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[ocd]

• 1 more Medium missile slot, all of which are not hardpoints. This makes them easier to aim missiles without guidance without needing to turn though is a small benefit due to their position further back. Still, one more medium missile is 25% more missile.

Ackshually, 33% more missile.

the potential to have 2 ballistic larges fire forward

Even then, onslaught can just turn slightly and suddenly it has 2 larges pointing at the enemy plus numerous other mounts.

This is what makes it a poor ship, it's turrets suck, they will spread fire at a bunch of targets instead of just focusing them down 1 at a time, it's also why it spins trying to finish kills it can't get because it has 0 speed. Dominator points at a target and hey look at that all it's firepower in 1 direction on a single target. More guns is cool but if they aren't all shooting at the same target to kill it ASAP what's the point you're just wasting flux and time. Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly. Theoretically the Onslaught should be better but it isn't it wastes too much time messing around.

[Phenir]

• 1 more Medium missile slot, all of which are not hardpoints. This makes them easier to aim missiles without guidance without needing to turn though is a small benefit due to their position further back. Still, one more medium missile is 25% more missile.

Ackshually, 33% more missile.

the potential to have 2 ballistic larges fire forward

Even then, onslaught can just turn slightly and suddenly it has 2 larges pointing at the enemy plus numerous other mounts.

This is what makes it a poor ship, it's turrets suck, they will spread fire at a bunch of targets instead of just focusing them down 1 at a time, it's also why it spins trying to finish kills it can't get because it has 0 speed. Dominator points at a target and hey look at that all it's firepower in 1 direction on a single target. More guns is cool but if they aren't all shooting at the same target to kill it ASAP what's the point you're just wasting flux and time. Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly. Theoretically the Onslaught should be better but it isn't it wastes too much time messing around.

Sorry I should have clarified that was a player only trick. The AI does not try to turn the side guns towards the enemy, not on purpose anyway. Furthermore, if you just want to compare forward firepower, the onslaught has the dominator beat by having 3 larges (I count the tpcs), 3 mediums, and 2 smalls, as well as 4 medium missiles to dominators 2 larges, 2 mediums, and 3 smalls and 3 medium missiles.

[ocd]

• 1 more Medium missile slot, all of which are not hardpoints. This makes them easier to aim missiles without guidance without needing to turn though is a small benefit due to their position further back. Still, one more medium missile is 25% more missile.

Ackshually, 33% more missile.

the potential to have 2 ballistic larges fire forward

Even then, onslaught can just turn slightly and suddenly it has 2 larges pointing at the enemy plus numerous other mounts.

This is what makes it a poor ship, it's turrets suck, they will spread fire at a bunch of targets instead of just focusing them down 1 at a time, it's also why it spins trying to finish kills it can't get because it has 0 speed. Dominator points at a target and hey look at that all it's firepower in 1 direction on a single target. More guns is cool but if they aren't all shooting at the same target to kill it ASAP what's the point you're just wasting flux and time. Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly. Theoretically the Onslaught should be better but it isn't it wastes too much time messing around.

Sorry I should have clarified that was a player only trick. The AI does not try to turn the side guns towards the enemy, not on purpose anyway. Furthermore, if you just want to compare forward firepower, the onslaught has the dominator beat by having 3 larges (I count the tpcs), 3 mediums, and 2 smalls, as well as 4 medium missiles to dominators 2 larges, 2 mediums, and 3 smalls and 3 medium missiles.

I get it more guns, looks better on paper but I ran it for a pretty long campaign and it just didn't cut it so I don't know what more to say maybe we're playing different games. Dominator is smaller so gets blocked less, guns all face forward so it doesn't target switch as much, will chase and catch a Radiant before it can actually vent, won't block the fleet as much. All this adds up to a better ship at least that's what I watched happen in this last playthrough and yeah I did try a bunch of fits on the Onslaught, most of the time it was out of position not contributing.

It's all theoretical until you run a full campaign with both of these ships well into the endgame and just observe them.

[MrUnsubscribe]

Could you post a video of you using the Onslaughts along with the builds and firing groups for them? We would have an easier time finding out why the ship has a hard time fighting if you provided us with that information.

[Sendrien]

I love threads like this, because it gives me a chance to promote my AI-friendly Onslaught loadout.

