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Author Topic: Large missiles feels lacking in options  (Read 8682 times)

TK3600

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Large missiles feels lacking in options
« on: August 11, 2024, 11:14:07 AM »

Small missiles are amazing, I always fill them in. Medium missiles are also very good, usually same as small but more rate of fire and ammo. Large missiles feels almost like a regression from medium. 2 medium is almost always better than 1 large. I am not going to say all large missiles sucks, but all the good weapons are medium missiles with more ammo. The unique ones feels very underwhelming. And there is a general lack of options that previously existed in medium. For example, where is large Harpoon? There is a general lack of HE missiles that isn't short range torpedos. Hurricane lacks the tracking to work properly as a missile. Want kinetic pressure? Squall take it or leave it, a niche specialist weapon. No sabot but 2x ammo. Lets take a look at why these options 'sucks' and fail to fill roles.

------------Squall:

Good:
fire over allies
long range

Bad:
lackluster damage output
easily intercepted
cant hit anything bigger than a destroyer
negated completely by lower the shield (its hull damage is pathetic)

Conclusion: it is a support weapon for ships outside front line, like carriers. Same role as Pilum. It is not the general purpose kinetic weapon like sabot. In fact, it sucks completely unless you put ECCM and missile spec on it. Otherwise it either never hits or get blocked by the most basic PD set ups. Personally I would not use it very much if I have options for sabot with 2x ammo.

---------Hurricane MIRV

Good:
The only HE option you have.
decent range
speed is decent

Bad:
Very low damage output
Usually wasted on shield, of which HE halves
the imperfect spread cuts a lot of damage in practice
run out of ammo quickly, very low damage output potential for the point invested

Conclusion: Another support weapon like Squall, but worse. Squall is negated by lowering shield, which opens up chance for other weapons. MIRV gets blocked by shield easily. Unlike Squal or annihilator rocket in medium slot, it does not have much pressure on PD. Just all around bad. If for some reason it go past shield, the damage is lackluster, worse than Harpoon in medium slot.

----------------Hydra

Not much to go for this one. DEM is weak in general, not just large slot.

----------------Locust

This one actually isn't bad. It is a point defence that can threaten frigates and saturate point defense. By itself mediocre. In conclusion, a niche weapon for anti small craft, decoy for PD. This is a frag missile after all. Swarmer is 4x100 HE that can double for anti ship damage. Frag is negated by shield and armor. A swarmer missile scaled up by 4x is better damage.

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Dadada

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2024, 12:42:38 PM »

Quote
The only HE option you have.
Pardon me?

HE: https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Cyclone_Reaper_Launcher
HE: https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Hammer_Barrage

https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Dragonfire_Torpedo_Pod
https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Pilum_LRM_Catapult

E:
Quote
There is a general lack of HE missiles that isn't short range torpedos.
Ahh. Mmmm.

E2: DEMs Dragonfire large and medium kinda lacks ammo. Did you know I love Reapers! I love Reapers!


E3: >Squall
DMG is fine and I would not say it's easily intercepted, that depends on your or the enemies PD etc.
>Hurricane
Maybe the dmg got nerfed a bit too much...
>Hydra, Locust
Last time I used them: Seemed alright I guess.

E4: Maybe a long range kinetic bomb catapult, bombs release flechettes, could be interesting and add another kinetic large missile... But Squall is already long range, hmmm.

E5: Well, maybe Squall HP was nerfed a bit too much, who knows. ^^
« Last Edit: August 11, 2024, 01:28:31 PM by Dadada »
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Phenir

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2024, 12:52:32 PM »

Hurricane is a reaper that can be delivered anywhere on the battle line, pretty good I think. It's hard to shoot down. Against large targets (destroyer+) it will land most hits unless it's a slim profile and even then eccm will make it hit. Also, it's on the upper end of ammo duration of large missiles.
Enemy dropping shield because of constant kinetic pressure from squall is job well done. Like, that's literally its job. Of course if you are only firing the squall its bad, just like only shooting HACs is bad but no one says that's a bad weapon do they?
Locust shreds bare hull and complete airspace dominance is a pretty big niche. Plus there's a good chance those missiles will incidentally block shots.
You really cannot say a missile is bad against a given defense as a point against it, that holds true for all missiles. It's not like a certain other missile wasn't nerfed because it was too good against shields and armor at the same time.
I'm curious, if you think these large missiles are bad and they also happen to be the only ones with homing capability, how do you build your invictus? conquest? odyssey?
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TK3600

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2024, 02:29:14 PM »

Quote
The only HE option you have.
Pardon me?

