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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework  (Read 242047 times)

Bogglin

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #510 on: April 03, 2025, 08:05:11 AM »

Editing the source files alone does not do anything, their entirtely ignored by the game, its compiling the contents of the source folder to a jar that does the job.

What program and which settings did you use to compile?

I'm currently using IntelliJ and tried to compile it with multiple SDK's and Language Levels, but every time it gives me a different Kotlin error.
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #511 on: April 03, 2025, 08:06:17 AM »

Editing the source files alone does not do anything, their entirtely ignored by the game, its compiling the contents of the source folder to a jar that does the job.

What program and which settings did you use to compile?

I'm currently using IntelliJ and tried to compile it with multiple SDK's and Language Levels, but every time it gives me a different Kotlin error.

You could probs ask on the usc discord for assistance
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Tenso

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #512 on: April 03, 2025, 01:04:11 PM »

Editing the source files alone does not do anything, their entirtely ignored by the game, its compiling the contents of the source folder to a jar that does the job.
Thx for making it clear! It makes things more complicated though...
Lukas, will it be too much to ask you to add settings for XO max level in the future versions of your mod? And maybe an option to ignore "Only 1 skill per group" restriction? And make this options available in LunaLib mod settings?
For us, people who sometimes crave for an unbalanced modded Starsector experience and want to see thing go "pew pew pew" and then "BOOM", having such options would be a tremendous thing! :)
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #513 on: April 04, 2025, 12:36:00 AM »

Editing the source files alone does not do anything, their entirtely ignored by the game, its compiling the contents of the source folder to a jar that does the job.
Thx for making it clear! It makes things more complicated though...
Lukas, will it be too much to ask you to add settings for XO max level in the future versions of your mod? And maybe an option to ignore "Only 1 skill per group" restriction? And make this options available in LunaLib mod settings?
For us, people who sometimes crave for an unbalanced modded Starsector experience and want to see thing go "pew pew pew" and then "BOOM", having such options would be a tremendous thing! :)

Sorry, but probably not. I dont want the mod to just have the same rep something like Progressive S-Mods has. Maybe far in to the future but will see. I think SiC is already a bit stronger than Vanilla anyways.
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Tenso

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #514 on: April 04, 2025, 01:35:44 AM »

Sorry, but probably not. I dont want the mod to just have the same rep something like Progressive S-Mods has. Maybe far in to the future but will see. I think SiC is already a bit stronger than Vanilla anyways.
Ok, fair enough, thank you for explaining your point! Besides, after playing some time with your mod I see now that there is quite enough skill points to get almost all the skill I like. In my current playthrough I'm after ballistic speed and range plus fleet endurance and mobility (repairs, supply and fuel costs) and as I'm maxing my XOs I find myself having almost all of this covered.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2025, 03:57:36 AM by Tenso »
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #515 on: April 04, 2025, 02:14:55 AM »

Sorry for the inconvenience, and yeah, You get 6 skills per XO which is already 18, plus the 6-8 player skills. Of course its balanced out by opponents getting much more skills than in vanilla. Your not really supposed to get everything from all XOs so that theres more things you can give a try in another playthrough, to some extend your supposed to feel like your missing out on another fun thing so that theres some excitement to get to use it later in the run or in another save.
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Tenso

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #516 on: April 04, 2025, 04:11:03 AM »

Sorry for the inconvenience, and yeah, You get 6 skills per XO which is already 18, plus the 6-8 player skills. Of course its balanced out by opponents getting much more skills than in vanilla. Your not really supposed to get everything from all XOs so that theres more things you can give a try in another playthrough, to some extend your supposed to feel like your missing out on another fun thing so that theres some excitement to get to use it later in the run or in another save.
Yeah I understand your design point. Even though the "missing out" part can be bypassed by having several officers with different skills during one playthrough. So maybe this design decision is in a weird position at the moment - you actually CAN get all the skills you want if you are willing to do some officers juggling sometimes. Actually, in my current playthrough I'm willing to do just that. Planning to roleplay the "Hegemony officer go rogue" kinda stuff. Starting out as a low tech fleet with officers all about ballistic weapons but secretly building a fleet of automated REDACTED ships and training my tech and automation experts just to switch completely to the REDACTED fleet when ready.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2025, 04:13:47 AM by Tenso »
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #517 on: April 04, 2025, 05:45:40 AM »

Sorry for the inconvenience, and yeah, You get 6 skills per XO which is already 18, plus the 6-8 player skills. Of course its balanced out by opponents getting much more skills than in vanilla. Your not really supposed to get everything from all XOs so that theres more things you can give a try in another playthrough, to some extend your supposed to feel like your missing out on another fun thing so that theres some excitement to get to use it later in the run or in another save.
Yeah I understand your design point. Even though the "missing out" part can be bypassed by having several officers with different skills during one playthrough. So maybe this design decision is in a weird position at the moment - you actually CAN get all the skills you want if you are willing to do some officers juggling sometimes. Actually, in my current playthrough I'm willing to do just that. Planning to roleplay the "Hegemony officer go rogue" kinda stuff. Starting out as a low tech fleet with officers all about ballistic weapons but secretly building a fleet of automated REDACTED ships and training my tech and automation experts just to switch completely to the REDACTED fleet when ready.

