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Author Topic: Hegemony Ships Loadouts  (Read 2217 times)

Nemoto

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Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« on: November 28, 2024, 10:39:27 PM »

What would you change about these ship loadouts especially the Dominator?

Eagle


Mid-range generalist build that can tank and do decent damage, Heavy Mauler there isn't an 800 range HE ballistic and I don%u2019t want to deal with Heavy Mortar%u2019s poor accuracy and has lower damage per hit. Hypervelocity Drivers range match Heavy Maulers with their longer range but have lower DPS and negative efficiency so I rather use Heavy Autocannons. Phase Lance could work for anti-armor but the AI is bad and will spam them instead of trying to overload enemies. LRPD laser instead of Burst PD as I tend to use multiple Eagles to form a large PD net, Burst PD would be superior otherwise with better DPS as well as benefiting from Expanded Magazines.

Dominator


Mid-range build with good PD, kinetic and HE damage, uses 1 of the large mounts for anti-armor but I find that 3 small kinetic is a little lacking in kinetic damage and so I use 1 MarkIX Autocannon even though its a large mount. The MarkIX also does decent hull damage so I%u2019m not too sad about it. Ballistic Rangefinder for the 3 Light Autocannons to range match the large ballistic mounts, Railguns are better but the flux cost becomes a little too much for the Dominator to handle. Annihilator Rocket Pods are pseudo defense for suppression and to block hits. Expanded Missile Racks being built in rate of fire penalty can actually be preferable for Annihilator Rocket Pods to conserve ammo.

Onslaught


Hephaestus Assault Gun instead of Storm Needler since 2 Heavy Needlers and Railguns alongside some Thermal Pulse Cannon shots is enough for anti-shield even if it means less weapons benefiting from Expanded Magazines being built-in. Plenty of Point Defense, 2 Vulcans in the rear instead of Flak Cannons as the Flak Cannons on the side also have firing arcs for the engine which is sufficient alongside allied escorts to protect flanks and rear. Annihilator Rocket Pods are pseudo defense for suppression and to block hits. ECCM Package to buff their speed to increase chance of missiles landing.

Legion XIV


Mid-range brawling build with Heavy Armor as well as strong kinetic and HE, ballistic weapons slitgthly outrange the Hammer Barrage after accounting for Officer Skills. Ton of bombers to take advantage of the kinetic damage from the Legion as well as them staying behind the Legion.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 02:41:27 AM by Nemoto »
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Bungee_man

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2024, 02:58:26 AM »

What are they meant to fight? Are you trying to overload the shields of Tri-Tach ships, fight symmetrically with Hegemony ships, or fend off League missile spam? Against Remnants, Legions tend to prefer sustained damage fighters, as unintuitive as that might seem.
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Nemoto

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2024, 03:07:27 AM »

Somewhat general build that are good against most opponents I suppose, in general I like having strong kinetics and Point Defense especially in Low-Tech since they don't have the luxury of a good shield or speed to back off.

Sustained damage fighters like Broadswords? I think Broadswords are one of the best fighters but the Legion build has a ton of kinetics and bombers will stay behind the Legion unlike fighters which is good since the Legion will be at the frontline taking damage so it can help shield the bombers.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2024, 05:20:09 AM »

For the eagle, you can drop 15 caps and grab hardened shields if you have it. For a cruiser, 15k capacity with hardened shields is strictly better than 18k capacity without it.

Dominator's biggest issue is they get distracted by enemy frigates but have almost 0 ability to actually kill them. Their performance will improve a lot if the rest of your fleet can deal with them, such as using fighters or powerful frigates of your own. You could then run double mark 9 for kinetics and rely on heavy mauler + annihilators for HE damage. Slot vulcans into the small slots for pd and save yourself 15 op from the rangefinder.

On the other hand, I found this build worked decently with no fighter support and a basic lasher (no officer) escort. Here I'm relying on railguns and ballistic mastery (elite) to solve the frigate problem, but it comes at the cost of its missile firepower.

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Nemoto

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2024, 07:39:15 AM »

So Hardened Shield is more effective health then the extra OP in Flux Capacity?

I escort Dominators that can deal with frigates so the Dominator can focus on other cruisers and capitals. I use double MarkIX in the past with Heayv Maulers but the PD relying only on Vulcans was too weak for me without Flak.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2024, 08:27:31 AM »

So Hardened Shield is more effective health then the extra OP in Flux Capacity?