This build is meant to be the tip of the spear for a large fleet. It is built to be near impervious to missiles and torpedoes 360 degrees. It absolutely can charge into the middle of a very heated firefight and come out unscathed. This Onslaught will buy so much space and time for all the rest of your ships to do their jobs. It is also extremely capable solo, able to take out fleets with DPs multiple times its own. (Using only AI.)

Behold, the Stygian Grandeur.




P.S. Feel free to hate on the build, but please try it out first. I, of all people, know just how ridiculous it looks on paper. And yet...

[Thaago]

Nearly opposite of how I build mine, but hey, if it works it works.

Do you find it requires support to deal with heavily armored targets? Its anti shield ability is impressive when it gets in range of the storm needler, but I would imagine it struggles to get through armor (only devastators, they aren't good at it, and they don't point forward).

On the other hand, I also see a Radiant bouncing off of this without accomplishing anything, which is a nice thing to see.

My one suggested improvement that stays on theme for the way you've built it: I've found that the front pair of flank small mounts can fire at larger forward targets, so I'd put light autocannons in them in the same group as your DLACs. Also helps your flank firepower too.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

This is what makes it a poor ship, it's turrets suck, they will spread fire at a bunch of targets instead of just focusing them down 1 at a time, it's also why it spins trying to finish kills it can't get because it has 0 speed. Dominator points at a target and hey look at that all it's firepower in 1 direction on a single target. More guns is cool but if they aren't all shooting at the same target to kill it ASAP what's the point you're just wasting flux and time. Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly. Theoretically the Onslaught should be better but it isn't it wastes too much time messing around.

Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly.

You're funny, you're a funny guy. HMG has 450 range (450*1.65+200 = 942.5) meaning its worthless on anything that isn't SO. All of this on a ship with 30 top speed, and a system it won't use if heavy HE is in play which is always unless out of combat.  Heavy Autocannon on the other hand has a range of 1,485 with full upgrades. 800 standard + BRF grants 100 base range, *1.65 = 1,485. Light Autocannon, Railgun, and Light Needler also get the same 1,485 range meaning you can get the same DPS as dual HMG with actually decent range. The only issue being increased flux and OP cost which doesn't matter as most cruisers outrange max range HMG.

Also, Devastators max range is between 1,275 and 1685 due to shot variance. Meaning it can plink at 1685 but won't be dealing decent damage until you're at the standard max ballistic range of 1,485.

Also, you can keep saying "all its guns face forwards so it focuses on one target at a time" until you're blue in the face. However, this is only true if it's a Reckless or Fearless AI with an eliminate order, otherwise it will target switch to either defend itself from potential flankers, or to target ships it decided are better targets which is fairly random.

[Sendrien]

Nearly opposite of how I build mine, but hey, if it works it works.

May I ask how you build yours? I'm having a hard time envisioning what the "opposite" of my build might look like. 

Do you find it requires support to deal with heavily armored targets? Its anti shield ability is impressive when it gets in range of the storm needler, but I would imagine it struggles to get through armor (only devastators, they aren't good at it, and they don't point forward).

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but for some reason, this is an armour-shredder, even frontally. The only thing I would say it struggles with is if it is trying to deal with multiple highly armoured capitals simultaneously. This suggests that it uses flux to shred armour, so I'm guessing it's the TPCs in combination with all the fragmentation damage? I don't run that damage analysis mod, so I'm not sure what's happening there.

My one suggested improvement that stays on theme for the way you've built it: I've found that the front pair of flank small mounts can fire at larger forward targets, so I'd put light autocannons in them in the same group as your DLACs. Also helps your flank firepower too.

Now this is an exciting tweak! Thanks for the suggestion.

[Thaago]

...

Do you find it requires support to deal with heavily armored targets? Its anti shield ability is impressive when it gets in range of the storm needler, but I would imagine it struggles to get through armor (only devastators, they aren't good at it, and they don't point forward).

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but for some reason, this is an armour-shredder, even frontally. The only thing I would say it struggles with is if it is trying to deal with multiple highly armoured capitals simultaneously. This suggests that it uses flux to shred armour, so I'm guessing it's the TPCs in combination with all the fragmentation damage? I don't run that damage analysis mod, so I'm not sure what's happening there.
...

