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[PixiCode]

Personally, I find that the Tempest works exceptionally well; I just build mine around the assumption that the drones can't be relied on. Extended shields (preferably s-modded), hardened shields, 10+ capacitors, 8+ vents, one heavy blaster, one LRPD or burst PD. Don't bother with missiles unless you've got a spare AMSRM. (Though if you do have an AMSRM for it - and an officer with missile spec so it recharges faster - then you can reasonably justify swapping the heavy blaster down to something more flux efficient.)

Now, would it be nice if the termination system was a bit more AI-friendly? Yes. But the Tempest was a good ship even back before it had the drones at all. You just have to recognize that, in its current form, the drones don't provide a reliable PD screen. And even with that flaw it's still the best general-purpose combat frigate, and basically the only frigate that I can just let the AI run them and be reasonably confident that they'll come out the other side of the battle alive.

The problem with pretending that the tempest doesn’t have drones is that currently the tempest’s stats are somewhat balanced around the system carrying it, even more than the Scarab for whatever reason. The tempest is faster top speed wise, but when you include temporal shell they even out imo.

The build you posted is still very overfluxed just by putting everything into 1 heavy blaster, and further it’s completely helpless against any missile once the drones inevitably die at the tempest’s own hand. If I understand right the tempests launch terminator drones as a panic response, it’s going to launch the drones just in response to using the heavy blaster and then getting hit on the shield by your average weapon. The tempest has even worse shields than an omen and, imo, worse firepower too, when you include that the tempest can’t actually support a heavy blaster. Not saying your build is bad by the way, using capacitors and vents to support a HB as long as possible on a fast ship is good design. It’s not the build’s fault, it’s the tempest’s fault. You can fit an omen with 1 antimatter blaster and while the blaster is on cooldown it can be using the emp arc emitter to apply even more energy dps. Scarab has access to just as much alpha dps as the tempest does but on a better ship. Someone else mentioned the shrike but imo the speed brackets aren’t comparable to tempest, omen or scarab. Not the best comparison.

Another example of a ship with similar roles to the tempest, since the phase beam flux buff HSA Wolf has become an actually powerful frigate for 5 DP, with a better maneuvering profile than tempest since phase skimmer is so good. You can do something similar with the tempest but it can’t run away as fast as a wolf can, unfortunately.

Tempest isn’t like ‘make your fleet lose the battle’ bad in its current state but I really struggle to think of any reason to use it right now besides as a player flagship or becsuse I want to despite the above thoughts. Buffing the drone system in some way would make it a longer ppt, more fragile comparison to the scarab. Or of the drone system isn’t buffed, it would at least be about as durable as the scarab if the shield/capacity is buffed.

[Megas]

Termination Sequence could create a drone no matter what, and if drones would exceed the maximum, launch one of them.  This way, the system functions more like Reserve Deployment when under max, and Termination Sequence when at max.

Wouldn't that be an issue when you actually want to yeet a kamikaze drone but you don't have enough charges to exceed the termination threshold?

As the drones are, I doubt it, at least for the player.  For the enemy, they probably want to chuck drones at the player like no tomorrow just to be that one obnoxious enemy you want to hate.

For the player, I agree with the opinion that "...you just don't want to trade the drones away."  To be worth launching, drones need to be replaced immediately when launched.  If not, then the system hurts you.  Better for the Tempest to have no system instead than throwing its PD and DPS away.  If the ship is missing drones, getting them back is more important than throwing them away.

However, the enemy does not have the same considerations as the player since they die quickly and have infinite resources outside combat.  For the enemy who will die soon and does not care about casualties, trolling the player with drones may be more useful to it.  If chucking junk for more damage now can styme the player more before it dies (instead of holding drones back for defense), I guess that helps them.  That makes Termination Sequence more of an NPC system like Disintegrator gun for Omega ships.  Player wants the fast kill instead of slow burn, but the enemy does not care how it attacks the player before going down.

Drones as missiles are weak and do not seem very hard to stop.  I fear them less than torpedoes or some other missiles when used against me.


P.S.  About Shrike.  In my experience, AI Shrikes die faster than AI Tempest.  They are bigger, less agile, and they have Plasma Burn to charge into combat.  They are like Fury (with the annoying backpedal when fluxed out), except Shrike is cheap enough to be disposable.  Shrike's advantages are they are easier to come by (more common and maybe costs less than Tempest), and they have medium missiles and can use Converted Hangar (but then its OP cost goes up and has to compete with stronger ships).  Once I get enough Tempests, Shrikes as gunboats in my fleet usually get replaced by Tempests.