Yes. The general rule is to get hardened shields if you have at least 4'000 capacity for frigates, 8'000 for destroyers, 12'000 for cruisers and 20'000 for capitals.

For the dominator and onslaught it might not be worth it because they build up a lot of flux from their guns, but for the eagle it is definitely worth it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 08:29:23 AM by BigBrainEnergy »
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Thaago

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2024, 08:31:14 AM »

For the Eagle I've been using a very similar build recently! I was stuck in the effective but always the same triple phase lance variant, so decided to mix it up.

I'm using the same ballistics, triple IR pulse, 5x burst PD, S-emags and advanced optics (and ITU of course). Also 2 breaches in the small missiles, as this ship's main weakness is armor (not hull, its fantastic v hull). I've got all the weapons other than the breaches in a single weapon group so it never tries to be "clever" and turn off its guns.

From my testing:

I didn't find the PD net concept to work as well as burst pds, despite the range difference. Bursts with s-emags are each ~3 times more effective than LRPD (2x sustained DPS, 4x DPS for 4 seconds, 4.5x the armor penetration for fighters/frigates) that it takes too many Eagles to match them. Plus I'm using advanced optics, which I also highly recommend, so they still support each other.

It doesn't need max vents, the guns just aren't hungry enough. No, seriously, I'm running a standard Eagle, not XIV, with 20 vents and no flux-boosting tech skill. On the one hand, I'm running an IR lance instead of your ion beam, so once the lance is out of charges I'm spending 100 less flux than you for sustained operations. For you with an XIV and fleet bonuses, I'd say you can put on hardened shields from the vents, not the caps, and still have too many vents. Maybe take 21 off and use them for hardened shields + breaches and see how it does?



For the Dominator:
Downgrade the dual flaks into regular flaks and put vulcans in the empty slots facing sideways. This will be longer ranged PD that saves much more flux; the side facing vulcans almost face forward so are good vs a surprising amount of frontal threats, but they also cover the critical area right where the shield cuts off that the AI loves to slam hammers into.

Consider replacing ECCM with more caps. Annihilators are faster with ECCM true, but I haven't found it to be worth the price. The built in expanded missile racks is painful on annihilators; maybe consider switching to Harpoons and keeping ECCM? That would work.



Onslaught:
Interesting build! For the side small kinetics, the front one can target big ships that are directly ahead; I'd throw a light autocannon in each of those and see how it does, just for an extra 200 DPS in very efficient little packages. Are you putting an officer on this with helm or elite armor? Otherwise I'd really want auxilliary thrusters; between XIV and Heavy Armor S mod, it is going to turn painfully slow, which is especially painful with the TPCs being boosted!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 08:33:39 AM by Thaago »
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Ptirodaktill

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2024, 09:45:22 AM »

 I only used escort Dom`s cause they can`t survive w/o big friends anc can`t afford PD unless you turn them intro useless bricks. Or use a mod for PD conversion. XIV dom with ordnance expertise is flux-positive, trough you do need helmanship, missile, ballistics, combat endurance and target analisis, so 5 in green is a must. You can switch missiles for reapers or harpoons, but i liked dragonfire on escort dom.
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  Eagles tend to Derp a lot, but triple phase lance setup was suprisingly effective and deadly.
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s-moded ECCM is extreamly good against remnants and special bounty fleets. With electronic warfare arbalest will outrange enemy HAC and heavy energy weapons.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2024, 10:01:00 AM »

So Hardened Shield is more effective health then the extra OP in Flux Capacity?

To add to this, hardened shields is also better with the same or slightly less effective health, on the basis that, with your dissipation rate fixed, it will take less time to recover (say) 500 flux damage against 1000 capacity than it will to recover 1000 flux damage against 2000 capacity.
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Thaago

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2024, 10:34:15 AM »

Hardened shields also reduces the chance for EMP arcs to penetrate the shield (like from pilums, ion beam, or tachyon lance).

...
 s-moded ECCM is extreamly good against remnants and special bounty fleets. With electronic warfare arbalest will outrange enemy HAC and heavy energy weapons.

