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[Reshy]

It's been heavily reduced by orders of magnitude.  The chances of you getting a D-Mod on a frigate in vanilla with the skill is about 1 in 10 (90%), in SIC it's about 1 in 3 (60%).  With capital ships it's even worse going from only having a 1 in 4 chance (75%) to get a d-mod to less to 1 in 2 (30%).  These are orders of magnitude of difference, these aren't """"slight"""" nerfs, they're major glaring nerfs.

Hull Restoration in Vanilla is between 75% and 90% dmod chance, based on deployment points. So its not quite 1/10. It is still better, but i think Continious Repairs is more than close enough.
That said, with SiC i want Dmods to be more of a factor, and i dont want this skill to be an instant grab that guarantees that you want to pick the aptitude. I think it works quite well in keeping the amount of dmods you gain to a sane level, but not just making them no longer a factor like Hull Restoration does.

I think the effect though is that it encourages using large safe ships that are very defensive and durable, in a game already known for heavily encouraging this specific playstyle.

[Hereticpurge]

"The reflection calls are pretty expensive, though i wouldnt expect that specific one to cause that many issues. Still, added a check for a specific tab for the next version, so it should no longer run outside of the Character screen when i get to updating it." 

Response within a day.  Best modder ever!!   

[Hereticpurge]

Just an update.  Your fix worked for all the menus.  Obviously the character screen still lags since the script still runs there but it's much less noticeable and very tolerable.  I don't think it's the fault of the mod in general though even if the change mitigates the issues. 

With your script out of the way I was able to do more profiling in fresh loads and loads that were played for a few hours and discovered that Xstream is doing some very very deep recursion and reflection on save and load after a few hours of playing.  I tried to go through the tree but Intellij stopped being willing to show the calls once I got like 2000 recursion steps deep and the UI couldn't do it anymore. 

With that in mind I suspect that your mod isn't the cause of the issue but a victim of another process somewhere that isn't cleaning itself up properly.  Still investigating whether it's another mod or the base game. 

Thought you might want to know that your fix worked.  Thanks!!

[Lukas04]

It's been heavily reduced by orders of magnitude.  The chances of you getting a D-Mod on a frigate in vanilla with the skill is about 1 in 10 (90%), in SIC it's about 1 in 3 (60%).  With capital ships it's even worse going from only having a 1 in 4 chance (75%) to get a d-mod to less to 1 in 2 (30%).  These are orders of magnitude of difference, these aren't """"slight"""" nerfs, they're major glaring nerfs.

Hull Restoration in Vanilla is between 75% and 90% dmod chance, based on deployment points. So its not quite 1/10. It is still better, but i think Continious Repairs is more than close enough.
That said, with SiC i want Dmods to be more of a factor, and i dont want this skill to be an instant grab that guarantees that you want to pick the aptitude. I think it works quite well in keeping the amount of dmods you gain to a sane level, but not just making them no longer a factor like Hull Restoration does.

I think the effect though is that it encourages using large safe ships that are very defensive and durable, in a game already known for heavily encouraging this specific playstyle.

I think that is kind of just overestimating the impact Dmods have, and personaly i think its fitting that aggressive fleets will come out with more damage, i feel like that piece of character is missing with hull restoration.

Just an update.  Your fix worked for all the menus.  Obviously the character screen still lags since the script still runs there but it's much less noticeable and very tolerable.  I don't think it's the fault of the mod in general though even if the change mitigates the issues. 

With your script out of the way I was able to do more profiling in fresh loads and loads that were played for a few hours and discovered that Xstream is doing some very very deep recursion and reflection on save and load after a few hours of playing.  I tried to go through the tree but Intellij stopped being willing to show the calls once I got like 2000 recursion steps deep and the UI couldn't do it anymore. 

With that in mind I suspect that your mod isn't the cause of the issue but a victim of another process somewhere that isn't cleaning itself up properly.  Still investigating whether it's another mod or the base game. 

