aggressive officer in a Condor, that's the wrong choice and it will make unconditionally bad decisions". Instead, aggressive should mean "as smart as we can make it, and breaks ties by assuming it should  try to close the fight out sooner", while cautious should mean likewise in the opposite direction.
Logged

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3437
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #168 on: December 26, 2024, 02:23:18 PM »

Sindrian Diktat has 4 level Aggression. Meaning they get assigned Aggressive and Reckless officers as opposed to Steady the way Hegemony, Persean League and Independents do

It doesn't really mesh with their standoffish, support and attrition-oriented ship pool, which was what I thought you were referring to. They might be more interesting with steady AI in and of itself - it's a much better fit for their builds and doctrine, and yeehaw cowboys that rush ahead chaotically doesn't really fit the Diktat's unique aesthetic of uniform, monochrome ships designed around the polar opposite of burstiness.

Honestly, they might be a decent fit for being the only aggression 2 faction in the game - a society that mercilessly punishes individuality with recent military actions involving punching down at worse-equipped pirates should have pilots and officers that act decisively as a unit when the numbers favor them, and freeze up in situations that demand initiative, rather than the other way around.
Yeah... That's why they need to get Drover, Afflictor, Shade, Fury, Wolf, Shrike, etc.
A mixture of Midline and High Tech ships would somewhat fit in my opinion their lore better. Sindrian Diktat is based off military dictatorships of modern world from my perspective. And without saying any names, soldiers of those tend to display some psychotic tendencies which are reflected in aggressive, reckless doctrine.

I admit that giving Steady doctrine to everyone is kind of a boring thing to do. Steady is generally a doctrine that should be interpreted as true Cautious. Whereas Cautious should be interpreted as "useless". And if your fleet is playing it cautiously, chances are there will be few situations in which there will be an opening for the fleet to actually progress. Combat in Starsector isn't marked by playing it safe, and forming formations. It's just that players are usually playing from such a higher hand against their opponents, that the game no longer becomes about winning a close fight, and more about fulfilling the perfectionist need to look as good as possible at the end of one. Even though generally it doesn't matter.

Steady doctrine is something the Hegemony uses, and this is why they are horrible at countering the Astral of all things. You can surround and pummel them from all sides. And as soon as you employ any heavy hitting weaponry, their heavily armoured ships die very easily. It's what makes Hegemony actually what it is lore-wise.

The Domain was always a highly incompetent military organism. One that failed to adapt and instead used lobbying and misinformation to maintain their military doctrine. It became over time most likely less of an actual powerhouse of ideals, and more of a place for old men to earn money with their dated beliefs. This is why cruiser school was constantly sabotaged. This is why Cobra never made it out of the prototype phase. Etc.

But in the end Hegemony dies. The only reason we feel like they're stronger than everyone is cause A - they have XIV variants which are just stronger variants of standard ships that they pay almost 100% more money for (hence the economic mingling of the Domain aspect). And they have the strongest officers (which is another economic mingling). If you gave Sindrian Diktat 5 in Officers doctrine, they would be just as effective as the Hegemony generally speaking. If not for the fact that their capital ship is pretty trash.

Also, one thing I would like to complain about. Why does Sindrian Diktat military use the Executor? The Executor is described by the player character when speaking with Spider Man as an experimental military ship. Like? Are we to assume Sindrian Diktat just reworked its entire doctrine around LG ships for the LG, but for the Sindrian Diktat they specifically left out all the LG ships, but they kept the Executor for... Why? You'd think of all the things, the LG Centurion would be like more accessible, then the ultimate display of Andrada's prowess or whatever... What happened to all the Conquests? Did they just dump them in a river?
Logged
off to write another nightmare

Twilight Sentinel

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #169 on: December 26, 2024, 02:55:14 PM »

A small number of phase ships was how I always added variety to Dictate fleets on my personal mods.  They're the only faction I could reasonably add phase ships to without diluting down the rest of their identity.
Logged

Doctorhealsgood

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #170 on: December 26, 2024, 04:12:45 PM »

Giving cautious to the faction with exclusive access to the G I G A C A N N O N would be the decision of all time for sure.
Logged
Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

prav

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #171 on: December 26, 2024, 04:34:19 PM »

The answer is to give all Diktat ships safety overrides.