Let's see, it entirely negates the range penalty for the ship in question... vs an enemy with superior ECM, that means that it saves the full 10% range penalty. Penalties are multiplicative. So for a cap (or destroyer/cruiser near a cap with escort package) they are going to have a range multiplier of (1 + (.6 ITU) + (.15 Gunnery)) = 1.75, so this hullmod being S modded saves .175 range multiplier, IE 17.5% bonus. With Ballistic Mastery, that is 18.5%. Even without the S mod, half of that is still significant.

Well dang, I've been sleeping on ECCM! That is absolutely worth taking!
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PixiCode

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2024, 10:40:20 AM »

Despite Heavy Mauler not range matching HACs, it is the best medium HE to pair with medium HACs, if that's your goal.

Phase Lances being spammed by the AI isn't bad anymore since they are now 0.8 flux efficient. It's not ideal, but it's very workable.

Burst PD is actually superior to the LRPD even for long range PD coverage, unless it's getting a capital ship-ranged ITU boost, but even then it's questionable. This is because the LRPD beam itself travels much slower than the PDBurst beam and how the LRPD will stop firing between every missile or fighter destroyed. The PDBurst has a chance to hit multiple missiles without turning its beam off, reducing how much its beam has to travel, which adds up a lot, on top of being some 3x? or so faster beam speed. LRPD is also faster beam speeed wise than the PD Laser, funny enough. Who knew the speed of light had so much variability? ;p

I feel like heavy armor is more useful when you're not using s-mods, because it costs too many resources to make the big armor tanks use their shields effectively while still having the important armor tank abilities. With S-mods like these images though? Heavy armor feels like a waste. Especially since the dominator actually really, really wants maneuvering so that it can not take 100 years when it decides to shoot at a new target because the AI is indecisive.

You asked about dominator so I'll share a dominator build. If you're officering it, I would remove Auxiliary Thrusters to replace it with Elite Impact Mitigation or Helmsmanship. I would also remove the 2 Flak to have 1 Dual Flak and 1 additional gun (probably another light needler) by using Ordnance Expertise. The mining lasers exist to stop the odd salamander that the flaks don't get for as efficient of OP used as possible.

Another thing I like doing is using missile spec elite and target analysis elite together with ECCM and 3 pilums. Fun stuff.

The 3rd smod not shown here is S-mod Flux Distributor. Note that this isn't really the dominator I always use, it's just a generic 'fine vs anything' dominator.

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« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 10:53:54 AM by PixiCode »
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Thaago

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2024, 12:09:19 PM »

I think that's a fine Dominator in terms of weapon choice and build balance, but I really dislike the flux situation: too much dissipation for the guns, and no caps means the shield can't absorb much damage (and it makes the AI back off sooner!). I'd want another 400 dissipation worth of primary weapons to warrant this kind of investment in dissipation. Both to give it more firepower to kill enemies, but also because if there is any duty cycle issues (like say an enemy getting out of the arc of hardpoints...) then the flux is even more wasted.

So... yeah, same advice as that Eagle: take off 20 vents and put them on caps and I'd bet you'd see a major improvement (that's what, a 40% increase in the flux pool for the shield?). Or swap one of the Hellbores to a HAG: the lower efficiency vs heavy armor doesn't matter because the ship has too much dissipation anyways. Also take off stabilized shields and put it into caps.
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Nemoto

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2024, 12:22:49 PM »

For the Dominator:
Downgrade the dual flaks into regular flaks and put vulcans in the empty slots facing sideways. This will be longer ranged PD that saves much more flux; the side facing vulcans almost face forward so are good vs a surprising amount of frontal threats, but they also cover the critical area right where the shield cuts off that the AI loves to slam hammers into.

Would your opinion be the same if the Officer has the Elite Point Defense Skill so that the Dual Flak Cannons have more range? I find the DPS of them much better even if it may be overkill at times compared to Flak Cannons but I find the abiltiy to absoulutely demolish swarms of missiles valuable especially in a slow ship that is taking most of the enemy's fire.

Onslaught:
Interesting build! For the side small kinetics, the front one can target big ships that are directly ahead; I'd throw a light autocannon in each of those and see how it does, just for an extra 200 DPS in very efficient little packages. Are you putting an officer on this with helm or elite armor? Otherwise I'd really want auxilliary thrusters; between XIV and Heavy Armor S mod, it is going to turn painfully slow, which is especially painful with the TPCs being boosted!

