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Author Topic: Tempest. Again.  (Read 4248 times)

PixiCode

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Tempest. Again.
« on: August 20, 2024, 04:46:32 PM »

I made a thread about the tempest a little while ago here https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26090.msg388144#msg388144

I didn't necro it since that's against the rules (I don't like necro'd threads anyway) But I was playing with some builds and a campaign in 0.97 when I just realized something about the Tempest that I had overlooked.

The tempest has 0.8 shield efficiency.

Actually, why does it have 0.8 shield efficiency? Besides the ship's use of Termination Sequence that was already went over in that thread, I think that's actually holding back the tempest a fair deal, that's a difference of 1,000 shield ehp just at baseline, which is pretty important for a little frigate. Any thoughts on that?

I'm not suggesting any big Tempest changes, I'm sure everyone knows about the drones after all this time, but uh. Maybe Tempest could get a 0.6 shield efficiency in its current form? Or, maybe a buff of 2,500+500 > 3,000 flux capacity, like the Brawler (TT)? They have similar weapon loadouts and the same shield efficiency.

I mention 'current form' because if the system/drones got reworked, then maybe staying at its current stats make sense, but if they stay how they are now (which is servicable) then a buff like that could help it compete better for the 8 DP price.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 04:54:26 PM by PixiCode »
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Thaago

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2024, 05:53:29 PM »

I think the Tempest has a .8 efficiency because it was a "high offense" frigate... when it had high energy focus. Termination Sequence being a bit of a dud means that its lost some of its punch while retaining the weakness.
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kaoseth

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2024, 05:58:30 PM »

You know, I heard that Expanded Deck Crew works really well on the Tempest. 

It never occurred to me to use that hullmod, given that they are drones and not live pilots.   
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PixiCode

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2024, 06:38:31 PM »

You know, I heard that Expanded Deck Crew works really well on the Tempest. 

It never occurred to me to use that hullmod, given that they are drones and not live pilots.   

Yeah actually I showed a build that used EDC on it before (on the Apex though) and someone went "Huh? Guess that works." Hehe.
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Zsar

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2024, 01:47:45 PM »

Mmh, I am not convinced: In practice, the Tempest is a hard-hitting and very survivable frigate matched in speed only by the Hound.

There is one reason and one reason only why I lately have switched out my Tempests for Brawler (TT)s: It is quite pricey at its 8 OP and the Brawler (TT) is already good enough.

I think the real deal would be to alter Converted Fighter Bay to give OP instead of costing them, so Tempests could be converted to not-drone-dominated loadouts. Currently the drones want ECCM (in their missile form) and Expanded Deck Crews and then the one regular missile would also like a Missile Autoloader for synergy with the ECCM - and then the Tempest's OP are pretty much spent, making all sensible build options very samish.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2024, 06:53:23 PM »

I don't know that expanded deck crew is so desirable on the Tempest. Somewhat faster drone recovery for an ability that doesn't do all that much damage isn't such an extreme benefit.

Main issue I see is that it's not exceedingly fast or well-shielded, so its ability to survive the occasional mistake that'll definitely get made by the AI in an extended fight is very limited.
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TK3600

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2024, 08:14:51 PM »

Tempest is such a meh unit. Its only redeeming quality is being really fast.
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PixiCode

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2024, 09:32:12 PM »

I don't know that expanded deck crew is so desirable on the Tempest. Somewhat faster drone recovery for an ability that doesn't do all that much damage isn't such an extreme benefit.

Main issue I see is that it's not exceedingly fast or well-shielded, so its ability to survive the occasional mistake that'll definitely get made by the AI in an extended fight is very limited.

Honestly it really is very fast, it just doersn't have a system that briefly makes it extremely fast.

Also, I agree, I don't think EDC has enough of an impact on the Tempest to make it worth that 8 DP when you have many other options to spend that DP with for a ship with a similar role. However, EDC is great with bombers and, well, terminator drones in AI hands are basically bad bombers, so it does help. Tempest alternatives; Wolf, LP Brawler/Lasher, Scarab, Medusa, TT Brawler, Glimmer, Lumen, Omen, all of these fulfill "Fast, capable of fighting enemy frigates with the right builds." Some of those ships lack PD options compared to the Tempest, but the Tempest also almost never has its drones around for PD unless you give the tempest long range beams and a cautious personality.

By the way, wouldn't it be funny if AI Tempests actually used 1 of their terminator drones on repeat if you gave it nothing but long range beams? Maybe trying to keep their RR at 100% before launching another. Then they're sort of like... weird 'infinite' missile frigates. Not saying they should do that, it's just a funny idea. Right now the tempest just goes to 30% RR so it's like they have infinite missiles, but really don't.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 09:36:18 PM by PixiCode »
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Cryovolcanic

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2024, 06:09:46 AM »

When this ship was really good, what did it do differently?
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Amoebka

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2024, 06:14:26 AM »

It had a powerful ship system (HEF) instead of the one that's actively detrimental to use.
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2024, 04:46:03 AM »

It had a pair of the most powerful pd/anti fighter drones. Combine that with the top speed of a hound and impressive flux stats. High Energy Focus worked wonderfully with its design.
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Megas

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2024, 05:41:11 AM »

Before 0.8a, the system was the Terminator Drone itself (because fighters were ships instead of weapons back then), and it had a phase cloak, which was good until the modern cloak delays came in 0.72a.  Then, when drones became built-in fighters, Tempest got Active Flares, then High-Energy Focus, then Termination Sequence.

Agreed that Termination Sequences is an awful system.  Tempest getting Active Flares back would be an improvement.  Would like to see Apex use real fighters as Scintilla does instead.
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Bungee_man

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2024, 07:52:58 AM »

Agreed that Termination Sequences is an awful system.  Tempest getting Active Flares back would be an improvement.  Would like to see Apex use real fighters as Scintilla does instead.

Given that Terminator drones have been added to two ships now, it seems more likely that Alex wants to buff them into a useful state. HEF Tempest was a really good frigate, though - traded the Wolf's mobility for the ability to get meaningful use out of a number of medium energy weapons.

As far as Termination Sequence being useless to the point of detrimental, how much of that could be solved with a damage buff? At present, they do 1200 energy + 600 EMP damage, which looks like a slightly weaker Hammer (already not heavily-used), but this is energy rather than HE damage, so in practice you've got something with a 20 second reload (with reduced screening in the interim) that does half the armor damage of a relatively weak missile and costs flux to fire. I'm imaging a tradeoff where the drones are made somewhat more survivable, the replacement time is turned up substantially, and termination sequence turns them into a reliable finisher missile, so that a Terminator or Apex build can choose to specialize around the drones sticking around and skip spending on PD, or treat them as an extra set of missiles, and build its armament around the assumption that it won't need to deal the killing blow directly.

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Amoebka

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2024, 08:10:06 AM »

The problem is you just don't want to trade the drones away. Each one is a flux-free IR pulse laser and a gigabuffed flux-free PD laser. The drones are a major part of your ship-to-ship DPS.
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Tempest. Again.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2024, 08:48:18 AM »

The drones were REALLY good back when they just wouldn't die. They could take down missiles and fighters, and wear away weaker frigates without the Tempest ever intervening. Why you would ever waste one as an explosive is beyond me.
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