Actually maybe some Unstable Injectors on their variants wouldn't hurt.
Logged

Bungee_man

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #172 on: December 26, 2024, 04:56:06 PM »

Yeah... That's why they need to get Drover, Afflictor, Shade, Fury, Wolf, Shrike, etc.
A mixture of Midline and High Tech ships would somewhat fit in my opinion their lore better. Sindrian Diktat is based off military dictatorships of modern world from my perspective. And without saying any names, soldiers of those tend to display some psychotic tendencies which are reflected in aggressive, reckless doctrine.

"They're bad guys" -> "bad and war crimes mean aggressive doctrine" feels kind of shallow and cartoonish to me. Action movies aside, the respective doctrines of the Korean war make for a more interesting comparison - especially since there are pretty overt tones of "sci-fi North Korea / late USSR" in the Diktat. The more individualistic Americans emphasized a doctrine of taking initiative when orders were not available and attacking when the opportunity offered itself, whereas their less individualistic opponents did not, on the basis that their officer training was not compatible with that kind of behavior. If you're looking to avoid a coup by ambitious officers, a strong emphasis on waiting for orders before acting is vital, whereas a nation of hard-to-govern cowboys with a diffuse power structure doesn't worry as much about the possibility of Colonel Billy becoming a generalissimo.

There's a lot of really interesting stuff on the competing doctrinal ideas East and West of the Iron Curtain that would be excellent for designing interesting military dichotomies. Even little things, like the "reinforce the forces making the most progress" versus "reinforce the forces making the least progress" debate, give unique character to historical militaries in little ways - sometimes not in the directions one might expect.

Quote
The Domain was always a highly incompetent military organism. One that failed to adapt and instead used lobbying and misinformation to maintain their military doctrine. It became over time most likely less of an actual powerhouse of ideals, and more of a place for old men to earn money with their dated beliefs. This is why cruiser school was constantly sabotaged. This is why Cobra never made it out of the prototype phase. Etc.

The Domain had internal power struggles, yes, but I don't think it was implied to be incompetent. It crushed all opposition, continually innovated, and one of its surviving battlegroups, even with no outside support, is the dominant faction in the sector despite facing what might amount to the worst possible conditions (a rogue megacorp showing up with countless AI armadas, the headquarters of the galaxy's major religious opposition, and a well-organized anti-reconsolidation polity in the form of the League).

IMO the Domain is portrayed as highly competent, just not unrealistically so (like many superstates in other sci-fi). It's the premier human government, but it's still run by humans.

Quote
If you gave Sindrian Diktat 5 in Officers doctrine, they would be just as effective as the Hegemony generally speaking. If not for the fact that their capital ship is pretty trash.

I don't think that's true, but officer training is far and away the best thing to put points into. IMO Tri-Tach should rework its doctrine away from ship quality and towards better officers - better captures the aesthetic of a used-future sci-fi megacorporation that ignores OSHA regulations but fosters a fiercely cutthroat selection process for potential military personnel.

As a side bonus, it'd make finding an early flagship more interesting. At present, it's very easy to hunt down an Aurora or similar player-friendly high tech fast warship with few to no D-mods and great logistics stats, leading a lot of players to ignore midline and low-tech and converge around the same strategy after nothing else fits together quite as easily. That'll get more important with the Anubis, which is an ideal player flagship and is available even earlier due to the lower price.

Quote
Also, one thing I would like to complain about. Why does Sindrian Diktat military use the Executor? The Executor is described by the player character when speaking with Spider Man as an experimental military ship.