[PixiCode]

However, the enemy does not have the same considerations as the player since they die quickly and have infinite resources outside combat.  For the enemy who will die soon and does not care about casualties, trolling the player with drones may be more useful to it.  If chucking junk for more damage now can styme the player more before it dies (instead of holding drones back for defense), I guess that helps them.  That makes Termination Sequence more of an NPC system like Disintegrator gun for Omega ships.  Player wants the fast kill instead of slow burn, but the enemy does not care how it attacks the player before going down.

Drones as missiles are weak and do not seem very hard to stop.  I fear them less than torpedoes or some other missiles when used against me.


P.S.  About Shrike.  In my experience, AI Shrikes die faster than AI Tempest.  They are bigger, less agile, and they have Plasma Burn to charge into combat.  They are like Fury (with the annoying backpedal when fluxed out), except Shrike is cheap enough to be disposable.  Shrike's advantages are they are easier to come by (more common and maybe costs less than Tempest), and they have medium missiles and can use Converted Hangar (but then its OP cost goes up and has to compete with stronger ships).  Once I get enough Tempests, Shrikes as gunboats in my fleet usually get replaced by Tempests.

It’s so funny you mention what is good for enemy fleets, because that’s exactly why dragonfires are so ridiculous too, low ammo makes the player hesitant to use them while the enemy is like ‘Woah I got a kill on a random frigate!’

Though tempest drones run out of replacement rate so quickly they may as well only have an ammo of 3 for the ai.

[SCC]

I don't think Tempest needs better shields, if its system is going to become strong again. Replacing the drone immediately or making them into reusable DEMs sound like good ideas to me.

[Doctorhealsgood]

DEM terminator drones are interesting if nothing else. I mean supercharging a drone so it fires a huge laser is pretty high tech kind of stuff.

[Thaago]

Personally, I find that the Tempest works exceptionally well; I just build mine around the assumption that the drones can't be relied on. Extended shields (preferably s-modded), hardened shields, 10+ capacitors, 8+ vents, one heavy blaster, one LRPD or burst PD. Don't bother with missiles unless you've got a spare AMSRM. (Though if you do have an AMSRM for it - and an officer with missile spec so it recharges faster - then you can reasonably justify swapping the heavy blaster down to something more flux efficient.)

Now, would it be nice if the termination system was a bit more AI-friendly? Yes. But the Tempest was a good ship even back before it had the drones at all. You just have to recognize that, in its current form, the drones don't provide a reliable PD screen. And even with that flaw it's still the best general-purpose combat frigate, and basically the only frigate that I can just let the AI run them and be reasonably confident that they'll come out the other side of the battle alive.

The Tempest is another winner in the missile autoloader contest so I think a player could use the missiles if they had the OP to spare.

[Wyvern]

The problem with pretending that the tempest doesn’t have drones is that currently the tempest’s stats are somewhat balanced around the system carrying it, even more than the Scarab for whatever reason.

...What? No, it's really not. The drones - and the earlier HEF - got added on top of an already excellent ship.

The build you posted is still very overfluxed just by putting everything into 1 heavy blaster,

Yeah, that's what heavy blasters do. It's not going to get the full DPS out of the thing and that's okay; it's still an effective weapon for it.

and further it’s completely helpless against any missile once the drones inevitably die at the tempest’s own hand.

...Um, no? That is literally why my variant includes PD!
(Now, if you're basing that statement off of testing LRPD on larger ships, then maybe I could understand your perspective; one LRPD on a cruiser isn't going to kill anything. It works on the Tempest because the Tempest is fast - faced with high flux and an incoming missile, it'll back off, which buys the LRPD time to get the kill. You do still need some PD, though, otherwise the AI gets stupid; I've seen PD-less Tempests manage to die to missiles that would've been zero threat to a player.)

The tempest has even worse shields than an omen and, imo, worse firepower too, when you include that the tempest can’t actually support a heavy blaster.

Well, yeah, the Omen has the best shields of any frigate that's not a Monitor with its system active. The problem with the Omen is that the AI doesn't understand that its hull/armor is basically non-existent; if an Omen gets to high flux it will sometimes try turning its shield off... and then it just dies. The Tempest is significantly more durable (roughly 2/3 more armor and hull), and significantly faster; the combination means that a Tempest will live through situations that the Omen wouldn't. I do like Omens... but by endgame they've gotten filtered out of my fleet while the Tempests just keep working.

