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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: Anubis-class Cruiser  (Read 36105 times)

BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2024, 12:44:28 PM »

a silly meme
[close]
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Kragh

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2024, 12:46:07 PM »

I really like the ship design and I actually already use Paladin sometime (including on paragon). All those complex thoughts on how to make players use the 2 paladins intended in the design... I have to echo other people and ask why not simply make them build-in?
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Sandor057

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2024, 12:50:14 PM »

I am rather unsure about this.

Additions are good, for sure, and specialized ships have a place in a fleet environment, but having a ship specifically tailored to make Paladin work, as it were (and by extension make high-tech PD good, I guess) is kinda sweeping the problem under the rug (Paladin being outclassed in the large energy slots).

Anyway, I'd very much like to try it and see how it is.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2024, 12:52:33 PM »

huh, giant Xyphos equipped with Xyphos

honestly this thing looks *** dope

and it fills the niche of assault High Tech groups that get countered by missiles and fighters heavily due to the lacklustre performance of PD Laser and etc.
It could be a really neat synergistic ship to reinforce Aurora/Fury groups

the name is cool... But considering it's a lesser support ship, calling it Anubis feels too triumphant. Anubis feels like a name you'd give to a capital ship that comes over to conclude the engagement. It'd be funny if it was called something like the Stork (though Drover and Heron being Midline carriers would disrupt that theme I suppose)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2024, 01:03:43 PM by Killer of Fate »
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2024, 12:53:22 PM »

I...really dislike this.

The kludge of options to try and make people use Paladins really doesn't seem how it should be done. If you're so concerned with it, just build-in one on a central point so that the two large energies can work, it's not like a Paragon where a massive pile of beams and range buffs exist to make the tach lances ship-deleters.

Well, let's wait until we get our hands on the ship. Alex says it has some fun options, so I'm more than happy to give it a shot before complaining about it. Let's not forget that one of the "big changes" is just buffing paladins directly.

Still, it makes sense to design a ship specifically for paladins because big part of their problem is that not many ships are designed to use them. They only work in turret slots, and ships with large energy turrets usually need them as their main weapon. Ironically, one of the best places to put a paladin right now is the prometheus mark 2. Double hvd + squall + HIL is a competent weapon setup that can afford to use its other hybrid slot on a paladin.

I really like the ship design and I actually already use Paladin sometime (including on paragon). All those complex thoughts on how to make players use the 2 paladins intended in the design... I have to echo other people and ask why not simply make them build-in?

As for building them into the hull... maybe? It looks like right now you could choose between tachyon + double paladin, or with enough investment potentially a single paladin in the front + double HIL. Building them in takes away that flexibility.
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happycrow

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2024, 01:04:13 PM »

I love Paladin and Pilum, even if the official meta relegates them to "meme" status. Finally, they can both be put on the same ship and not need anything else!  ;)
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2024, 01:09:12 PM »

I really like the ship design and I actually already use Paladin sometime (including on paragon). All those complex thoughts on how to make players use the 2 paladins intended in the design... I have to echo other people and ask why not simply make them build-in?
the blog mentions you can still use 3 Tachyon Lances at the risk of creating a highly vulnerable ship. And I assume there are still some builds that would work. Like Autopulse Lasers with Safety Overrides
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Alex

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2024, 01:10:52 PM »

It's... surprisingly similar to a ship I was making. A high tech-cruiser with large energy turret (mine only had one) and a fighter bay. Needless to say, I like it!

*EDIT*
Wow, I also had the idea of only giving the ship a large turret and no mediums or small to encourage the use of a paladin... now I REALLY like it.

Nice! That does sound like fun; though i seems like it would take even more wrangling to make the Paladin attactive over a primary-weapon option.


Neat!

One thing I'd suggest, though, having piloted mod ships with some strong thematic similarities: Consider making the ship system grant a speed boost to (nearby) fighters. It just feels bad if you hit your special ship system of zoominess and suddenly your fighters get left behind.

(Now, okay, this is a cruiser. Maybe it's slow enough that even with Temporal Shell, fighters can keep up. In which case: Good job, no further anything needed. But I still feel it's worth mentioning this potential issue now, while it might still be addressed if it's an actual issue for this ship.)

Ahh, that's a good point! Tried it just now, and if you activate TS and just go in one direction (so, worst-case) the Xyphos loses about a ship's length of distance, so, still very comfortably close to the ship by the end. Good thing to check, though!


Mom come pick me up I'm scared.

(Hah!)


"Look at what they need to mimic a fraction of our power!"

The tachyon lance said to the HIL while watching Alex make 20 different design changes to encourage players to actually use the paladin.

Fair, fair.



