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Author Topic: Ships I don't like  (Read 5136 times)

Killer of Fate

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2024, 10:48:24 AM »

Invictus - Invictus with Orion Device would be a 45 DP ship. It needs to have something very powerful to warrant its dreadnought name and 60 DP cost. It doesn't scream glass cannon to me at all. Also why would it stay away from combat with such armor and hull stats? That seems like a waste of a big capital.

I meant the LIDAR Array screams glass cannon. Why would it have the longest range of all weapons otherwise? It even has a 10-second cooldown, it's like Starsector equivalent of a sniper rifle. But then for some reason the sniper rifle is given to the bomb demolitions guy.
for the same reason Paragon does...
Cause it can't move.
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Hyde

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2024, 11:02:48 AM »

Invictus - Overnerfed. I actually thought it was fine before. It's 60 DP and requires a insane amount of money to run for just one ship. Its burn speed also sucks.

Champion - I don't know. In most cases, I'd rather have two sunders over one champion. The beam build is pretty lame. I tried Heavy needlers and plasma cannon and it was very meh. The turreted ballistics kind of limit your options as arbalests and heavy autocannon are inaccurate, even with gunnery implants. Mostly doesn't feel like it had the stats for it to be a line ship.

Retribution - Mostly feels like a poor mans odyssey. I wish it had Heavy Ballistics Integration. The 30 extra OP would make the small missile slots more interesting.

Shrike - Dies about as fast as a talon pilot because of its ship system.

Tempest - The drones are good. Unfortunately, the ship system bizarrely wastes the drones. Now you have a frigate with a mediocre 0.8 shield with zero pd...and it's dead.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 11:19:03 AM by Hyde »
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Pizzarugi

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2024, 11:15:20 AM »

It's too bad there's no strong, high mobility capitols unless I pick up Automated Ships and Neural Link so I can pilot a Radiant.

Odyssey fits your exact niche. Piloted well, a vanilla Odyssey can take on even the S-modded faction fleets from Nexerelin singlehandedly.

It's close, but not good enough. When I think of high mobility, I think of ships that can run out of fights as quickly as they dive in. Plasma Burn is great for diving in, but does little for jumping out without spending a length of time slowly turning around. Phase Skimmer, Phase Teleporter, and Plasma Jets are what I think of for high mobility since the ship systems are useful in any direction of movement. The other problem I have with Odyssey is that it's a broadside capitol, and the idea of only having at least 50% of its weapons used unless rushing into the middle of an enemy fleet doesn't sound all that ideal. That's why I mentioned the Radiant as it is the most mobile capitol, but the only downside being that you must have two specific skills to even utilize it, or 1 skill if you don't mind slapping in a gamma core and let it do its own thing.

Don't get me wrong, as far as non-[redacted] ships go, the Odyssey does seem like the only vanilla capitol that closely fits what I'm looking for.

But now that we're on the topic of using mods, a perfect example of a high mobility capitol would be the Apollyon, a VIC capitol. Still sluggish at moving and turn speed, but the quantum lunge sends that thing absolutely flying. Don't need to worry about getting surrounded when its system allows it to pass through enemy ships. Engines burnt out from EMP or too much damage? System instantly repairs it.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 11:28:55 AM by Pizzarugi »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2024, 11:17:09 AM »

At least Shrike is cheap.  Fury feels Shrike's pain, but it is nowhere near as cheap.
Shrike is honestly obnoxious...

This is how I build both... At least how I remember building them

Shrike: Light Conflict Resolver Destroyer
Spoiler
[close]

Fury: Light Suppressionist Cruiser
Spoiler
[close]

Fury: Light Karmic Abuser Cruiser
Spoiler
[close]

Use Full Assault, make rushing High Tech fleets... Don't worry too much about casualties. Let Jesus take the wheel. And shred. These things are cheap, have a lot of damage, and somewhat high durability for their DP.