Usually when people say "interesting build" they mean its a terrible build  :P. Anyways, I tried putting a Light Autocannon on both small sides and it works sometimes, but its pretty awkward and they will spend most of the time firing at other targets which increases the already strained flux costs. I can use either Officer or both but I can drop Reinforced Bulwarks and put Auxiliary Thrusters if needed.

I only used escort Dom`s cause they can`t survive w/o big friends anc can`t afford PD unless you turn them intro useless bricks. Or use a mod for PD conversion. XIV dom with ordnance expertise is flux-positive, trough you do need helmanship, missile, ballistics, combat endurance and target analisis, so 5 in green is a must. You can switch missiles for reapers or harpoons, but i liked dragonfire on escort dom.
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I'd rather use Dominators as ships to be escorted than doing the escorting since they're so slow. I can't stand them having no PD at all even if there's Omen escorts. Dragonfires are a bit iffy for me due to the terrible ammo count. I noticed you didn't use any armor hullmod and instead several shield hullmods, what's your reasoning of doing this? I find going in on more armor better since its gets better the higher it is and Dominators don't have great flux stats to use shields.

  Eagles tend to Derp a lot, but triple phase lance setup was suprisingly effective and deadly.
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My problem with using Phase Lances for AI is that they will waste them firing on shields when the target is not even high on flux to try and overload them, wasting the firing ships flux since its only soft flux as well as the opportunity to overload their shields or damage armor.

Phase Lances being spammed by the AI isn't bad anymore since they are now 0.8 flux efficient. It's not ideal, but it's very workable.

My problem with using Phase Lances for AI is that they will waste them firing on shields when the target is not even high on flux to try and overload them, wasting the firing ships flux since its only soft flux as well as the opportunity to overload their shields or damage armor.

You asked about dominator so I'll share a dominator build. If you're officering it, I would remove Auxiliary Thrusters to replace it with Elite Impact Mitigation or Helmsmanship. I would also remove the 2 Flak to have 1 Dual Flak and 1 additional gun (probably another light needler) by using Ordnance Expertise. The mining lasers exist to stop the odd salamander that the flaks don't get for as efficient of OP used as possible.

Another thing I like doing is using missile spec elite and target analysis elite together with ECCM and 3 pilums. Fun stuff.

The 3rd smod not shown here is S-mod Flux Distributor. Note that this isn't really the dominator I always use, it's just a generic 'fine vs anything' dominator.

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I don't like using Pilums for ships in direct combat generally and only use them on support ships like carriers far from the front. That's the second Dominator without armor hullmods and instead uses shield hullmods, what's your reasoning of doing this? I know Shield Conversion - Omni is to trick the AI into using them better but I find going in on more armor better since its gets better the higher it is and Dominators don't have great flux stats to use shields.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 01:32:37 PM by Nemoto »
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PixiCode

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2024, 03:31:35 PM »

I think that's a fine Dominator in terms of weapon choice and build balance, but I really dislike the flux situation: too much dissipation for the guns, and no caps means the shield can't absorb much damage (and it makes the AI back off sooner!). I'd want another 400 dissipation worth of primary weapons to warrant this kind of investment in dissipation. Both to give it more firepower to kill enemies, but also because if there is any duty cycle issues (like say an enemy getting out of the arc of hardpoints...) then the flux is even more wasted.

So... yeah, same advice as that Eagle: take off 20 vents and put them on caps and I'd bet you'd see a major improvement (that's what, a 40% increase in the flux pool for the shield?). Or swap one of the Hellbores to a HAG: the lower efficiency vs heavy armor doesn't matter because the ship has too much dissipation anyways. Also take off stabilized shields and put it into caps.

I don’t think going higher capacitors helps XIV dominator builds as much as maximizing on flux efficiency. They aren’t really fast enough to retreat, so the overall behavior of a low capacitor dominator and a high capacitor dominator would be similar for hybrid shield-armor tanking. This should be especially true if you follow the suggestion of doubling down on overwhelming the flux dissipation with higher flux weapons like the hephag. The excess soft flux will cancel out the OP spent in capacity if the dominator gets any attention shot at it while it fires. This would work in the dominator’s favor if it’s being ignored by the enemy, but if I want to design a ship to deal damage over sustained presence I feel like a champion, eradicator or sunder would be a better ship to use for that purpose. In general I don’t think the dominator has the versatility (horrible hardpoint mounts, low speed, mediocre burn drive ai) or the natural flux capacity banks to get enough value from a weapon flux overloaded design. Not when compared to a build that is more balanced towards endurance, at least. Not saying a capacitor maxed dominator is a bad build, but I think a flux maxed dominator has many strengths over a capacitor maxed dominator. In particular, a capacitor maxed dominator would work well in a fast fleet that can cover the dominator if it’s taking on too much heat while the higher temporary dps can swing battles, but this more independent build I posted can instead act as a cheap anchor that other ships can use to maximize their own potential damage through its sustained damage and durability.