HE: https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Cyclone_Reaper_Launcher
HE: https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Hammer_Barrage

https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Dragonfire_Torpedo_Pod
https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Pilum_LRM_Catapult

E:
Quote
There is a general lack of HE missiles that isn't short range torpedos.
Ahh. Mmmm.

E2: DEMs Dragonfire large and medium kinda lacks ammo. Did you know I love Reapers! I love Reapers!


E3: >Squall
DMG is fine and I would not say it's easily intercepted, that depends on your or the enemies PD etc.
>Hurricane
Maybe the dmg got nerfed a bit too much...
>Hydra, Locust
Last time I used them: Seemed alright I guess.

E4: Maybe a long range kinetic bomb catapult, bombs release flechettes, could be interesting and add another kinetic large missile... But Squall is already long range, hmmm.

E5: Well, maybe Squall HP was nerfed a bit too much, who knows. ^^
Catapult is frag. I would totally use it a lot if HE.

Squal damage is fine on paper, but it miss a lot (even vs big ships), especially no S-mod ECCM. Half or 2/3 of shots that lands are intercepted, so in the end damage sucks. By the time flux build up somewhat, you are on reload.

Reaper is awesome.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2024, 02:33:37 PM by TK3600 »
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TK3600

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2024, 02:46:22 PM »

Hurricane is a reaper that can be delivered anywhere on the battle line, pretty good I think. It's hard to shoot down. Against large targets (destroyer+) it will land most hits unless it's a slim profile and even then eccm will make it hit. Also, it's on the upper end of ammo duration of large missiles.
Enemy dropping shield because of constant kinetic pressure from squall is job well done. Like, that's literally its job. Of course if you are only firing the squall its bad, just like only shooting HACs is bad but no one says that's a bad weapon do they?
Locust shreds bare hull and complete airspace dominance is a pretty big niche. Plus there's a good chance those missiles will incidentally block shots.
You really cannot say a missile is bad against a given defense as a point against it, that holds true for all missiles. It's not like a certain other missile wasn't nerfed because it was too good against shields and armor at the same time.
I'm curious, if you think these large missiles are bad and they also happen to be the only ones with homing capability, how do you build your invictus? conquest? odyssey?
Not a fan of Conquest, Odyssey, but I do build Invictus.

Hargar + 2x sarrisa, Mojnirs, 1 pair Devastator on the corner. No rear slots.

resistent flux (S), armored mount, rest on the flux stuff.
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Insolent Peon

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2024, 09:51:36 PM »

I've often found myself wishing that large missiles had a generic guided HE weapon with no gimmicks.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2024, 10:34:29 PM »

I am still surprised that when Alex reduced the amount of submunitions in Hurricane from 9 to 7(~22% damage decrease) no one even commented on it. I guess not many people used the Hurricane, but in that case was it really deserving a nerf?

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Dadada

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2024, 11:14:44 PM »

>Hurricane
Maybe the dmg got nerfed a bit too much...
"shrug"
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Grievous69

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2024, 12:43:06 AM »

I've often found myself wishing that large missiles had a generic guided HE weapon with no gimmicks.
Becaue that would be OP as *** when used in mass. Hell Harpoons in small and medium mounts can already reach critical mass and delete entire fleet.
I am still surprised that when Alex reduced the amount of submunitions in Hurricane from 9 to 7(~22% damage decrease) no one even commented on it. I guess not many people used the Hurricane, but in that case was it really deserving a nerf?
Dozens of people commented on it lmao, specifically asking why another nerf in damage.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

Megas

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2024, 06:12:56 AM »

I am amused how MIRV went through many changes over the years, and now it is almost gone full circle back to what it originally was.  Seven submunitions, no ammo regeneration.  (Yes, MIRVs had ammo regeneration like Pilums for a few releases.)  Only noticeable difference is the flight path of the submunitions (they are not so clustered that a single flak shot can stop them all easily) and appearance (they are bigger than in Starfarer releases).

Not fond of large Reaper anymore.  With the ammo cut and refire delay extension, it seems like a double Typhoon now, not the upgraded beast it was for years, if there were hulls that could use it effectively.  Until the nerf, I would have liked to use Legion XIV for double Cyclone.  Now, Cyclone is nerfed enough that I prefer normal Legion for five Typhoons and better ballistics.  If I want to use a dumb-fire in a large, the buffed (OP now 16 instead of 20) Hammer Barrage seems to be the way to go.  Still, even if Cyclone is underwhelming, I probably would use it over Dragonfire on ships.

