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[BigBrainEnergy]

Ever since the buff to burst lasers, there's very little reason to use regular pd lasers or long-range pd lasers. It's fine for it to be generally preferred, given that it's the premium option, but the others are too far behind and deserve a bit of love.

The lrpd already had its cost reduced. It's fine at 4 op. I'd like to see it get an increase in beam speed. It's subtle, but that difference between burst lasers striking instantly and the lrpds taking half a second will add up over a battle. The problem becomes more pronounced the more you increase its range, which is ironic given it's explicitly the "long range" option.

Normally "instant" speed beams are saved for burst weapons like the tachyon or burst laser, but now we have the IRAL which is a sustained beam that also has this property. The LRPD doesn't have charges, sure, but for a "long range" option to lose a larger chunk of its dps when you increase the range doesn't feel right.

On the other hand, the basic pd laser can drop to 3 op. That is all.


*EDIT*
I don't want to buff the dps of these weapons because that will put us in an endless loop of buffing pd, then buffing missiles and fighters to keep up, then buffing pd, etc. The buff for the lrpd is targeted at improving what it's supposed to be good at: point defense from a long range. The damage output of the basic pd laser is fine, but not worth as much as a vulcan. It also feels a bit redundant having two beam pd options at the exact same price point.

[Princess of Evil]

Basic PD laser is worse than the mining laser at the moment, which is just hilarious on so many levels.

[prav]

That's because the Mining Laser buff overshot the target.

I do like the suggestion to increase PD beam speed further.

[Ptirodaktill]

 PD weapons are weird in Starsector. We have real PD that work like PD - burst PD, Heavy burst laser, vulcan, flak. We have SO weapons that looks like PD weapons, but serve better as anti-shield weapons - LMG and less effective HMG. And we have Devastator canon that look like PD weapon, but is usualy deployed as the most flux-effective anti-armor solution on flux starved ships. And we have memes - PD, LRPD lasers that looks cool but do nothing. And Paladin that you won`t see often cause large energy slot is so scare you don`t waste it on PD.
 

[Megas]

That's because the Mining Laser buff overshot the target.

Even Mining Laser today is underpowered for PD.  It is more useful for weapon-linking or auto-firing exploitation, and it is cheap on OP and ballistics ships can use it.

If anything, (LR) PD Lasers need a buff (and not Mining Laser getting nerfed).  Probably lower OP cost.  Maybe 3 OP.  So that player is not paying a lot more OP for a modest DPS buff over Mining Laser.

For energy PD, it is burst PD or bust.  At least Mining Laser is cheap enough for be a (bad) budget option.  LR/PD Laser are not.  The only thing going for LR PD is range, and only if I need it to stop Reckless ships (that I want PD on) from getting too close to enemies.

[Killer of Fate]

we can use the increase of damage over time mechanic...

Beams have this thing that when they charge up, the damage is dealt via a root calculation. Meaning that the damage increases rapidly at the end, but before reaching the charge up conclusion, it's very little.

If I were to buff PD Laser, I would give it 1 second duration of charge up, currently it's 0. But give it way higher damage. Meaning it would be able to kill fighters and nearby targets somewhat more effectively, but be worse at killing missiles.

The LR PD laser on the other hand should have its range reduced to 600 units, but be given an EMP package of 200 EMP per second. (For comparison Ion Cannon has 800 per second, Ion Beam has 400). This EMP package can be restrained by not giving it arcing like Ion Beam.

But these buffs would honestly be insane.

I think PD Laser isn't really as underpowered. But maybe giving it 100 damage, and giving LR PD Laser 75 wouldn't be a bad idea.

The next thing we should work on is Tactical Laser.

The issue though is the fact that the general balance of Starsector is established on energy weapons being trash. And doing something about it might topple it over.

When reworking beam weapons I have some ideas... But eh, now is not the time.

[Doctorhealsgood]

PD weapons are weird in Starsector. We have real PD that work like PD - burst PD, Heavy burst laser, vulcan, flak. We have SO weapons that looks like PD weapons, but serve better as anti-shield weapons - LMG and less effective HMG. And we have Devastator canon that look like PD weapon, but is usualy deployed as the most flux-effective anti-armor solution on flux starved ships. And we have memes - PD, LRPD lasers that looks cool but do nothing. And Paladin that you won`t see often cause large energy slot is so scare you don`t waste it on PD.

Even if you wanted to use paladin it there is almost NO ship able to use it to its full potential because turreted large energy is even more scarce.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

I do like the suggestion to increase PD beam speed further.

Beams having speed at all is, as kids would put it, skull emoji.

[Killer of Fate]

PD weapons are weird in Starsector. We have real PD that work like PD - burst PD, Heavy burst laser, vulcan, flak. We have SO weapons that looks like PD weapons, but serve better as anti-shield weapons - LMG and less effective HMG. And we have Devastator canon that look like PD weapon, but is usualy deployed as the most flux-effective anti-armor solution on flux starved ships. And we have memes - PD, LRPD lasers that looks cool but do nothing. And Paladin that you won`t see often cause large energy slot is so scare you don`t waste it on PD.