3 heavy energies, temporal shell- man I see why it's so heavily nerfed
I wonder how it'd go shield shunted

Hmm, probably not very well? It has a strong (0.6) shield and its armor is not great.


Cool ship!
But, I have to ask: the hullmod seems very complex just to funnel players into equipping two Paladins. It basically changes the entire weapon meta for just this one ship. Why not just make them build-in weapons?
I agree with Gothars; this seems like a very convoluted way to get players to use Paladins. So why not make them built in and dial back the nerfs?

I thought about it, actually! The answer is "Gigacannon, and potentially other weapons with a similar profile". Having the slots still be something you can fill with whatever you want just keeps open more possibilities. For example, you could put 5 IR Autolances on it. Would that be good? Probably not, but maybe it could have a role as a dedicated finisher, and TS plays very nicely with that, so *maybe*. Or you could leave one or two slots empty and focus on making it a more effective one-lance support ship. Or any number of things! It's just fun to keep it more open-ended, and I think "one ship changing the weapon meta" is actually a *good* thing here! It's the point, really, to give players something fresh.


Also, even though you mentioned that players usually choose missiles or ballistics for universal mounts, you just made that choice for them in this ship, what with the extreme difference between slightly slower missile fire rate and DOUBLE flux generation ... >.>

("Slightly slower missile fire rate" is, um, half. But you're right that many energy weapons won't be competitive in those slots.)


Ah, a blog post on the same day Christmas break is starting! Truly wonderful. I'd been looking forward to one for quite some time  ;D

I really like the way it looks. The size and all of the restrictions on flux and weaponry make suspension-of-disbelief-sense to me. And with the stats and weapons loadout it brings, it reminds me of low tech in a way, what with being underfluxed and really needing to bring PD. But in a distinctly high-tech way. Yeah, I'm going to have fun testing this one out.

(Also the teasers for "as opposed to being [REDACTED]" are very exciting, I can't wait)
(Also also does the first draft remind anyone else of a Kite (S)-class?)

Thank you :D


Well, that's... interesting. An "overpowered" cruiser held in check by flux dissipation/capacity, both of which are roughly in the middle between Shrike and Fury?

I feel like it will be OP in player hands but weak in AI hands because of the Temporal Shell which requires "planning".

It's possible! Though it seems to do alright as an escort; part of this is to do with the Paladin being able to shoot over friendlies, which makes it a lot more forgiving in terms of ship positioning.

As for the gameplay aspect of this ship, I wish that instead of all that, it could only fire a single large energy weapon at a time.  I suppose there would still remain an issue with tachlances, where you could fire them one after another constantly, but, uh, is that really such a big issue?

Well - yes? It's basically what the AI does if you put them in alternating mode - which I needed to do to get it to fire, due to the massive flux use of the linked group firing - and Anubis spam absolutely erased full-alpha-core Remnants!


...I am reminded of the fact that I use Scarabs in antifighter / point defense duty for if there's a large volume of fighters. Temporal Shell + IPDAI'd Tactical Lasers does pretty well against fighters & missiles even under AI control. Can also just not build in the hullmod to force fighter targeting priority with the Tacticals. It seemed... overkill in most situations? Time-dilated beam weapons can be very effective at killing fighters.

The Anubis itself seems generally very interesting! For piloting one myself, I'd be curious about comparatively flux-efficient energy weapons eg Autopulse or HILs. I... suspect APLs would be generally decent, though I'd also be unlikely to mount more than two. Funny full strike configuration with 3 APLs, 2 Typhoon Launchers and a Longbow wing though...

Very likely to just flux out instantaneously. It'd be funny to try, though.

Hmm, that's a neat idea! Yeah I suspect it would be extremely glass-cannon, but that might just mean it'd be high risk/reward in player hands.

Well that's neat! A cruiser with temporal shell is going to be interesting for sure, especially with the flux gymnastics to make triple lance non-viable. Reducing the value of vents/caps is different from anything else which is fun. I wonder though... Safety Overrides?

The SO dissipation bonus would be affected by the hullmod, too! And the main thing that keeps triple-lance in check is the capacity, though more dissipation would definitely help. Also, with the range being so much lower, focus fire - which is what makes it so overwhelming when the ships are massed - would be much less of an issue. Would be interesting to see how it does, though!


If you're so concerned with it, just build-in one on a central point so that the two large energies can work, it's not like a Paragon where a massive pile of beams and range buffs exist to make the tach lances ship-deleters.

(Per the above, in testing this just doesn't bear out. The TLs delete stuff very easily when massed without all the other stuff.)

Like maybe it works better in sim but a pile of debuffs is enough for me to relegate this to the trash. Maybe it'd see use if Astrals got buffed and I decided on a carrier+support high-tech fleet, but at the moment? Not worth it.