Squall is not so great in one-on-one duels if the target has some PD.  Too many shots get shot down.  Previously, its hp was high enough that nothing short of four dual flaks (or maybe two buffed by PD skill) could stop them and it was practically a long-range homing flux-free kinetic gun.  Not anymore if the enemy has PD.  Of course, if the enemy has no PD, or possibly stacked by multiple ships so PD cannot stop them all, then Squall is the aforementioned long-range homing kinetic gun.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2024, 06:22:42 AM by Megas »
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TK3600

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2024, 10:40:06 AM »

MIRV was like A tier. This change made it C tier at best. I legit rather use medium Harpoon over it.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2024, 05:45:26 PM »

I still find Locusts to be an excellent slot-in for any large missile slots. It is cheap, doesn't need EMR for most fights, deletes fighters, suppresses frigates (unlike Squall), saturates PD, and can shred hull.
I haven't used MIRVs in a while, but their having better tracking seems good, right? Even with the lost damage from less munitions. I consider MIRV versus Hammer/Reaper like Hellbore versus HAG; the MIRV will consistently strip armour (even against slower frigates due to its guidance) and it fires for a while... that's it. It strips armour. If you want to delete hull then the torpedoes are your bet.
I'd love to hear folks' opinions on the new large Pilum... is it useful? Every time I use Pilums they get shot down or seem to just hit shields and do nothing. I'd rather bring Locusts!

I do think a large version of the Proximity Charge Launcher could be interesting, but instead of just "that but bigger" it would be a wide spray of Piranha bombs, like laying a minefield for enemy (and ally lol) ships to worry about. Could be an interesting weapon used by Pirates/Luddic Path perhaps? The idea of laying massive minefields makes me a salivate a little :p
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Vanshilar

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2024, 09:06:41 PM »

I agree, but not in the way you think. For me, it seems like missiles in general have few options simply because a couple of them look to be pretty dominant over other missiles that the player could use.

For AI-controlled ships in the player fleet, it seems like the best choice for small and medium missiles is generally Harpoons. For large missiles, it seems like the best choice is generally Squall, followed by Squall + Locust in a linked weapon group if the ship has 2 larges. This does very well in most of the builds that I've tried. Occasionally, Annihilators or possibly Swarmers will do well as well, and for player control Reapers/Cyclones can also do well, but AI isn't as good about using those.

Conclusion: it is a support weapon for ships outside front line, like carriers. Same role as Pilum. It is not the general purpose kinetic weapon like sabot. In fact, it sucks completely unless you put ECCM and missile spec on it. Otherwise it either never hits or get blocked by the most basic PD set ups. Personally I would not use it very much if I have options for sabot with 2x ammo.

Are you accounting for that the Squall now has scripted anti-shield damage, precisely because it was doing too much damage to armor/hull in previous versions? So its on-paper DPS is actually 256 kinetic DPS against shields, not the stated 103 kinetic DPS. Even with that, in my testing against double Ordos, the Squall usually ends up doing around as much total damage as a Mjolnir, despite the Mjolnir having on-paper 533 DPS, and usually having the most DPS out of all the large ballistics -- and the Squall does this without using any flux. That's because the Squall gets to hit things from 2500 su away. I don't see enemy PD having much effect against it, and it hits most targets pretty well other than say maybe frigates or something.

I don't see taking ECCM and/or Missile Spec as anything against missiles, I mean we usually assume that the player will be taking ITU and Ballistic Mastery for ballistic weapons too, and many ships that have large missile slots will also have other missile sizes that you'd want them for as well.

The strongest feature of the Squall is how much it softens up the enemy fleet and puts it in disarray even before the two sides engage and while the two sides are fighting, enabling the player fleet to go on the offensive. The second strongest feature is that it enables other missiles linked in the same weapon group, such as Harpoons and Locusts, to be that much more effective by having them fire more often and against targets from farther away. You don't really get those in any other package.
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TK3600

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2024, 11:50:58 PM »

By eccm i mean smod. It compete for limited smod to be decent. itu dont need smod bonus to work.
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TK3600

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Re: Large missiles feels lacking in options
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2024, 11:57:15 PM »

Damage is meaningless. It just mean it deals trash damage that enemy can recover. Had it destroy enemy like Reaper... You would see less damage despite faster kill. The desirable outcome of fast kill having low damage on paper.

Best way to demonstrate is beam weapon like tac laser. Trash soft flux, bad at finishing kills, but crazy dmg number.
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