Already mentioned in my original comment that i meant for you to be able to swap in your own playthrough, you still dont get all of them at the same time. Being able to swap if your priorities change is part of the fun, still you have to consider if the swap is worth it.
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Duzzit

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #518 on: April 05, 2025, 12:13:39 AM »

I'm doing a bunch of testing as I slowly plug in all the mods I want to have for the patch, and somewhere along the way the dialogue with the recruiting officer where you get the free officer at the start causes a crash. Will go back through what else I've added recently but I know I had it work before.
Quote
124834 [Thread-8] INFO  sound.H  - Playing music with id [faction_hegemony_market_01_neutral_var01.ogg]
124842 [Thread-2] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException: Cannot invoke "com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.InteractionDialogPlugin.advance(float)" because "this.øÒô000" is null
java.lang.NullPointerException: Cannot invoke "com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.InteractionDialogPlugin.advance(float)" because "this.øÒô000" is null
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.newui.X.advanceImpl(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.R.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.o000OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.advanceImpl(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.R.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.base/java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #519 on: April 05, 2025, 02:02:26 AM »

I'm doing a bunch of testing as I slowly plug in all the mods I want to have for the patch, and somewhere along the way the dialogue with the recruiting officer where you get the free officer at the start causes a crash. Will go back through what else I've added recently but I know I had it work before.
Quote
124834 [Thread-8] INFO  sound.H  - Playing music with id [faction_hegemony_market_01_neutral_var01.ogg]
124842 [Thread-2] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException: Cannot invoke "com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.InteractionDialogPlugin.advance(float)" because "this.øÒô000" is null
java.lang.NullPointerException: Cannot invoke "com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.InteractionDialogPlugin.advance(float)" because "this.øÒô000" is null
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.newui.X.advanceImpl(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.R.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.o000OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.advanceImpl(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.R.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.base/java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

Update ship mastery system
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Duzzit

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #520 on: April 06, 2025, 01:27:25 AM »

That did it, saw their update noting it.

Great mod btw, must admit its a bit weird for me since I usually played with either QC or A new level and going above the level cap, but I really enjoy the modularity of swapping out a staff since I anticipate my officers will change after I finish exploration and go more into colonial admin/warfleet. Might still toggle the option to let me have 4 officers instead of 3 >.>.
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Wyrdean

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #521 on: April 06, 2025, 09:44:15 AM »

I still find it a bit unfortunate that running a vanilla-level D-mod ship build with this mod takes up two of your slots, Piracy and Improvisation, and that even though there's a dedicated captain for D-mod builds, they only have three that benefit D-mod ships rather than a full loadout like other specialized captains do.

The worst thing is that you're forced to choose between further reducing d-mod impact with D fortifications, or the whole point of running derelict ships anyways, that being derelict operations which reduces deployment point costs.

I guess I'd just like it if it wasn't fighting itself/critical pieces of the strategy weren't mutually exclusive, because that last -25% D-mod effectiveness is really important, without it d-mods like compromised hull are still -23% to your hull, and since you'll be aiming for 5 of them, most of your ships will end up having it which is a major compromise to be making.

If derelict operations also had the additional -25% D-mod effectiveness, and fortifications *slightly* reduced shield damage taken to still make choosing between them a tough choice I'd think it'd be fine, but to be honest I don't see the point in making the two skills mutually exclusive, none of the other key finals for any of the other specialized captains are mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 09:53:45 AM by Wyrdean »
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #522 on: April 06, 2025, 11:46:55 AM »

I still find it a bit unfortunate that running a vanilla-level D-mod ship build with this mod takes up two of your slots, Piracy and Improvisation, and that even though there's a dedicated captain for D-mod builds, they only have three that benefit D-mod ships rather than a full loadout like other specialized captains do.

The worst thing is that you're forced to choose between further reducing d-mod impact with D fortifications, or the whole point of running derelict ships anyways, that being derelict operations which reduces deployment point costs.

I guess I'd just like it if it wasn't fighting itself/critical pieces of the strategy weren't mutually exclusive, because that last -25% D-mod effectiveness is really important, without it d-mods like compromised hull are still -23% to your hull, and since you'll be aiming for 5 of them, most of your ships will end up having it which is a major compromise to be making.

If derelict operations also had the additional -25% D-mod effectiveness, and fortifications *slightly* reduced shield damage taken to still make choosing between them a tough choice I'd think it'd be fine, but to be honest I don't see the point in making the two skills mutually exclusive, none of the other key finals for any of the other specialized captains are mutually exclusive.