Shrike explanation: You need ITU to be able to engage at saner ranges, also to make PD Laser work. 20% bonus range is good. And Hardened Shield doesn't work that well, cause Shrike is so vulnerable in terms of damage, it's better to just gamble that it will randomly not be focused by anything, and instead drown in the noise of combat. Being able to deal large amounts of damage unpunished. There is no other viable strategy than that. Unless it involves SO which is alien to me. Note that last sentence for every build I make.

Fury: Fury is fat and has a large amount of health for 20 dp. The reason it dies is cause it can't retreat. Build it around long-term sustained combat, making use of its large amounts albeit not infinite flux. A similar advice goes for Aurora (maybe?). Using a combination of high efficiency Pulse Lasers and Ion Cannon, Fury can successfully shut down a variety of enemies and then pummel them away with slow but eventually successful damage. This runs the opposite of the latter build which makes use of its 2 highly potent medium missile slots, allowing for devastating missile combinations.

PCL is your friend, it counters fighter presence, one of the deadliest things to encounter as a squishy High Tech vessel, and gives high High Explosive damage. Sustained pressure is welcome. Its need to be used at close quarters and in hardpoint mount to not be defeated by inconsistency is negated by the nature of these two highly disposable High Tech vessels.

Cheap. Both of these ships are extremely cheap. This would matter more if the economy wasn't broken. But having 20 Shrikes dumped in your inventory inside a Remnant system is nice.

IR Pulse Lasers - these weapons contrary to sanity are good against shields and weak against armour and hull. Use them as pressure weapons when Heavy Blaster can't be used for such. Flux is high but not infinite. And ships being given time to waddle down their opponent is neat.

Ion Cannon - cheap weapon that saves High Tech ships from attrition. Very few weapons have EMP in the game of such nature. And very few of them can be equipped due to their illogical nature of short range, or low damage, or high flux cost. Shrike and Fury fortunately fall into possible users of them.

Sabot - this weapon doesn't have to be explained. The sooner you get to attack past shields, the sooner you'll get to use EMP to disable their weapons, or using Heavy Blaster to rip their armour and disable their weapons by blowing them apart.

PD Laser - honestly not that bad at intercepting Salamanders or fighters. It just needs ITU to run properly. Which is why it often seems awful. It's cause nobody puts ITU on High Tech ships.

ITU - being able to fire your weapons from further away, especially if that is the only thing you're good at, is a nice path to take.

Expanded Missile Racks - you need flux to not die. Long-term action is irrelevant. Death is behind the horizon. Rip and tear until you are destroyed. The doctrine of High Tech befell upon your soul.

Hardened Shields - good to s-mod in, but generally it's way saner to just get flux for firing your weapons longer. Heavy Blaster mostly. If you do not have Heavy Blaster and are capable of underfluxing, then do not invest all OP into vents and capacitors. Instead invest in max capacitors and get Hardened Shields. With a sane amount of vents.

Comic Sans Font Shield Conversion - smod this in to get way more durability.

Unstable Injector - an absolutely insane hullmod that HAS TO BE BUILT INTO A FURY OR A SHRIKE... HAVING RIDICULOUS SPEED IS WHAT THESE SHIPS ARE ABOUT... WHO CARES ABOUT SO!? WHO TEH *** CARES!? JSUT GET THIS ***... 120 SPEED CRUISER!? LET'S A *** GOOOOOOOOOO!

IPDAI - kinda cool, but don't use it, unless you're doing something wacky.

Skills - Systems Expertise for more dashes. But most likely not worth it. Get Missile Specialisation to use more Sabots instead. Or Breach. Target Analysis to trigger EMP and generally disable weapons sooner. You need to win by attrition somewhat. Field Modulation for obvious reasons. Impact Mitigation? Maybe. For additional acceleration, being less vulnerable is also nice. Damage Control is also cool. Furies and Shrikes have limited shield coverage, meaning chance of them taking fire from the side is quite high. Helsmanship? More speed, what's not to like? Combat Endurance. These ships will die before reaching PPT. But I guess it can be useful in very large fleet engagements against Pirates, Hegemony, etc. Point Defense... I don't think it's very useful. But it can make PD Lasers quite competent at shooting down most things coming their way. But it still won't save you from Hydra, so who gives a ***. Gunnery Implants. Honestly, it's *** how much IR Pulse Lasers miss. Their speed should be increased. More range is appreciated. Energy Weapon Mastery. For obvious reasons, more Heavy Blaster shots are also insane. Ordnance Expertise? Who gives a ***. You don't gain much from it anyway, cause you don't spend that much OP on weapons, cause these ships are OP-bankrupt and have few slots.