I can see the TPCs being effective, especially with skill and S-Mags support. 250 damage is slightly better penetration than a Hephaestus now that I think about it; 2 TPCs with S-mags is 750 DPS, with a huge burst up front (something like 25k damage at 2500 DPS?). Hmmm maybe that's why it struggles with multiple armor bricks at the same time, because it needs that burst to recharge for the next stripping. Pure speculation on my part!

...

Nearly opposite of how I build mine, but hey, if it works it works.

May I ask how you build yours? I'm having a hard time envisioning what the "opposite" of my build might look like. 

Sure! The biggest difference is that I go much lighter on PD than you do, much heavier on HE, and a medium investment in missiles.

Typically I do flaks in the center front, vulcans center rear, and use 3x Hephaestus in the larges. I also am using ballistic rangefinder + single LACs in the smalls and rear flank mediums, and triple HACs up front in the mediums (along with armored weapons mounts and gunnery implants to keep the recoil under control). To compensate for the lower PD, I install omni shields. Sometimes I put a vulcan on the rearmost 2 small slots (not the one that can fire forward) and 1 of the forward 2, sometimes I'll add IPDAI to give a 50% damage bonus to my scant PD (yes, I like regular flaks over dual so much that I do regular + IPDAI instead of duals, especially if I've got a few other PD on the ship).

I'm not using S-expanded magazines, so have a larger investment in missiles, whereas you're using the slots for budget support (which I don't think is bad: pilums are effective harassment for how cheap they are). Annis or PCLs are my go to for aggressive officers - they don't need ECCM, and for the PCLs I don't even use expanded missile racks. I still debate between the 2. On the one hand, annis have double DPS and can be just oppressive. On the other, the PCLs make the lack of frontal PD irrelevant and are a nastier individual ordinance.

I'm also experimenting with high investment: linked dragonfires (yes, really). I need to take more data, but 4 of them hitting a target at once makes for impressive deletion even if there are only 6 salvos. For the dragonfire I'm doing ECCM, so my capacitors are lower, but ECCM dragonfires are just nasty (if again short on ammo). I've seen this onslaught under AI control mow consecutively through remnants, killing something like 80 DP in short order and collapsing the entire enemy front... before then being completely dry of missiles with 98 OP + a skill invested in them. It's certainly fun to watch, but I don't know if its worth it.

(Side note: Medium Dragonfires are much better value than larges as they have a reasonable refire delay. 2 ammo is still a very low base amount, but with 3 I'd go for them every time, so I'm not sure what the right choice would be! I'd pay 15 for 3 base ammo dragonfires in the medium mount for sure, but that's stretching the value of a medium mount a bit.)

(Second side note: being in an Afflictor or Harbinger while there are dragonfires flying around is fun as it rewards well-times system activation so much. Nothing makes me cackle in glee like a Radiant's shield mysteriously going down right before the red death beams hit, or making them do 6k damage instead of 4k...)

My build has less anti-shield than yours, so is going to have trouble pushing back a radiant if it is solo, and is also more vulnerable to being surrounded and downed with mass missile fire. Both those things are factors I need to compensate for with my other ships (some squalls from a backline/nearby vessel go a long way to helping with both!). I don't really want it just diving in like you use yours, so I use aggressive instead of reckless and am sparing with the eliminate orders. Skills and an officer means that its not even as overfluxed as I'd like; I'm considering swapping the front large to a Mjolnir as I think Vanshillar has said he does on his Onslaughts. When I get in a situation where an enemy is in trouble, this ship capitalizes very quickly, as it has so much anti-hull/armor DPS.

[PixiCode]

Nearly opposite of how I build mine, but hey, if it works it works.

May I ask how you build yours? I'm having a hard time envisioning what the "opposite" of my build might look like.

If I had to guess based on context clues, I think thaago may use a 2 hephag 1 Hellbore build with Vulcans and some mixture of kinetic/mauler mediums.

EDIT: darn, I was close but not quite.