Their mutually exclusive because their a choice between two very strong skills, and imo its a fun choice between spamming damaged ships and making your damaged ships much more tanky. 30% reduced deployment cost is an insane modifier that really does not need any additional effects. 
You also dont need the Piracy XO to run Derelict fleets, yes, the effect is very strong, but your argument misses the fact that dmods themself already reduce supply cost a ton through their own 20% reduction to supplies per deployment.
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Euripides

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #523 on: April 06, 2025, 07:48:01 PM »

Does this mod have a setting or option for increasing the number of XO's? I find 3 is too few. (Nevermind on this, I was looking through the mod folder not thinking to check the options in-game lmao)

This isn't a case of needing to stack more abilities and powergame, but rather the way this is laid out it feels like I'm wasting potential and running into frustrations with building how I'd like to play:
I don't want to be pushed into a sup-optimal build because the officer has a 1-off irrelevant skill I don't need. (Wasted skill slot)
I don't want to be pushed into a sub-optimal build because the officer has a 1-off relevant skill I do need. (Wasted officer slot)

I want to be rewarded for making smart specialization choices, and I want the officers to be meaningfully distinct, but currently this feels too rigid. The easiest immediate solution is another officer.

A more complex solution - imo there needs to be some level of wildcard generalist skill choices. Either for your character or for the individual officers. Something like a 'minor' skill branch that lets you dip into other skill trees or particular adjacent skill trees.

For example: A Major Logistics officer, with skills as he has now, then a minor optional specialization (either in any skillset, or in a skillset adjacent to his Major type) that lets him pick a couple skills outside his specialization. Thus providing a mostly specialized skill system with a little bit of generalization for people's playstyle tastes.

So for example:
Dude Guy [Logistics] - Logistics 1-9 (Core path)
--Sub Specialization [Automation] - Automation 1-5 (Choose 1 out of 5 options)

Guy Dude [Logistics (piracy)] - Piracy 1-9
--Sub Specialization [Logistics] - Logistics 1-5, pick one

Something along those lines.
I think with a touch of generalization in the mix I wouldn't need/want a 4th officer slot for this mod, and it gives people some leeway in builds, for instance - having 3 combat oriented officers, but they all minor in logistics so you've got that shored up a bit.
In fact, I think it actually extends the dynamism and specialization possible while freeing the player's options up more.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 09:19:44 PM by Euripides »
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Wyrdean

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Re: [0.98a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #524 on: April 07, 2025, 12:23:37 PM »

Their mutually exclusive because their a choice between two very strong skills, and imo its a fun choice between spamming damaged ships and making your damaged ships much more tanky. 30% reduced deployment cost is an insane modifier that really does not need any additional effects. 
You also dont need the Piracy XO to run Derelict fleets, yes, the effect is very strong, but your argument misses the fact that dmods themself already reduce supply cost a ton through their own 20% reduction to supplies per deployment.

It feels more necessary to go for piracy in addition to improv because improv only has three choosable skills that affect d-mod ships, and to be honest besides the last two they're mostly logistical, which doesn't really help you in a fight. It's more critical to have every advantage when working with d-mod ships because you're already nerfing yourself by stacking d-mods, and as such running d-mod ships is a strategy you need to go all in with otherwise you're just shooting yourself in the foot by using them.

With a five d-mod setup your ships can have around -45% hull and armor if you get unlucky with the ones you get, and that's with most of the d-mod damage reductions already in place. Running fortifications on d-mod ships only really makes the ships *as* durable or slightly more than the baseline ship, which outside of the few advantages you get with daily maintenance is pretty pointless, you'd be better running any other officer that has a bit of logistical in their tree because chances are they'd give you more damage and more durability than running an improv officer.

If improv had more focused skills for d-mod builds, then running derelict operations (The sole skill that makes d-mod ships viable, since you can make up with each ship being around 20% weaker by having 30% more of them) wouldn't be as critical - since you'd be able to make up for it through, say, weapons taking 3% more flux to fire, but deal 5% more damage per d-mod through something like "Overcharged Munitions" totaling a 15% more flux cost, but 25% more damage at max d-mods - allowing you to instead build around making their maluses into benefits like a skill like derelict fortifications suggests.

Another skill that would be a good fit for a fortifications-style D-mod officer would be something that grants a small amount of OP to each ship based on the number of d-mods they have and the ship's size - say 1 op per d-mod for frigates, 2 for destroyers, 3 for cruisers, and 5 for capitals per d-mod to represent having more room for modifications and customizations now that you don't have to care about not interfering with baseline systems - they're broken anyways. "Junkyard Modfications"

Finally, I don't think it'd be completely broken for there to be a skill that added a small amount of hull repair, say .5% a second, with the restoration limit being based on the amount of d-mods you have, say around 25% per d-mod, meaning at 5 d-mods you'd be able to repair 125% of your ship's hull provided the battle lasted long enough (Of course they often don't), but it'd be to represent how familiar the crew must be maintaining and repairing the ship, now to the point where they're able to perform such repairs even while in battle.

Either way though, while derelict operations is a realllllllly good skill, it's the sole reason why d-mod ship builds are viable, because otherwise unless you're running uncapped ship numbers, you're just going to get stomped later game when each of your ships is strictly worse than each of theirs - derelict operations allows you to build up an early fight advantage by outnumbering them, hopefully allowing you to get enough of an advantage that you make up for each of your ships completely sucking and claim a win.

If the d-mod ship officer had more skills that made d-mod ships stronger, and not just cheaper, it'd be easier to pick fortifications over operations.
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