Extended Shields - I'm uncertain. Build them in if you want to. Otherwise, gamble for your life. As the High Tech doctrine says.

Stabilised Shields - the only way to get more flux venting easily. Useful to s-mod for additional long-term presence. Especially on Furies. But generally somewhat low impact. Better to s-mod Unstable Injector instead.

Advanced Turret Kebab - the fact that it doesn't increase damage upwards is a giant middle finger to all the lower ship users. Honestly... Horrible. The only use it has is making Heavy Blaster not miss the first shot, but other than that. Who cares? Remove it from the game out of spite.

Wolfpack Tactics - Fury is a cruiser, btw

Fleet Composition - fleet should mainly consist out of Furies, them being in synergy with one another. A support armada consisting out of singular Auroras. Aggressive Medusas and Shrikes. Omens, Tempests. A competent phase fleet. And to tip it off a powerful Astral (though yes, it needs a buff) piloted by an officer with Missile Specialisation. (However, Astral is atm horribly underpowered).

Useful admiral skills - Phase Coil Tuning to give your High Tech ships an aggressive group of potent unpredictable enablers. These should be mostly Afflictors and Shades, Doom maybe? But do not use Harbingers. They are horrible overpriced pretentious garbage. Flux regulation, maybe? Officer Management and Officer Training. Every single person playing this game should understand that is their solemn duty to spam as many underpaid egotistical maniacs in your fleet to boost its general combat capabilities. Support Doctrine. Cause spamming officers is never enough. Admittedly it's probably garbage, cause you can use Officer Training dementia to just get more officers. Cybernetic Augmentation, honestly preferred the old one. This one is kinda pretentious. Flux Regulation? Mphm, sure, whatever. Kinda boring, but go for it. Carrier Group, for the *** Astral to be slightly less ***.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 11:48:58 AM by Killer of Fate »
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happycrow

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2024, 12:08:34 PM »

Venture, most likely strongest ship in the game considering the amount of missiles it has and the minuscule DP cost. The only thing that holds it back is the fact that it's boring and the fact that officers are limited.

I like Ventures.
Venture is super-appealing to those who like the exploration and combat-freighter lifestyle, and the built-in survey mod means you've got extra OP for augmented drive and efficiency overhaul. Base 7 may be painful but if you're running dark half the time anyway it's not that bad.
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happycrow

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2024, 12:11:13 PM »

Tempest - The drones are good. Unfortunately, the ship system bizarrely wastes the drones. Now you have a frigate with a mediocre 0.8 shield with zero pd...and it's dead.

Okay hear me out: I routinely salvage Tempests and use them as dedicated carrier escorts. Being able to simply lay waste to another frigate and call it a day is darned handy.

"Haha I am light and fast and am now going to flank the carriers."
"What is this goofy knitting needle trying to tell me it can laser-gunfight?"
(Narrators's Voice:  "It was at this point that the Hound went boom")
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Phenir

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2024, 12:29:12 PM »

It's too bad there's no strong, high mobility capitols unless I pick up Automated Ships and Neural Link so I can pilot a Radiant.

Odyssey fits your exact niche. Piloted well, a vanilla Odyssey can take on even the S-modded faction fleets from Nexerelin singlehandedly.