That's a good thing to point out. I have to figure that line was written before the Executor's role was finalized. He talks like it's still in development. When I read it, I thought I was going to get some lore on an upcoming experimental ship, or something.

Quote
Like? Are we to assume Sindrian Diktat just reworked its entire doctrine around LG ships for the LG, but for the Sindrian Diktat they specifically left out all the LG ships, but they kept the Executor for... Why? You'd think of all the things, the LG Centurion would be like more accessible, then the ultimate display of Andrada's prowess or whatever... What happened to all the Conquests? Did they just dump them in a river?

That's a whole other can of worms that's been talked to death here, but for the record I agree with you on making the LG ships viable for player use. It does seem kind of silly that the Lion's Guard is 100 percent incorruptible and not a single one of its vessels finds its way onto the black market, given how they're portrayed the rest of the time.



Giving cautious to the faction with exclusive access to the G I G A C A N N O N would be the decision of all time for sure.

Honestly I think it would hammer home 'doctrinal inefficacy' much more elegantly than all of their ships being completely overfluxed. It's the sort of thing that genuinely would not show up on paper.



The answer is to give all Diktat ships safety overrides.

Actually maybe some Unstable Injectors on their variants wouldn't hurt.

I've toyed around with something like this. I like the idea of setting up a basis for the Lion's Guard's "doctrine" that genuinely makes sense, and then having their zaniness come from the obscene difficulty of implementing some grand, pure, theoretical ideal under the conditions inherent in a collapsing state within a collapsed state.

Like, Andrada was a Hegemony officer, and the Hegemony liked big fleet anchors supported by carriers. Maybe Andrada saw one too many Hegemony battle lines get outflanked or outmaneuvered, or just shot to pieces by up-gunned Auroras and Hyperions popping up in places they couldn't reach, and decided that the future of warfare involved a steadily advancing wall of reasonably maneuverable battleships escorted by a replaceable set of overdriven support ships that rely on the anchors to soak up damage while they themselves dish it out. "Special modifications" might involve stripping the armor off of a ship to support an extra set of vents, on the basis that, in theory, these ships will just duck behind their charges instead of taking hits anyways. Could throw in a PPT reduction and bundle it with their version of solar shielding, and say that various compromises necessary to get the whole deal working rely on these ships operating in-system and taking advantage of the nearby red giant and readily-available reinforcements to even out the waiting game.
Logged

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3437
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #173 on: December 27, 2024, 03:56:01 AM »

The answer is to give all Diktat ships safety overrides.

Actually maybe some Unstable Injectors on their variants wouldn't hurt.
people are having too high expectations of NPC ships. There is only so much Diktat can do with the doctrine and game restrictions that are applied to them...
But them having more ships and whatever wouldn't hurt... On the other hand giving them SO and Unstable Injectors wouldn't probably help their storytelling. They're supposed to be a common military with an emotionally unstable leadership. Not suicidal like LP or Pirates
Logged
off to write another nightmare

Doctorhealsgood

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #174 on: December 27, 2024, 08:42:38 AM »

I just don't understand why the tictac would go SO.
Logged
Quote from: Doctorhealsgood
Sometimes i feel like my brain has been hit by salamanders not gonna lie.

Bungee_man

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #175 on: December 27, 2024, 11:22:12 AM »

I just don't understand why the tictac would go SO.

The idea is that it'd make the overfluxed LG builds more fun to fight against and make the ships themselves usable in player hands. Maybe not the best solution, but it'd alleviate those two issues.
Logged

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3437
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #176 on: December 27, 2024, 12:11:55 PM »

Yeah... That's why they need to get Drover, Afflictor, Shade, Fury, Wolf, Shrike, etc.
A mixture of Midline and High Tech ships would somewhat fit in my opinion their lore better. Sindrian Diktat is based off military dictatorships of modern world from my perspective. And without saying any names, soldiers of those tend to display some psychotic tendencies which are reflected in aggressive, reckless doctrine.