Thought you might want to know that your fix worked.  Thanks!!

Do tell me if you find more, though just to clarify, was the 25% CPU use when you were filtering for SiC alone or when having all classes visible?
Also, if you want you could do a heap dump, check the "CampaignState" class and search for the "screenPanel" variable. In the screen panels "copy" variable, the first entry in the list should be the highest level of the UI tree that matters for SiCs own check. Maybe see if anything adds panels to it that it doesnt remove (including checking the sub panels below), though that would be definitly a mistake by some mod (maybe even mine, who knows), and it shouldnt be a common one since most mods wouldnt even touch this place ever.

[Phenir]

Mods often add ways to more cheaply remove damage mods later on, for example Ship Mastery's 25% discount and Industrial Evolution's Restoration Docks, which are more relevant late game.

Other mods are irrelevant. Any given mod should not be balanced around another mod unless it's specifically made for that mod, which second-in-command is not made for any other mod.

Sure, but it shows a general trend of mods making it generally easier to remove D-mods, while SIC does the opposite.

And that still doesn't make it inherently a bad thing. Also, it is stated by the mod itself that it makes dmods harder to remove so a nerf here should be expected.

Destroying 240dp worth of enemy ships is only feasible to do once you already have a large fleet of well made ships designed to efficiently farm a particular faction's ships. which is more relevant late game.

The DP requirement makes it unusable early game when you have a small fleet and can't easily take fights with 240dp fleets and punishes for the early game trading/exploration as you will face significantly fewer fleets and DP values.

You don't need to destroy 240 dp at once. The mod keeps track of how much dp you have destroyed and carries it through to further engagements. In other words, destroying two 120 dp fleets is the same as destroying one 240 dp fleet.

I think you missed the point of what I'm saying, destroying 240dp of ships is a lot more involved and risky early game than it is end game when you can be fighting fleets that have DP in the thousands.  Starfaring is supposed to be trade/exploration based, not combat based so it's something you pick up early game and not you know, late game.  Problem is that skill exclusively gets it's value the later you get it.

I think you missed my point in that you can fight many smaller fleets, such as those you find while salvaging derelict probes or salvager fleets that turn hostile (they look big but they have a lot of civ ships), and still accumulate towards dmod removal. Smaller (early game) fleets need less overall dp to remove all their dmods as well. You also don't run into "thousands of DP" fleets in vanilla content unless you are fighting several fleets at once. Even ordos don't breach 1k dp without 3/4 fleets.

No where in the game does it state that starfarer is trade/exploration based, that is your own assumption. Trees may have a theme but they are not meant to be used exclusively within that theme, which you are reminded of via tips. Starfaring in fact has another combat related skill, recovery effort. Additionally, the wiki, written by the mod author, compares piracy and starfarer by saying the former is for resources while the later is for utility and convenience. It doesn't mention combat, trading, nor exploration.

Stripping away the d-mod protection of the original perk means playing a faster, more loose and risky fleet is actively punished, forcing a much much greater priority on few large ships and punishing usage of smallcraft when combined with the prior point.

It still has dmod protection though?

It's been heavily reduced by orders of magnitude.  The chances of you getting a D-Mod on a frigate in vanilla with the skill is about 1 in 10 (90%), in SIC it's about 1 in 3 (60%).  With capital ships it's even worse going from only having a 1 in 4 chance (75%) to get a d-mod to less to 1 in 2 (30%).  These are orders of magnitude of difference, these aren't """"slight"""" nerfs, they're major glaring nerfs.

That's not an order of magnitude and you are over exaggerating the nerf in the context of the mod as a whole. Many skills got nerfed similarly, EX you can't even get electronic warfare without automated ships and even then it only works for automated ships. These changes are likely because now you get combat skills essentially for free, leading to increased player power overall.

[duke]

Hey I like the mod and wanted to leave some feedback.