It's close, but not good enough. When I think of high mobility, I think of ships that can run out of fights as quickly as they dive in. Plasma Burn is great for diving in, but does little for jumping out without spending a length of time slowly turning around. Phase Skimmer, Phase Teleporter, and Plasma Jets are what I think of for high mobility since the ship systems are useful in any direction of movement. The other problem I have with Odyssey is that it's a broadside capitol, and the idea of only having at least 50% of its weapons used unless rushing into the middle of an enemy fleet doesn't sound all that ideal. That's why I mentioned the Radiant as it is the most mobile capitol, but the only downside being that you must have two specific skills to even utilize it, or 1 skill if you don't mind slapping in a gamma core and let it do its own thing.
Have you even looked at the odyssey? All the weapons that need to be pointed at the enemy are on one side. The other side is missiles. Literally no one puts gun on the right side of the odyssey lol. And because it is broadside, the angle of approach is almost the same as the angle of escape so its system works for both. It's not like you have to do a 180, more like 30. Not to mention the odyssey has 70 freakin top speed.
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Serenitis

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2024, 01:00:51 PM »

I don't like:
Eagle - They are a perfect confluence of features that fight each other leading to being so mediocre it just fades into the background. Anything an Eagle can do, another ship can do better.
Shrike - Two frigates in a trenchcoat, with one of the least AI friendly systems possible and paper for defences. A dependable source of disappointment.
Invictus - Cool in theory bc big armour blocks are cool. Exceptionally tedious to fly, bc fixed guns on something that turns slower than the local moon is not something I enjoy. A giant frigate cosplaying as a capital.

Venture is super-appealing to those who like the exploration and combat-freighter lifestyle, .... Base 7 may be painful but if you're running dark half the time anyway it's not that bad.
Tbf the "exploration and combat-freighter lifestyle" often includes Bulk Transport, so Venture (which is civilian) then has a base burn of 9, which is much nicer.
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prav

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2024, 01:59:11 PM »

Skipping ships that I don't like because they're just not for me, but I think they do what they should do - eg. Eradicator, Falcon P, Manticore.

Fury - Where are the weapon mounts? I'm paying 20 DP for this thing, I want more pow pow.
Tempest - The narrow shield combined with paper armor means that they go pop to incidental fire all the time. S-shield mods help, but that's a big investment just to exist in large battles.
Medusa - Just like the Tempest it tends to die to things that probably shouldn't kill it. Statwise it can be very tanky, but then something slips by the shield and pow, gone.
Sunder - While excellent in the support role, it just can't do anything on its own. Bit of a one-trick pony.
Wolf - The codex isn't kidding about the power generator, and even with double swarmers it's Talon food, making it a very iffy early-game pick.

I guess those are all high-tech, in spirit if not color. I feel like I should like them, fast and punchy. I'm sure you could make an Ordo-killing monofleet with any of them. But whenever I try to add one of these to my fleet I'm disappointed by their performance.

The Shrike I love early-game, in spite of certain Talon... interactions..., but you don't find me using one in the lategame for the same "sudden pop" reasons.

Also count me as a Venture and Eagle appreciator. Very nice ships that do what they should.

Edit: Oh and the Odyssey - very cool ship. Love how it fights. Can't play it due to how cumbersome it is to control. It also looks a bit funky, could stand to be a bit sleeker if you ask me. And I do miss having HEF with double tachlances.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 02:04:19 PM by prav »
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Selfcontrol

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2024, 02:05:19 PM »

Fury - It just needs a little buff to its shield efficiency and It would be in a decent spot.

Hammerhead - worst destroyer in the game by FAR. Completely outclassed in lategame by all other destroyers as an escort and it also doesn't work as an aggressive destroyer since it's made out of paper. The only build that works on it uses SO and yeah, not thanks, I'd rather have 3 LP Brawler instead of 2 SO Hammerheads. I really want to like the Hammerhead since I love its design but it's just trash.

All combat freighters (Mule, Venture, etc) - I like the idea of combat freighters, but they exist only for lore reasons. It's impossible to make a semi-viable fleet with them.

Tempest - It just needs to have its system AI fixed and it would be cool.

Odyssey - It's a strong ship, but 45 DP is too much. While its flux dissipation is impressive and allows it to mount flux-hungry weapons like Plasma Cannons, it has average shields (fair) and average flux capacity (also fair). It deserves to have its DP reduced to 40.