The debuffs exist in the larger context of the ship, which has a number of things going for it, so I don't think it makes sense to dismiss it just because it has the debuffs.


I am rather unsure about this.

Additions are good, for sure, and specialized ships have a place in a fleet environment, but having a ship specifically tailored to make Paladin work, as it were (and by extension make high-tech PD good, I guess) is kinda sweeping the problem under the rug (Paladin being outclassed in the large energy slots).

Anyway, I'd very much like to try it and see how it is.

*thumbs up*

I mean, the Paladin itself *did* get buffed as part of the process here :)


the name is cool... But considering it's a lesser support ship, calling it Anubis feels too triumphant. Anubis feels like a name you'd give to a capital ship that comes over to conclude the engagement. It'd be funny if it was called something like the Stork (though Drover and Heron being Midline carriers would disrupt that theme I suppose)

That's Tri-Tachyon marketing for you!


I love Paladin and Pilum, even if the official meta relegates them to "meme" status. Finally, they can both be put on the same ship and not need anything else!  ;)

Haha!
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Loyso

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2024, 01:20:05 PM »

Cool ship!
But, I have to ask: the hullmod seems very complex just to funnel players into equipping two Paladins. It basically changes the entire weapon meta for just this one ship. Why not just make them build-in weapons?
Better yet, why not buff Paladin so you don't have to make 8 lines-of-text hullmod, to make players actually use it on one ship in the game?
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2024, 01:20:41 PM »

Are we going to get anymore previews of other ships?  I've been waiting for a somewhat boring pirate cruiser since we were discussing such a thing like a year ago and have been waiting to see if it went anywhere since.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2024, 01:24:12 PM »

I've gotta say there is some pretty unique design choices here. Normally a ship's ordnance points are penalized when it has a fighter bay, but the anubis has some of the highest OP out of any cruiser while being cheaper to deploy. On top of that, temporal shell is one of the most powerful ship systems. It's an extremely overpowered ship that's entirely kept in check by an extremely penalizing hullmod.

Now I've heard that the champion was originally designed to make the paladin more useful... don't know if that's true or not but most of the autofit options have paladins so it sounds right. It almost works for that role but the ship system being HEF kinda kills that option. Large missile + medium ballistics would be a fine weapon package to go with your paladin... but then HEF would only be boosting your point defense which is a huge waste of potential.

I guess Anubis is take two on the idea of a point defense cruiser? Either way, I like paladins, and I'm excited to see them finally put in some work.
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Dri

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2024, 01:29:19 PM »

NGL, that hullmod feels straight terrible and a think a lot of newish players will look at it and be like...ehhhhh? They will have no idea that the ship is meant for Paladins.

I think you're just gonna have to build them in like someone else suggested—you already have Monitor that hast two built in flaks so at least there will be a pattern there.
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ZetA

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2024, 01:35:06 PM »

Cool ship!
But, I have to ask: the hullmod seems very complex just to funnel players into equipping two Paladins. It basically changes the entire weapon meta for just this one ship. Why not just make them build-in weapons?
Better yet, why not buff Paladin so you don't have to make 8 lines-of-text hullmod, to make players actually use it on one ship in the game?
The issue, in my opinion, lies less in that Paladin being bad (i think it's pretty good at what it does) and more so that there's just not many ships with large energy slots that could use a paladin.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2024, 01:37:03 PM »

It'd be really funny if half of those new redacted ships added in this update would be Derelicts. And we also got a huge Derelict overhaul...
Although it would also make my newly made mod in which Derelicts are buffed pointless xD
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Loyso

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2024, 01:37:27 PM »

Better yet, why not buff Paladin so you don't have to make 8 lines-of-text hullmod, to make players actually use it on one ship in the game?

Just from the top of my head, 5 DP Glimmer with 5 tac lasers and S-modded PD AI has 375 DPS and 1k base range(not counting hullmods and skills bonuses as anyone could take them). And it has HEF! Let's suppose Anubis would cost 20 DP. That's 4 Glimmers or 1500 DPS. Double paladin has lower 1334 DPS, lower base range AND RUNS OUT OF CHARGES (in 6-9 sec). So while anubis has 1300 DPS for short bursts of time, Glimmer spam can just activate HEF in the same short bursts of time and blow Paladin out of the water with 3k dps.

P.S. yeah, paladin makes explosions and shoots over allies, and yeah you can install expanded mags, adv optics, takes skills and so on, but it seems like a bit too much investment for the job.
P.P.S 750 Paladin base range vs 1k tac laser/LRPD base range isn't a good look either
« Last Edit: December 20, 2024, 01:40:07 PM by Loyso »
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