Tempest isn’t like ‘make your fleet lose the battle’ bad in its current state but I really struggle to think of any reason to use it right now besides as a player flagship or becsuse I want to despite the above thoughts. Buffing the drone system in some way would make it a longer ppt, more fragile comparison to the scarab. Or of the drone system isn’t buffed, it would at least be about as durable as the scarab if the shield/capacity is buffed.

Again, I'm curious what Scarab build you're using; my experience with the things is that sometimes they're great, and sometimes they turn their system on and hover around out of range of things and burn PPT without accomplishing anything and then I have to give them retreat orders in the middle of the battle. (Or, occasionally, they dive in with system active, and then can't get out fast enough once the system turns off.) They're basically phase ships with shields, usage-wise.

For me, though, the purpose of the Tempest is that it's something that I can use in normal fights for point captures and killing off enemy frigates, that won't get itself killed and will continue to be useful throughout the fight. (This is, in fact, my general design practice: if each ship in my fleet can fend for itself, then I mostly don't need to worry about orders and can just get to blowing things up with my flagship. Is this the 'optimal' strategy? Perhaps not; I'm not using massed Gryphons. But it works, and more importantly, is fun for me.)

[FooF]

Tempest with a Heavy Burst Laser isn't as reliant on the drones and the HBL (will be) a decent option in the next build because it will fire 50% more often than current with an ever so slightly longer duration of beam. It's also light on flux so you can pair it with an assault Medium Energy without overfluxing the Tempest.

The Scarab is a much better harasser than the Tempest, and will probably remain so regardless of whatever buffs occur to Termination Sequence. Temporal Shell can be used to get out of bad situations as well. The only thing the Tempest can boast is that it can actually harm a bigger ship because it has access to Phase Lances, Mining Blasters, Heavy Blasters, etc. But, Scarabs are much harder to find and are mediocre at best when their ship system is down. Really, it just comes down to the Scarab being a specialist and the Tempest being a generalist. The Scarab will be (and should be) a better assassin and/or disruptor. The Tempest is more a jack-of-all-trades.

[Amoebka]

I haven't really sweated too much over Scarab builds, but I tend to use double atropos, double IR pulse, ion cannon, and some pd in rear slots. Against heavier armor I replace one IR pulse with an antimatter blaster.

I wouldn't call Scarabs specialists, they can perform many roles well. When deployed alone on the flanks, they are really really good at assassinating smaller ships. Near the main death ball part of the battle they function more like bombers - can't accomplish much on their own, but can absolutely demolish any ship made vulnerable by something else. They are really good anti-fighter as well.

[PixiCode]

...What? No, it's really not. The drones - and the earlier HEF - got added on top of an already excellent ship.

It's just how I see the DP of Tempest right now. I didn't 100% mean that the Tempest's DP was balanced by its system in the past, though I appreciate your correction. So, my correction; it currently it feels that the Tempest's DP budget weighs the drone system for part of its cost.

I can't believe I forgot about it again, but the TT Brawler exists, for 5 DP. The tempest has turrets and better speed which should help a lot, but the TT Brawler has better flux capacity, same shields, slightly worse mobility (+125 speed system is nutty, but 100 top speed base is meh), better armor, better flux dissipation, 10 more OP... is the tempest really worth 3 more DP than TT Brawler? It feels like the system/drones (I also incorrectly lump the system and drones together sometimes when in flow of thought, sorry) are a big part of the tempest's DP, but they almost may as well not exist in battle.

That's more the kind of thing I meant. Scarab is just the big thing to compare to since they cost the same DP.

...Um, no? That is literally why my variant includes PD!

(Now, if you're basing that statement off of testing LRPD on larger ships, then maybe I could understand your perspective; one LRPD on a cruiser isn't going to kill anything. It works on the Tempest because the Tempest is fast - faced with high flux and an incoming missile, it'll back off, which buys the LRPD time to get the kill. You do still need some PD, though, otherwise the AI gets stupid; I've seen PD-less Tempests manage to die to missiles that would've been zero threat to a player.)

Being blunt, I actually didn't catch that you put a LRPD on the tempest, oopsies. However, LRPD has a few key issues. You're right that the tempest can back off during incoming missiles and the AI does tend to prioritize backing off while missiles are incoming, but LRPD's (relatively) slow beam speed makes switching targets a notable DPS loss. Burst PD mostly fixes that issue but it's even more expensive, which isn't a good idea with a heavy blaster build. Giving it a LRPD is a good idea, probably about the best thing to put there since you can't use an emotional support mining laser + the LRPD will kill the occasional missile but for how much fire a heavy blaster tempest will draw it's a bit unfortunate. Other high tech frigates have a similar kind of problem but they can either teleport or have better shields to tank with. Tempest has... had, its drones.