"They're bad guys" -> "bad and war crimes mean aggressive doctrine" feels kind of shallow and cartoonish to me. Action movies aside, the respective doctrines of the Korean war make for a more interesting comparison - especially since there are pretty overt tones of "sci-fi North Korea / late USSR" in the Diktat. The more individualistic Americans emphasized a doctrine of taking initiative when orders were not available and attacking when the opportunity offered itself, whereas their less individualistic opponents did not, on the basis that their officer training was not compatible with that kind of behavior. If you're looking to avoid a coup by ambitious officers, a strong emphasis on waiting for orders before acting is vital, whereas a nation of hard-to-govern cowboys with a diffuse power structure doesn't worry as much about the possibility of Colonel Billy becoming a generalissimo.
I look at it differently, it's not that Steady = "waits for orders, cause they're a coward". Steady translates to being sane. The reason why Sindrian Diktat would dive into Reckless wouldn't be because evil = aggressive. It's because these people serve a faction that undermines the value of their lives. And expects dedication to their cause. And if these people don't believe in said cause, then they are going to still possibly act unhinged due to the fact that serving a regime such as the Sindrian Diktat will take a negative toll on their psyche. Or something...
Logged
off to write another nightmare

Candesce

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #177 on: December 27, 2024, 12:17:03 PM »

If there's ever a moment where you could have attacked, but didn't, anybody who wants your rank can get it by calling you a coward. Or a traitor.

They get promoted over your corpse either way.
Logged

Bungee_man

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #178 on: December 27, 2024, 02:15:58 PM »

I look at it differently, it's not that Steady = "waits for orders, cause they're a coward". Steady translates to being sane. The reason why Sindrian Diktat would dive into Reckless wouldn't be because evil = aggressive. It's because these people serve a faction that undermines the value of their lives. And expects dedication to their cause. And if these people don't believe in said cause, then they are going to still possibly act unhinged due to the fact that serving a regime such as the Sindrian Diktat will take a negative toll on their psyche. Or something...

That seems like an elaborate way of saying "bad guys === insane === aggressive". It doesn't really work that way, as far as I've seen - authoritarian regimes run the gamut in terms of doctrine, but tend to skew towards a reduced emphasis on individual initiative.



If there's ever a moment where you could have attacked, but didn't, anybody who wants your rank can get it by calling you a coward. Or a traitor.

They get promoted over your corpse either way.

Again, that seems like something out of a cartoon. A bunch of bad guys charging in for "glory" without any tactics isn't the sort of thing that usually occurs, outside of some very niche scenarios, usually involving the promise of a highly desirable afterlife (hence the Luddic Path's presence as the only max-aggression faction, though that's also because maximum aggression synergizes perfectly with their fleet choices).

In any case, to avoid thread derailment, I've split this into suggestions: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=31252.msg458624#msg458624
Logged

Killer of Fate

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3437
    • View Profile
Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #179 on: December 27, 2024, 02:49:03 PM »

I look at it differently, it's not that Steady = "waits for orders, cause they're a coward". Steady translates to being sane. The reason why Sindrian Diktat would dive into Reckless wouldn't be because evil = aggressive. It's because these people serve a faction that undermines the value of their lives. And expects dedication to their cause. And if these people don't believe in said cause, then they are going to still possibly act unhinged due to the fact that serving a regime such as the Sindrian Diktat will take a negative toll on their psyche. Or something...

That seems like an elaborate way of saying "bad guys === insane === aggressive". It doesn't really work that way, as far as I've seen - authoritarian regimes run the gamut in terms of doctrine, but tend to skew towards a reduced emphasis on individual initiative.
it's obviously more complicated than that, but there needs to be some sort of a spine to hang things on. Generally, when I redesign faction doctrines, I make them all aggressive, cause fighting aggressive/reckless or aggressive + reckless doctrines is more interesting and generally has higher success rates. Cause steady can be too easily exploited for their cowardice
Logged
off to write another nightmare
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 21