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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: beams  (Read 6752 times)

PixiCode

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Re: beams
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2024, 09:40:03 AM »

Beams are fine. HSA solved no problem and created more.
The only thing I wanted is endurance buffs, im thinking about hardened subsystem give more PPT and reducing CR reduction rate, efficiency overhaul for CR cost perbattle if the ship is unarmed/lightly armed by low recoil weapon like machineguns and beams.

What problems did HSA cause?
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: beams
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2024, 10:06:29 AM »

Beams are fine. HSA solved no problem and created more.
The only thing I wanted is endurance buffs, im thinking about hardened subsystem give more PPT and reducing CR reduction rate, efficiency overhaul for CR cost perbattle if the ship is unarmed/lightly armed by low recoil weapon like machineguns and beams.
HSA might as well not exist
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Megas

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Re: beams
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2024, 10:21:19 AM »

HSA is nice for fully upgraded burst PD builds.  Biggest obstacles are getting elite PD on officer and spending s-mod on Expanded Magazines.  I would use HSA burst PD Wolves and Scarabs if I did not need to waste SP on officers without refund.  Also made use of HSA Graviton occasionally.

As for beams, the small beams aside from burst PD lack stopping power and take too long to kill things.  At least Mining Laser is cheap.  The rest between Mining Laser and burst PD cost too much OP and are too similar to each other and Mining Laser.  Graviton needs something; more damage, cheaper OP cost, changed to PD (to exploit its missile deflection), changed to 600 range hard flux weapon (without need of HSA).

Graviton deflecting missiles, I rarely see it, and when I do see it, it is almost always Eagle vs. something, lined up almost perfectly.  If I really want missile defense beams, I ought to use PD beams, not Gravitons, although there is only heavy burst laser (and maybe small weapons) for medium PD.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 10:30:12 AM by Megas »
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HeimrArnadalr

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Re: beams
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2024, 05:50:09 AM »

Im surprised people find beams do disappointing. Outside of tac lasers, i feel like they all have their own interesting niches

They do have their own interesting niches, but for most of them, that niche is not killing things.
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Pizzarugi

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Re: beams
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2024, 10:50:01 AM »

I think a lot of OP's issues with beams would be less of an issue if they just did hard flux damage. Outside of some very niche builds, I don't think anybody wants to straight up kill beam weapons by chopping off a bunch of range so they can actually do something to shields. This is even more important when you also consider the Omega large beam which needs high range to get the most out of it.

Personally I won't use beams unless I use mods that increase range in some form or another to counter the hard flux hull mod.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 10:54:44 AM by Pizzarugi »
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Thaago

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Re: beams
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2024, 01:51:40 PM »

Hmmm, how do you stop kiting strategy that way? Or is that not needed? Or is there some compromise between range and hard flux better than the current balance?

For example, currently a graviton + 4x tac laser medusa is weak against anything larger than a cruiser, but completely unkillable (1400 range + phase skimmer without counting gunnery implants). Turning the 700 soft flux into hard would make it a whole lot more powerful!

Beams have lower DPS than pulse weapons per mount, so would lowering them to 700/800/900 in the small/medium/large mounts work? That gives them a 200 range advantage over pulse weapons and brings them in line with ballistics of the same size class (more or less). Advanced optics would have to have a hard look at it: its already a top tier hullmod and it would become even better. Down to +100 range? Just gone? I'm not sure.

With the above, beams get reduced to low DPS, very high accuracy weapons. That's not a terrible niche I suppose. Kind of like energy HVDs (comparing a 800 range graviton brought to 1000 with AO to current HVD, the new graviton is a little behind in DPS, probably very ahead in accuracy that would even that out, and costs much less flux. Otoh, much less hull damage).

This got kinda rambly, sorry. On the one hand, I think beams could be balanced for hard flux; on the other, I don't think they need to be to be useful. Having them be hard flux would simplify how weapons and flux works (all weapons do hard again, no loophole). That's good for explaining and new player understanding, but it also removes the mechanic so makes combat a little less rich.

For example, the graviton is currently a debuff beam: -200*shield efficiency flux per second and -5% shield efficiency. Whether or not its good enough at that role is another matter (hard to tell, I think its close though), but if it did hard flux it would leave the niche of debuff beam and just be a weapon.
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Üstad

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Re: beams
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2025, 12:12:25 PM »

Hmmm, how do you stop kiting strategy that way? Or is that not needed? Or is there some compromise between range and hard flux better than the current balance?

For example, currently a graviton + 4x tac laser medusa is weak against anything larger than a cruiser, but completely unkillable (1400 range + phase skimmer without counting gunnery implants). Turning the 700 soft flux into hard would make it a whole lot more powerful!

Beams have lower DPS than pulse weapons per mount, so would lowering them to 700/800/900 in the small/medium/large mounts work? That gives them a 200 range advantage over pulse weapons and brings them in line with ballistics of the same size class (more or less). Advanced optics would have to have a hard look at it: its already a top tier hullmod and it would become even better. Down to +100 range? Just gone? I'm not sure.