I feel like you actually have some less choice in the sense that you are encouraged to have very little diversity in your fleet. The way you can stack certain bonuses makes spamming 1 thing at a time become very OP. For example stacking all the speed bonuses my frigates and destroyers were all moving 200-300 speed. Stacking the range bonuses my battleships were outranging stations. Stacking the missile buffs on top of missile spec officers, it was nuclear armageddon. The only really balanced (least powerful) tree I felt was the d-mod tree which is always fun to run around as a junker fleet and felt similar power to base game derelict operations.
It change gameplay way of thinking from "Do I want to have combat skill, economy, or fleet" to "Okay Im choosing combat tree, screw QOL skills, which focused fleet type will I play?"

The thing I dislike the most is adjusting to the removal of QOL and customization mods.
#1 Burn speed 20 atlas being harder to make. Typically you build in insulated engine, cargo, and efficiency with drives and subsystems. With -1 smod cap you are basically forced into using starfaring if you wanna have a big inventory AND 20 burn speed AND non thicc sensor profile
#2 +5 vents in customization. I think you really should try to add this back somewhere. Ship building is 80% of the game at least for me and removing this way of customization in ship building is not good. I would rather have that than say a flat 10% flux disipation somewhere else because it feels better when I am deciding the OP distribution of individual ships, not saying ok my entire fleet needs and will have 5 more vents.
#3 + S-mod skill in a skill tree that is very underpowered. For the same reasons as #2, limiting individual ship customization is not good. HOWEVER a third S-mod is not absolutely necesary on every ship (whereas the option of vents distribution are) as well as some skills being a straight up equivelent to a fleetwide S-mod ex. Focus Lens in technical giving all beams hard flux. So its kind of the opposite of #2.

Things I liked the most are several and mostly combat related.
1#The random difficulty spikes of enemy fleets randomly having god tier set of skills. I dont know if you made certain skillsets for every enemy fleets to have but I think having enemy fleets stack the max juice skills to fight against is very fun.
2# You get to be John Sector yourself with maxed combat skills which is always a fun playthrough.
3# You get to go through and learn a new skill tree and discover the new OP combos which is fun on its own

So tldr in summary I think this mod is very good for warring in the sector type game and not so good for building in the shipyard type game. Give me back my 5 flux vents!

[Shinr]

A request:

A Luna setting to adjust the Executive level cap, up to the maximum of 7, which is the maximum amount of points Management, Smallcraft and Andradanism executive can allocate due to couple of mutually exclusive tiers.

[sot]

Do focused lenses from tech tree stack 20% damage on ships with high scatter amplifier or do nothing for them?

[balordezul]

It would be nice to have another path to removing hull mods via a skill outside of the skill inside of starfaring.  It does feel like the player really needs to start with or farm a starfaring officer as a prime choice early on in the game, well before you can get to the late game money build up.  Sure if the goal is active play vs passive keep it that way but another path with a variation would be nice. Even an event popping up to having a starfaring officer join you as a choice would be smart within X days of the start of the game.  Neat mod but there might be some choices to make the experience less restrictive or penalizing with D-mod management.  It definitely promotes more save scumming in the current mod and now I find myself playing in a more restrictive game loop than the base game. Even putting Continuous Repairs in the player character's tree would work.

[Lukas04]

Hey I like the mod and wanted to leave some feedback.

I feel like you actually have some less choice in the sense that you are encouraged to have very little diversity in your fleet. The way you can stack certain bonuses makes spamming 1 thing at a time become very OP. For example stacking all the speed bonuses my frigates and destroyers were all moving 200-300 speed. Stacking the range bonuses my battleships were outranging stations. Stacking the missile buffs on top of missile spec officers, it was nuclear armageddon. The only really balanced (least powerful) tree I felt was the d-mod tree which is always fun to run around as a junker fleet and felt similar power to base game derelict operations.
It change gameplay way of thinking from "Do I want to have combat skill, economy, or fleet" to "Okay Im choosing combat tree, screw QOL skills, which focused fleet type will I play?"