Dominator - Indirectly overnerfed with the recent nerf to Ordnance Expertise (which was totally deserved). It deserves to have its base flux capacity slightly raised. I'm not gonna use it anyway since it's a baby Onslaught and everything the Dominator does, the Onslaught also does it, but better. A single Onslaught is worth 2 Dominators at least.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2024, 02:08:06 PM »

Fury - It just needs a little buff to its shield efficiency and It would be in a decent spot.

Dominator - Indirectly overnerfed with the recent nerf to Ordnance Expertise (which was totally deserved). It deserves to have its base flux capacity slightly raised. I'm not gonna use it anyway since it's a baby Onslaught and everything the Dominator does, the Onslaught also does it, but better. A single Onslaught is worth 2 Dominators at least.
stat-wise Fury is in a good spot. I would probably just buff the Microburn, give it more range and the chance to turn it off. Anything but giving it 0.6 shields. 0.7 shields are actually part of its identity. Being a cheap affordable High Tech ship that is kinda garbage. Honestly, it's kinda cool...

Dominator is kinda confusing. Honestly I think that we should just nerf the Onslaught...

NERF THE ONSLAUGHT!!!
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happycrow

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2024, 07:50:29 PM »

All combat freighters (Mule, Venture, etc) - I like the idea of combat freighters, but they exist only for lore reasons. It's impossible to make a semi-viable fleet with them.[/b]

Combat freighters are great; the problem isn't with them, but that Derelict Operations is such a capstone that you're minimum level 7 by the time you can access it and probably level 9. By then, you're starting to be past a lot of the early-mid-game utility where they truly shine.
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Zumberge

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2024, 09:50:14 PM »

All combat freighters (Mule, Venture, etc) - I like the idea of combat freighters, but they exist only for lore reasons. It's impossible to make a semi-viable fleet with them.

Combat freighters are great; the problem isn't with them, but that Derelict Operations is such a capstone that you're minimum level 7 by the time you can access it and probably level 9. By then, you're starting to be past a lot of the early-mid-game utility where they truly shine.

When the Starsector wiki was on Fandom there was a comment on the Mule's page to the effect of, "in the early game there's nothing wrong with having a fleet of eight pirate Mules."  And that guy was right: High burn speed, cheap, durable, holds a good amount of cargo, nice amount of OP for the DP cost... it doesn't translate to late game viability, but they help you get to that point.
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PixiCode

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2024, 11:04:52 PM »

Shrike - Dies about as fast as a talon pilot because of its ship system.

Tempest - The drones are good. Unfortunately, the ship system bizarrely wastes the drones. Now you have a frigate with a mediocre 0.8 shield with zero pd...and it's dead.

Shrike lives a lot better when you have many Shrikes or similar ships all supporting each other, still prone to deaths sometimes but it's relatively cheap to repair overall and like any high tech ship doesn't have that much crew to replace. I had a lot of fun making a 10 shrike fleet with mixed omen support thrown in there. I had used a mixture of CH talons and thunders for it, I think.

Tempest, it's usable if you put a point into Carrier Group, officer the tempest(s) and don't exceed 8 flight decks, though sometimes the drones still end up being wasted despite that. They're pretty nice.
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Spyro

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2024, 12:21:09 AM »

Fury - Where are the weapon mounts? I'm paying 20 DP for this thing, I want more pow pow.
Yeah that's a weird thing. Fury is basically upsized Shrike but they forgot to scale the number of weapon mounts. It literally only gets 1 extra medium mount (synergy) and actually loses on one small energy that can point forwards. Shield efficiency is the same, it's just naturally bigger, tougher and only a smidge slower.

Back when we paid 15 DP for it some weren't so sure if it'll be worth using it. Then it got mega nerfed to 20 DP and received nothing for it. Only a few patches later a tiny OP boost.

It really needs something that's not a boring stat boost because it will never be worth your while unless you SO it.
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