I have no strong feelings about your build besides that it’s going to ‘need’ TA elite to make those pilums count, gunnery implant to make those arbalests hit reliably and that the s-mod awm gets anti-synergy with thumper and storm Needler, not a fan of that combo. It should do well though. I would personally consider  replacing one of the dual flaks with 1 mining blaster and placing the new mining blaster where one of the arbalests are. I know, gross and asymmetrical, but I think a mining blaster would be a nice investment for faster kill times and benefit greatly from brf*magazine.
For fun I’ll describe my anti-ordo onslaught. When I go storm needler I prefer to go 3 Needlers and 5 maulers. The maulers are there to deal armor and hull damage a tiny bit faster, though replacing a frontal mauler with a thumper is a fine idea. It doesn’t use BRF so I don’t use mining blaster. I just use Vulcans for the pd, I expect the storm needlers and maulers (and possible thumper) to indirectly kill most torpedoes with the Vulcans cleaning anything that happens to get by otherwise.

[Sendrien]

the s-mod awm gets anti-synergy with thumper and storm Needler

Can you elaborate? I didn't realise there was an anti-synergy. I always assumed they were complementary because of the higher fire rate.

I can see the TPCs being effective, especially with skill and S-Mags support. 250 damage is slightly better penetration than a Hephaestus now that I think about it; 2 TPCs with S-mags is 750 DPS, with a huge burst up front (something like 25k damage at 2500 DPS?). Hmmm maybe that's why it struggles with multiple armor bricks at the same time, because it needs that burst to recharge for the next stripping. Pure speculation on my part!

I don't know why your line of reasoning caused some logic to click into place just now, but I realised that the reason why my quad Pilums are extremely synergistic with the anti-shield is because of the EMP arcs. I have noticed one reason why this Onslaught can act as the tip of the spear against so many hostiles is because the anti-shield and constant EMP from the Pilums cause the enemy to either be fluxed out or EMPed. So it ends up not taking a lot of incoming fire other than by missiles, against which it is extremely well defended.

To compensate for the lower PD, I install omni shields.

Have you found this to impact its ability to be used by AI?

I'm not using S-expanded magazines, so have a larger investment in missiles, whereas you're using the slots for budget support (which I don't think is bad: pilums are effective harassment for how cheap they are). Annis or PCLs are my go to for aggressive officers - they don't need ECCM, and for the PCLs I don't even use expanded missile racks. I still debate between the 2.

How long do you keep your Onslaught on the battlefield? I tend to be paranoid about ammo consumption, so I always envision my capital running out of ammo during long engagements and then being relegated to tanking for other ships. Though I imagine with a build like yours, your time-to-kill must be significantly lower than mine. Out of curiosity, have you tried quad Jackhammers? You can basically take out a capital with each alpha strike.

I'm considering swapping the front large to a Mjolnir as I think Vanshillar has said he does on his Onslaughts. When I get in a situation where an enemy is in trouble, this ship capitalizes very quickly, as it has so much anti-hull/armor DPS.

I've done experiments with the Mjolnir, and my main takeaway is that you have to sacrifice a lot of "uptime" to run the Mjolnir because of its flux hunger. If you plan to use your Onslaught as a finisher, I think it would be an upgrade, but it does have a negative impact on its ability to pump out damage for longer periods of time. But if you're going to use it as a finisher, you might really consider those Jackhammers. 

[PixiCode]

the s-mod awm gets anti-synergy with thumper and storm Needler

Can you elaborate? I didn't realise there was an anti-synergy. I always assumed they were complementary because of the higher fire rate.

There's actually two issues at play with using S-mod AWM with Thumper and Storm Needler. The first is that both of these weapons are held back by their ammo regeneration, not their fire rate. Once you run out of ammo, which you will, S-mod AWM isn't really doing anything for your magazine weapons anymore. I didn't mention this, but the TPC has this issue, too. None of these are a game breaker to make it a bad decision, though I'm not a fan of it as a result. Fire rate increases don't boost magazine generation on their own, including AAF's bonus. You can see this in game by equipping magazine weapons to AAF ships like the Eradicator and Atlas2.

(I hope I don't get this wrong, this part is a topic I'm not 100% educated on, but...) The other issue, I had to go into weapon_data.csv to confirm this, I think Storm needler and to a lesser extent Thumper do not even benefit from the increased fire rate. 0.05 is the fastest any weapon can fire without some script to spawn more bullets or time acceleration. Thumper's refire delay shows its time between bursts, which should be affected by the fire rate increase, but its actual bullets shot during the burst are at 0.05, so that won't speed up. Storm needler is at 0.05 and has no burst refire delay so it gets no benefit at all from the fire rate increase, as far as I can see.