Even if you wanted to use paladin it there is almost NO ship able to use it to its full potential because turreted large energy is even more scarce.

Champion, Paragon, Brilliance (understandably rare), Radiant (understandably rare), Prometheus MKII (?)...

The reason why u don't use it, is cause there is no reason to use it. There are no Squall + Harpoon spammers in the game. Starsector doesn't have fighters and missiles overpowered enough, especially after Squall nerf, to make it worth using. It's better to just spec into damage and not care about PD. That's why so many builds just take token PD like Mining Lasers, and then go fully into shields.

I do like the suggestion to increase PD beam speed further.

Beams having speed at all is, as kids would put it, skull emoji.

beam speed exists somewhat to reduce eye strain, imo... If you put Graviton Beam at 100000 speed and give it a bright glow, the shield flickering will create an incredibly obnoxious epileptic effect.

That's why the only beams that have infinite speed are the ones that attack in bursts. Like Tachyon, IR Lance, Hydra, etc. Meanwhile the long-term ones that are constantly present have slower speed. Gazer, Graviton, Tactical Laser, etc.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Ever since the buff to burst lasers, there's very little reason to use regular pd lasers or long-range pd lasers. It's fine for it to be generally preferred, given that it's the premium option, but the others are too far behind and deserve a bit of love.

The lrpd already had its cost reduced. It's fine at 4 op. I'd like to see it get an increase in beam speed. It's subtle, but that difference between burst lasers striking instantly and the lrpds taking half a second will add up over a battle. The problem becomes more pronounced the more you increase its range, which is ironic given it's explicitly the "long range" option.

Normally "instant" speed beams are saved for burst weapons like the tachyon or burst laser, but now we have the IRAL which is a sustained beam that also has this property. The LRPD doesn't have charges, sure, but for a "long range" option to lose a larger chunk of its dps when you increase the range doesn't feel right.

On the other hand, the basic pd laser can drop to 3 op. That is all.

The metric where the PD lasers should be considered good enough, is when one PD or LRPD laser can reliably destroy one salamander. LRPD works most of the time thanks to its range but could get a beam speed buff to be more consistent. PD fails as the salamander tends to stay out of its range until the very last moment. I would prefer if the PD laser got a buff to 500 range same as Bust PD which handles salamanders easily.

[Killer of Fate]

Ever since the buff to burst lasers, there's very little reason to use regular pd lasers or long-range pd lasers. It's fine for it to be generally preferred, given that it's the premium option, but the others are too far behind and deserve a bit of love.

The lrpd already had its cost reduced. It's fine at 4 op. I'd like to see it get an increase in beam speed. It's subtle, but that difference between burst lasers striking instantly and the lrpds taking half a second will add up over a battle. The problem becomes more pronounced the more you increase its range, which is ironic given it's explicitly the "long range" option.

Normally "instant" speed beams are saved for burst weapons like the tachyon or burst laser, but now we have the IRAL which is a sustained beam that also has this property. The LRPD doesn't have charges, sure, but for a "long range" option to lose a larger chunk of its dps when you increase the range doesn't feel right.

On the other hand, the basic pd laser can drop to 3 op. That is all.

The metric where the PD lasers should be considered good enough, is when one PD or LRPD laser can reliably destroy one salamander. LRPD works most of the time thanks to its range but could get a beam speed buff to be more consistent. PD fails as the salamander tends to stay out of its range until the very last moment. I would prefer if the PD laser got a buff to 500 range same as Bust PD which handles salamanders easily.

No...

Just use ITU. Buff its damage instead.

[FooF]

Burst PD being better than PD Laser isn't necessarily a reason to buff the PD Laser (power creep, anyone?) but what could get looked at are the breakpoints of killing a missile.

Let's use a Harpoon as a "typical" missile. It has 150 HP and is slow-ish. A Mining Laser would need 5 seconds to kill it and a PD Laser needs 2, if we talk base stats. There's no way the Mining Laser has 5 seconds on target, even it has an extra 150 range. However, 2 seconds on target for the PD laser is still probably too long. LRPD needs 3 seconds and with 800 range might actually be the sweet spot, though there's no guarantee it has its full range to work with if the enemy ship is closer than that. Burst PD does 128 damage per burst, so it takes two bursts to kill one (very nearly only needing one) but generally speaking, it will get the job done. At base values, one could argue that the PD laser is potentially needs a little range or a little more DPS to be worthwhile, especially since it costs 4 DP vs. the Mining Laser's 1. However, a single Mining Laser isn't ever going to stop a Harpoon. The PD Laser and LRPD might. The Burst PD will, if it has 2 charges.