On the note of the TT brawler from earlier - it can't really use point defense which is a problem, but fitting the tempest with point defense is sort of a struggle as well.

Well, yeah, the Omen has the best shields of any frigate that's not a Monitor with its system active. The problem with the Omen is that the AI doesn't understand that its hull/armor is basically non-existent; if an Omen gets to high flux it will sometimes try turning its shield off... and then it just dies. The Tempest is significantly more durable (roughly 2/3 more armor and hull), and significantly faster; the combination means that a Tempest will live through situations that the Omen wouldn't. I do like Omens... but by endgame they've gotten filtered out of my fleet while the Tempests just keep working.

Omen does do that occasionally though most omen deaths I see are from big unlucky bursts, like a 5 autopulser radiant deciding that omen must die or a tachyon burst. Front shield conversion seems to help prevent death from dropping shields a lot, though I noticed omens are way more likely to drop shields in aggressive in-your-face fleets. Might try S-modded accelerated shield to see if that helps one day.

omens are almost hilariously bad against persean league, so that's something to consider. Their EMP Arc emitter doesn't handle the swarm of DEMs very well.

Again, I'm curious what Scarab build you're using; my experience with the things is that sometimes they're great, and sometimes they turn their system on and hover around out of range of things and burn PPT without accomplishing anything and then I have to give them retreat orders in the middle of the battle. (Or, occasionally, they dive in with system active, and then can't get out fast enough once the system turns off.) They're basically phase ships with shields, usage-wise.

For me, though, the purpose of the Tempest is that it's something that I can use in normal fights for point captures and killing off enemy frigates, that won't get itself killed and will continue to be useful throughout the fight. (This is, in fact, my general design practice: if each ship in my fleet can fend for itself, then I mostly don't need to worry about orders and can just get to blowing things up with my flagship. Is this the 'optimal' strategy? Perhaps not; I'm not using massed Gryphons. But it works, and more importantly, is fun for me.)

I think the most popular way of using a scarab is using SO on it for high kill speed fleets, using a lot of ir pulse lasers, designed for high aggression fleets. 3-5 ir pulsers, 0-1 amblaster, 0-1 ion cannon.

I've stopped using SO for most ships besides a select few, though. Centurions and Enforcers, mostly. I have four different builds I use for Scarab. They all use hardsubs, stab shield, hard shield. Generally, these scarabs are best given any personality besides timid or reckless. Reckless non-SO scarabs don't do well ignoring other nearby enemies, they aren't SO Glimmers after all. I usually go for steady or aggressive.

Unofficered: 2 IR pulse laser, 1 ion cannon/PDLaser, 2 swarmers. Vents > Caps if ion, Caps > Vents if pd. Use mining laser on rear mount as emotional support for the ion cannon build. Unstable Injector. UI encourages the scarab to get closer and get stuff done.

Officered, no story points:

Default - Same as unofficered but replacing UI with ITU paired with Gunnery, Helms and Combat Endurance. Should have sysex too of course. The extra range helps the scarab get in more shots overall.

HSA - 3-4 BPD, 0-1 Ion Cannon. HSA, ITU, Extend or Front Shield. No vents, only caps. Same skills as default. Extremely aggressive frigate and destroyer hunter-killer that doubles as fighter and missile removal, high risk. DPS plummets if it uses magazine shots on missiles or frigates, but usually kills them unless it's a sabot. So just hope they don't have sabots, lol.

Story Points builds:

Similar builds above, but using Elite Point Defense and 2-3 s-mods. More guns, more vents, more power, HSA build actually likely to stop sabots. I still haven't figured out what sort of story points builds I like the most, they are all very potent and have a few different variations. I put together this clip to showcase the potential of the HSA story point version.



The 'default' Elite Point Defense build (IPDAI ir pulse lasers) is doubly effective against the persean league but is good versus any kind of fleet that isn't red motes.

EDIT: A build I haven't really tried yet but would also probably work well, is a 2 AMB Scarab with helmsmanship and/or UI. Maybe with S-mod EMR Annihilator Rockets. To make the rockets fire less often. Specifically for that, because I wish small annihilator rockets had a much longer refire rate.