The thing I dislike the most is adjusting to the removal of QOL and customization mods.
#1 Burn speed 20 atlas being harder to make. Typically you build in insulated engine, cargo, and efficiency with drives and subsystems. With -1 smod cap you are basically forced into using starfaring if you wanna have a big inventory AND 20 burn speed AND non thicc sensor profile
#2 +5 vents in customization. I think you really should try to add this back somewhere. Ship building is 80% of the game at least for me and removing this way of customization in ship building is not good. I would rather have that than say a flat 10% flux disipation somewhere else because it feels better when I am deciding the OP distribution of individual ships, not saying ok my entire fleet needs and will have 5 more vents.
#3 + S-mod skill in a skill tree that is very underpowered. For the same reasons as #2, limiting individual ship customization is not good. HOWEVER a third S-mod is not absolutely necesary on every ship (whereas the option of vents distribution are) as well as some skills being a straight up equivelent to a fleetwide S-mod ex. Focus Lens in technical giving all beams hard flux. So its kind of the opposite of #2.

Things I liked the most are several and mostly combat related.
1#The random difficulty spikes of enemy fleets randomly having god tier set of skills. I dont know if you made certain skillsets for every enemy fleets to have but I think having enemy fleets stack the max juice skills to fight against is very fun.
2# You get to be John Sector yourself with maxed combat skills which is always a fun playthrough.
3# You get to go through and learn a new skill tree and discover the new OP combos which is fun on its own

So tldr in summary I think this mod is very good for warring in the sector type game and not so good for building in the shipyard type game. Give me back my 5 flux vents!

I think generaly its not really any harder to use a mixed fleet, as a more solid fleet build will do well, even when it doesnt get 100% of the bonuses possible. Also helps that Theres enough aptitudes that are rather generic, like Tactical, Technical and Warfare that allow for spreading boosts well around

To your #2 Point, Originaly the skill had that effect, however, since with SiC you can swap out aptitudes much more easily, an effect like it just doesnt really work out. It means readjusting the OP on all ships everytime you switch a technical officer in or out, which just isnt fun. I think overall the +5 you get also wont really make that much of a difference, even when its generaly nice to have.

I dont quite agree on Point #3, Management provides more than enough power, and +1smod is quite universally that almost every ship likes.

Do focused lenses from tech tree stack 20% damage on ships with high scatter amplifier or do nothing for them?

No effect on ships with HSA

It would be nice to have another path to removing hull mods via a skill outside of the skill inside of starfaring.  It does feel like the player really needs to start with or farm a starfaring officer as a prime choice early on in the game, well before you can get to the late game money build up.  Sure if the goal is active play vs passive keep it that way but another path with a variation would be nice. Even an event popping up to having a starfaring officer join you as a choice would be smart within X days of the start of the game.  Neat mod but there might be some choices to make the experience less restrictive or penalizing with D-mod management.  It definitely promotes more save scumming in the current mod and now I find myself playing in a more restrictive game loop than the base game. Even putting Continuous Repairs in the player character's tree would work.

I dont really like any of the solutions proposed here, but i may think about ways to help there a bit.

[BrokenMirror]

Interesting concept, but the stubborn refusal to allow players any ability to access most of the configs makes it almost a hard pass. Hopefully someone makes a mod to fix that or a better iteration of this concept because a hard 3 XO limit is terrible especially as mods add more and more aptitude choices. 

[Strict]

Hello, any plans to make this mod compatible with A New Level of Confidence mod?

[Shinr]

Hello, any plans to make this mod compatible with A New Level of Confidence mod?

You can already change the level cap and the XP gain through this mod's luna-settings.

[Strict]

Hello, any plans to make this mod compatible with A New Level of Confidence mod?

You can already change the level cap and the XP gain through this mod's luna-settings.

Thanks!

[Shinr]

Lukas put out a new update, which is mainly about two things:

1) Buffing Logistical bonuses outside the Logistic Aptitudes;

2) Optional 4th slot, including for the enemies.