Thing is, adding extra damage to missiles is laughably easy with either skills or hullmods. The Point Defense skill is going to add 50% more damage, as will IPDAI. S-modded Advanced Turret Gyros adds 25%. Just having 100% CR adds 10% damage and Energy Weapon Mastery will add some small-to-moderate +damage to the beams. All this to say that Energy PD is rarely at base values. If a ship has the PD skill or IPDAI, now a PD laser only needs 1.33 seconds to kill the harpoon and the LRPD only needs 2. Burst Lasers shoot the Harpoon down in 1 shot. Yet, the Mining Laser still needs 3.3 seconds, still probably too long but for 1 OP, what do you expect?

You can't just bump up DPS, in general, either. LRPD already encroaches on the Tac Laser and the PD Laser has the same 75 DPS at half the flux cost. Bonuses to missiles/fighters would be the way I'd go about it. Personally, I'd adjust the Small Energy PD lineup to something closer to this:

Mining Laser - leave as-is. No bonuses to missiles/fighters but base DPS feels pseudo-competitive for the cost.
PD Laser - reduce to 50 base DPS, +100% to missiles/fighters (33% increase vs missiles over current but 50% worse as a general-purpose weapon)
LRPD - reduce to 25 DPS, +100% to missiles/fighters (same as current but is 1/3rd as effective as the Tac Laser in the same role)
Tac Laser - leave as-is. By far the most general-purpose now.
Burst PD - leave as-is.

Skill/hullmod bonuses multiply the base DPS before the inherent bonuses, bringing them to current levels. For example, PD Laser with PD skill would have a (50*1.5) * 2 = 150 which is the same as current against missiles but only 75 DPS against hull/shields. All-in-all, Energy PD would be more specialized, the PD Laser receives a moderate buff as an actual PD platform, the Tac Laser is more attractive by proxy and Burst PD remains the Elite go-to if you have the OP to spare.

[Killer of Fate]

@FooF nobody sane is going to use Point Defence skill to increase PD Laser damage. Every ship that uses Energy PD has twice as much more valuable targets to achieve than having enough damage on PD Laser to stop missiles which don't even really exist. Or can be countered by a stronger shield... Like Hydra spam. (ps. edit and can't be countered by even upgraded PD)

Also IPDAI is also a stupid idea (edit: no offence, please don't take this post personally). It costs so much OP, and sure, it boosts damage and damage against fighters, cause it causes PD to ignore flares... But there are so many other important threats to deal with, and its increase is minuscule for what you pay when you are a High Tech ship that freaking needs as many capacitors and vents as it is physically possible... For a better shield.

And making PD Laser and LR PD Laser deal bonus damage to missiles and fighters is stupid... Why? Tactical Laser is literally the worst weapon in the game. I have never seen ANYONE ever USE IT... NEVER... It's so bad... The whole concept of beams needs to be just straight up reworked... Cause all they do is create freaking... Bleh...

Like reduce their range to 800, and give them 10 seconds charge up time. And then triple, quadruple, staduple their damage. Make Graviton Beam have 800 range and deal 250 Kinetic damage for 300 flux after 11 seconds charge up. Make Tactical Laser deal 200 damage for 100 flux after 15 seconds charge up, but also have 800 range. Power creep? Cause it'll be stronger than IR Pulse Laser? Oh no... So sad... :C Nobody likes that weapon either, give it 600 range.

PD Laser and LR PD Laser just need straight up damage buffs. And I wouldn't mind weapons like Mining Laser, Light Mortar, Light Assault Gun receiving also just straight up damage buffs. Same could kinda go for something like LMG or DLMG, though there stuff should be executed in a slightly more complicated manner. Cause these weapons have an identity to fulfil.

There are things in the game that make sense. Like missiles not being substituted with medium ballistics in a proper manner. But then there are also just straight up non-functional concepts... Like PD Lasers being really bad at their job, to the point that people think of them as just being not worth the effort. And only equip token PD to make the AI not act paranoid.

Players will not invest in IPDAI and PD skill until PD Lasers are at least basic at fulfilling their purpose. That's just... A waste of a skill... It won't save it anyway... It's better to just get something else instead. Like s-modded Extended Shields, SO, Front-Shield Conversion, etc.

HOWEVER, this does only apply to HIGH TECH (ps edit OR DOES IT!?)

The situation for Midline is somewhat different. But usually I rarely see people apply proper PD grids there too. However, this is kinda complicated, cause Midline fleet compositions are somewhat rare, beyond just... Conquest spam? Maybe I'm not paying attention though. However there too I think it's mostly Mining Lasers, Locust and shield upgrades.

This PD Laser, Heavy Burst, LR PD underperformance is causing players to generally not at all invest into any form of PD... Which is kinda interesting... In how insane it actually is.

[Dadada]

+100% to missiles/fighters

Maybe another "PD" damage type instead? thinking.png
I am half serious.

[prav]

Bump it up to 400%, give it some snazzy yellow icon.