For an Eagle, going heavy on caps makes a lot more sense, I just disagree that it’s the choice to make for a dominator.

To finalize why I feel this way, the good armor of dominator synergizes well with enhanced shield efficiency and high flux dissipation, allowing it to extend its shield hp more than it would with a more flux hungry setup. Also, I find accelerated shield improves its ability to block incoming HE damage. It could potentially encourage the dominator to drop and flicker shield more often too, but it’s mostly just there because of HE parries.

As for Nemoto’s responses;

Really, phase lances shot into even a low flux shield target is not that much of a waste for 0.8 flux efficiency. It’s not ideal, but it’s well worth the power phase Lance provides, if the build wants phase Lance. Advanced optics phase lances range matches 700 range ballisrics on the Eagle very well. Arbalests and heavy Needlers go hard there. The true thing to worry about with phase lances is the AI’s tendency to shoot it, then back away during the Lance activation, ruining its damage output. That’s why making sure they’re at minimum the same range as your other weapons it’s important, ideally a little bit longer.

Pilums for ships in direct combat are very good so long as the ships don’t get into knife fighting distance. 900 base range dominator with ITU and ballistic mastery is long range enough for pilums. The EMP they can provide is exceptional if you use target analysis elite. You should try it sometime, with ECCM and target analysis elite, at the minimum. It’s very nice and generally worth the investment. This goes extra well since if the dominator ever wins an engagement and doesn’t happen to be near an enemy at the moment, it’ll still be helping with pilums until it’s in range. Furthermore, pilums on a direct combat ship help prevent the enemy from safely active venting from a longer range than annihilators might. Pilums are also cheaper than investing into expanded missile racks and cost less per mount too.

I mentioned it earlier, heavy armor is a bit of an over-investment into armor once you have smods. Though, the build I posted does have armor hullmods. Automated repair unit, armored weapon mounts and reinforced flux conduit are all armor mods. This is more of a hybrid tanking ship, it uses both armor and shields to extend its durability further than pure armor focus would. However, without smods setting up this sort of hybrid tank is too OP expensive and I think the heavy armor wins out. I mentioned in my reply to Thaago why putting some OP investment into shields for a dominator is useful. Not that I think he was questioning that, but it was related to why I maximized flux dissipation.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 03:42:53 PM by PixiCode »
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Thaago

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Re: Hegemony Ships Loadouts
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2024, 04:19:18 PM »

I get the idea of maxed vents and hardened shields, where when the shield goes down the ship is regenerating shield HP. There are 3 factors that I think make this a poor decision:

1) The base 1.0 shield means the Dominator gets less value out of this strategy than other ships. It is getting the least shield HP per flux regenerated.
2) The Dominator has highly efficient weapons, IE it gets the most value from its flux by shooting the enemy. Shooting a kinetic into the enemy shield is far better than saving your own flux. If the enemy drops shields, then the other weapons start doing real damage and the torpedoes can fire.
3) If the Dominator doesn't have a target directly ahead, or if an ally flies in front, or there is debris, or a weapon gets knocked out (this ship is very resistant to that, but not immune), the flux is wasted because it only has 3 light ballistics on turrets. The AI will not act like we want it to and lower its shields in that situation to regenerate HP, it will keep them up and the extra dissipation will do nothing.
3b) Corollary: if the ship has soft flux built up (for example from firing weapons over dissipation) then in all of the above scenarios the ship's dissipation is still doing something even when the shield is up: recovering for the next burst.

I'm not saying a Dominator should be no vents, max caps. But I think that the weapon load, without PD, should be about 20-30% more than dissipation for a conservative, endurance focused build. Even if going for max dissipation + hardened shields, it still never wants to be in the situation where the soft flux bar is empty and the shields are up.
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