With the above, beams get reduced to low DPS, very high accuracy weapons. That's not a terrible niche I suppose. Kind of like energy HVDs (comparing a 800 range graviton brought to 1000 with AO to current HVD, the new graviton is a little behind in DPS, probably very ahead in accuracy that would even that out, and costs much less flux. Otoh, much less hull damage).

This got kinda rambly, sorry. On the one hand, I think beams could be balanced for hard flux; on the other, I don't think they need to be to be useful. Having them be hard flux would simplify how weapons and flux works (all weapons do hard again, no loophole). That's good for explaining and new player understanding, but it also removes the mechanic so makes combat a little less rich.

For example, the graviton is currently a debuff beam: -200*shield efficiency flux per second and -5% shield efficiency. Whether or not its good enough at that role is another matter (hard to tell, I think its close though), but if it did hard flux it would leave the niche of debuff beam and just be a weapon.
HSA doing %75 hard flux on 500 range, %50 hard flux at 750 range and %25 hard flux at beyond 750 range would make that hullmod more useful and still letting beams being beams, no %100 hard flux yet still can be overwhelming when massed.
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Pizzarugi

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Re: beams
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2025, 06:33:20 PM »

Hmmm, how do you stop kiting strategy that way? Or is that not needed? Or is there some compromise between range and hard flux better than the current balance?

For example, currently a graviton + 4x tac laser medusa is weak against anything larger than a cruiser, but completely unkillable (1400 range + phase skimmer without counting gunnery implants). Turning the 700 soft flux into hard would make it a whole lot more powerful!

Beams have lower DPS than pulse weapons per mount, so would lowering them to 700/800/900 in the small/medium/large mounts work? That gives them a 200 range advantage over pulse weapons and brings them in line with ballistics of the same size class (more or less). Advanced optics would have to have a hard look at it: its already a top tier hullmod and it would become even better. Down to +100 range? Just gone? I'm not sure.

With the above, beams get reduced to low DPS, very high accuracy weapons. That's not a terrible niche I suppose. Kind of like energy HVDs (comparing a 800 range graviton brought to 1000 with AO to current HVD, the new graviton is a little behind in DPS, probably very ahead in accuracy that would even that out, and costs much less flux. Otoh, much less hull damage).

This got kinda rambly, sorry. On the one hand, I think beams could be balanced for hard flux; on the other, I don't think they need to be to be useful. Having them be hard flux would simplify how weapons and flux works (all weapons do hard again, no loophole). That's good for explaining and new player understanding, but it also removes the mechanic so makes combat a little less rich.

For example, the graviton is currently a debuff beam: -200*shield efficiency flux per second and -5% shield efficiency. Whether or not its good enough at that role is another matter (hard to tell, I think its close though), but if it did hard flux it would leave the niche of debuff beam and just be a weapon.
HSA doing %75 hard flux on 500 range, %50 hard flux at 750 range and %25 hard flux at beyond 750 range would make that hullmod more useful and still letting beams being beams, no %100 hard flux yet still can be overwhelming when massed.

I like this idea. You don't lose the range on the beams, but their hard flux capability only shines when you get close.
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kaoseth

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Re: beams
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2025, 08:01:24 PM »

Beams are fine. HSA solved no problem and created more.
The only thing I wanted is endurance buffs, im thinking about hardened subsystem give more PPT and reducing CR reduction rate, efficiency overhaul for CR cost perbattle if the ship is unarmed/lightly armed by low recoil weapon like machineguns and beams.
HSA might as well not exist

HSA/Phase Lance Hyperion has been my best performing non-SO Hyperion build.  The microscopic short range means getting the 30% bonus from energy expertise on each shot, and hyperion can get it self into and out of range with no problem.

If I were to try and fix HSA, I'd kill the range penalty but half the damage, and see where that lands.  I'd like to keep the range if possible.   
 


Here's my thoughts on beams.
Tactical Laser: It needs a total rework.  It's basically irrelevant. 
Gravitons: +50% more damage at a 50% more flux cost. 
Tachyon Lance and HIL - Fantastic, keep them as they are. 
Phase Lance - I prefer conceptually for them to be 1000 range.  But I understand why alex shortened the range.  Just look how succesful IR Autolance is at how low damage the IR Autolance actually is.  Now imagine it hitting 10x harder on shields/armor and that's the phase lance. 
PD (all of them) need some help, but Alex said he's already addressing it.
Paladin - Is getting help, but mainly it's problem is the perception.  You give up a large slot for what?  However, as most people haven't played with them, they don't know how strong they are.  Paladins are stronger defensively than Devastators, and with S-mod E-mags, they go 50% harder.  They are to clear nearly every fighter/missile from it's field of fire.  And they are now getting buffed.  The new Anubis brings 3 mounts designed intended for Paladins, and I think Alex hasn't really fully explored what this means.  Normally the Meta is that you don't bother with mounting any PD, but Paladin Anubis takes that concept and legitimizes it, as it can single highhandedly handle all the PD needs from anything near by.   There's a video out there where someone coded in what is reported an Anubis could do, and made a video of two Anubis completely neutralizing all the Ziggerat's sparks. 