Oh, also, Onslaught doesn't get the most benefit from S-mod AWM's refire rate in general unless you really maximize its flux dissipation and equip cheap weapons. Your weapon flux is pretty large, so the value from S-mod awm won't last overly long.

(about Onslaught Omni Shield) Have you found this to impact its ability to be used by AI?

The question wasn't directed at me, but I have experience using omni shield with armor tanks. Omni shield has the slight potential of being tricked by DEMs or passing torpedoes that would've never hit, causing more damage to armor than expected. In return, omni shield is way better at flickering and slightly encourages the ship with omni shield to drop shield more often. Overall, these are both usually acceptable for an armor/hull tank - you want them to take more hits onto armor than normal so that it can dissipate hard flux. Usually.

I actually have a little mp4 on discord showing an omni shield dominator 'parrying' 3 terminator drone terminator sequence hits in a row, each at near-maximum hardflux without overloading. It was very impressive!

[Thaago]

I find the Omni shield to be, in general, an improvement for the reason PixiCode comments.

On exception is HILs, which the shield AI does not correctly prioritize over lesser threats like an HVD/Mauler combo or a single stray bomb. In general the AI is overly scared of missiles (which is the basis of the Doom "Pop Goes the Radiant" trick, where you lay mines on the far side to get the omni shield to freak out, then slam the thing with 9 AM blasters) which can lead it so let in shots on the far side.

On the other hand, if something with a HIL gets to the flank of an Onslaught, the choice of "maybe gets tricked for a little while" vs "unblockable gg" doesn't seem so bad!

I don't think an Onslaught absolutely needs an Omni shield, and I've done runs without it, but I find it to be reasonably worthwhile.

[Princess of Evil]

Dominator's benefits over the Onslaught are ... and 15 DP being the biggest benefit by far.

Yes, it's almost two times cheaper. Notice how most of the differences are *below* +60% you get just from taking the same DP of Doms? Even flux capacity, the biggest upside, is 2% lower.

EDIT:

(which is the basis of the Doom "Pop Goes the Radiant" trick, where you lay mines on the far side to get the omni shield to freak out, then slam the thing with 9 AM blasters)

Putting melee weapons on a phase ship is fun, but busting the capitals with them isn't really sustainable. Their death explosion is literally bigger than your range.

[ocd]

This is what makes it a poor ship, it's turrets suck, they will spread fire at a bunch of targets instead of just focusing them down 1 at a time, it's also why it spins trying to finish kills it can't get because it has 0 speed. Dominator points at a target and hey look at that all it's firepower in 1 direction on a single target. More guns is cool but if they aren't all shooting at the same target to kill it ASAP what's the point you're just wasting flux and time. Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly. Theoretically the Onslaught should be better but it isn't it wastes too much time messing around.

Dominator does this just fine and the lack of range claims is weird since it can get 1.7k range Devastators pair it with HMGs and kill everything Cruiser size and lower instantly.

You're funny, you're a funny guy. HMG has 450 range (450*1.65+200 = 942.5) meaning its worthless on anything that isn't SO. All of this on a ship with 30 top speed, and a system it won't use if heavy HE is in play which is always unless out of combat.  Heavy Autocannon on the other hand has a range of 1,485 with full upgrades. 800 standard + BRF grants 100 base range, *1.65 = 1,485. Light Autocannon, Railgun, and Light Needler also get the same 1,485 range meaning you can get the same DPS as dual HMG with actually decent range. The only issue being increased flux and OP cost which doesn't matter as most cruisers outrange max range HMG.

Also, Devastators max range is between 1,275 and 1685 due to shot variance. Meaning it can plink at 1685 but won't be dealing decent damage until you're at the standard max ballistic range of 1,485.

Also, you can keep saying "all its guns face forwards so it focuses on one target at a time" until you're blue in the face. However, this is only true if it's a Reckless or Fearless AI with an eliminate order, otherwise it will target switch to either defend itself from potential flankers, or to target ships it decided are better targets which is fairly random.

Sound logic but doesn't translate to combat for some reason, HMGs did better for me they were the last option I went with there since they are pretty useless usually. Extra hull mods made all the difference.

Congrats btw on getting the Dom to beat simslaught I didn't see that earlier pretty good no? For much cheaper no less.