DEM.  Directed Energy Missiles.  Soft flux Beams on missiles.  These I consider a failure.  If you use it, you must use them fleet wide, as low numbers of DEM do nothing as they are all soft flux.  But once you surpass a threshold your fleet goes really hard with them.  Then you run out of ammo and you're fleet is totally out of gas and gets destroyed.  If the other fleet has long distance PD, you're also dead in the water.  Or if they have a phase ship baiting all the shots, you hit that out of gas quickly.  On top of that Graviton DEMs are almost entirely worthless in the AI's hands.  So I'd like to see DEM changed.  I'd like DEM to be something between between normal weapons and omega missile weapons.  So I'd like to see them have infinite ammo at a slow recovery, while costing a high amount of flux to "charge" the missile when it gets reloaded.  So no free lunch, you have to make time to eat the flux for charging the missile, but you also don't run out or do hard damage.  I think that's a good compromise, provided some extra tweaking on fire rates.  And it gives an interesting dynamic in that it costs flux after it fires, not before, because it stores in the rack in a charged and ready to fire state. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2025, 08:04:07 PM by kaoseth »
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helias

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Re: beams
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2025, 08:09:03 PM »

The main issue I have with beams is that they don't feel impactful even when they are. This isn't a big deal for most of them, but it definitely is for the Graviton. Alex eaid earlier that the "flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters" and it's true. But it shouldn't feel invisible, that's the problem. I think Gravitons should change the colour of the shields they're hitting, the effect intensifying with two or three on the same target. Kind of like an Afflictor's Entropy Amplifier, but only on the shield.
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eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef

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Re: beams
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2025, 08:55:58 PM »

Paladin - Is getting help, but mainly it's problem is the perception.  You give up a large slot for what?  However, as most people haven't played with them, they don't know how strong they are.  Paladins are stronger defensively than Devastators, and with S-mod E-mags, they go 50% harder.  They are to clear nearly every fighter/missile from it's field of fire.  And they are now getting buffed.  The new Anubis brings 3 mounts designed intended for Paladins, and I think Alex hasn't really fully explored what this means.  Normally the Meta is that you don't bother with mounting any PD, but Paladin Anubis takes that concept and legitimizes it, as it can single highhandedly handle all the PD needs from anything near by.   There's a video out there where someone coded in what is reported an Anubis could do, and made a video of two Anubis completely neutralizing all the Ziggerat's sparks. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gamIK9elzw4 video in question. It used two Anubis with a level 6 and 7 officer, a Heron loaded up with pure flash, and a Conquest piloted by him with 11 personal combat skills. Despite all of this the Ziggurat's most still connected multiple times.

The same thing has been achieved by a single Grendel.

Also, you double posted.
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crvt

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Re: beams
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2025, 09:08:26 PM »

Paladins are nice. I like to pop one on my Radiants, specially if I'm already using s-modded expanded mags(for either VPDs, autopulses or IR autolances).
Hate using any small PDs on capitals, and well, while Paladin doesn't show good numbers in terms of individual damage, the number of shot down missiles and fighters is extremely high. That keeps the rest of the guns shooting at actual ships and increases overall uptime nicely.
The fragmentation damage is also not terrible. If the ship is the type where sparing a single large energy isn't necessarily detrimental to overall damage and flux utilization, Paladin does just fine.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: beams
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2025, 12:58:24 AM »

Paladins are stronger defensively than Devastators, and with S-mod E-mags, they go 50% harder.
Side tangent, but while Paladins are great against everything, and slightly better against missiles, nothing erases fighter swarms anywhere near as good as Devastator bursts.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: beams
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2025, 02:15:26 AM »

The main issue I have with beams is that they don't feel impactful even when they are. This isn't a big deal for most of them, but it definitely is for the Graviton. Alex eaid earlier that the "flux pressure is kind of invisible, but it's really solid and it matters" and it's true. But it shouldn't feel invisible, that's the problem. I think Gravitons should change the colour of the shields they're hitting, the effect intensifying with two or three on the same target. Kind of like an Afflictor's Entropy Amplifier, but only on the shield.
beams already feel visually intense though... I feel like the issue is that they don't do enough damage to make up for the amount OP and slots they cost...
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SCC

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Re: beams
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2025, 02:55:30 AM »

There's a video out there where someone coded in what is reported an Anubis could do, and made a video of two Anubis completely neutralizing all the Ziggerat's sparks. 
The same thing has been achieved by a single Grendel.
Grendel and Anubis don't have to be enemies. They can be friends! They can fight together!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ckcro9uOmc
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