Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Anubis-class Cruiser (12/20/24)

Pages: 1 ... 24 25 [26] 27 28 ... 30

Author Topic: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework  (Read 138536 times)

Thoutzan

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #375 on: December 13, 2024, 02:30:31 AM »

Easily one of my favorite Starsector mods of ALL TIME. Thank you for making this happen!!! @Lukas04
Logged

Lukas04

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #376 on: December 13, 2024, 02:39:57 AM »

Easily one of my favorite Starsector mods of ALL TIME. Thank you for making this happen!!! @Lukas04

Glad your enjoying it!
Logged

Morgan Rue

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #377 on: December 13, 2024, 11:17:09 AM »

2nd-in-command's bar event works differently from every vanilla bar event; it goes away when you say no.  This is very awkward as it's, uh, not the expected behavior.  It's especially unfortunate if you want to check something in your fleet or similar before making a decision on which XO to take.

I... guesss it's flagged as a story event maybe, which can be one-time things...?  It doesn't exactly feel like it is one, or should go away, though.
Logged
Dauntless.

taerkar

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #378 on: December 13, 2024, 05:35:41 PM »

Can you add in an option to have a multiplier for the DP or fleet size related skills to have them scale if the max fleet size number is adjusted?
Logged

Lukas04

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #379 on: December 13, 2024, 07:27:18 PM »

2nd-in-command's bar event works differently from every vanilla bar event; it goes away when you say no.  This is very awkward as it's, uh, not the expected behavior.  It's especially unfortunate if you want to check something in your fleet or similar before making a decision on which XO to take.

I... guesss it's flagged as a story event maybe, which can be one-time things...?  It doesn't exactly feel like it is one, or should go away, though.

It goes away as you decline the offer, which is done like this so that you can just decline and dont have to see it again, in case you are the kind of person to not want a starting choice
Logged

TimeDiver

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #380 on: December 13, 2024, 07:35:32 PM »

2nd-in-command's bar event works differently from every vanilla bar event; it goes away when you say no.  This is very awkward as it's, uh, not the expected behavior.  It's especially unfortunate if you want to check something in your fleet or similar before making a decision on which XO to take.

I... guesss it's flagged as a story event maybe, which can be one-time things...?  It doesn't exactly feel like it is one, or should go away, though.

It goes away as you decline the offer, which is done like this so that you can just decline and dont have to see it again, in case you are the kind of person to not want a starting choice
At the risk of coming off as greedy... is there anything that stops you from coding in a third option in rules.csv that amounts to: "Not interested; no need to ask me ever again" while changing the default 'refuse' choice to more of: "Not right now; need to do some other tasks before I can give you an answer."
Logged

Lukas04

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #381 on: December 13, 2024, 08:39:37 PM »

2nd-in-command's bar event works differently from every vanilla bar event; it goes away when you say no.  This is very awkward as it's, uh, not the expected behavior.  It's especially unfortunate if you want to check something in your fleet or similar before making a decision on which XO to take.

I... guesss it's flagged as a story event maybe, which can be one-time things...?  It doesn't exactly feel like it is one, or should go away, though.

It goes away as you decline the offer, which is done like this so that you can just decline and dont have to see it again, in case you are the kind of person to not want a starting choice
At the risk of coming off as greedy... is there anything that stops you from coding in a third option in rules.csv that amounts to: "Not interested; no need to ask me ever again" while changing the default 'refuse' choice to more of: "Not right now; need to do some other tasks before I can give you an answer."

Should be easy to add
Logged

Morgan Rue

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #382 on: December 14, 2024, 12:01:20 PM »

Right now, I feel the various categories for XOs aren't very interesting, and despite the low number of XO slots, you aren't really forced to make choices due to there being... three very generically strong and useful categories- Tactical, Technical and Warfare.  Tactical has range boosts and some powerful damage boosts, Technical has speed boosts and flux boosts, and Warfare has range boosts, maneuverability and armor boosts.  These are all quite powerful and generic enough to apply to everything.  What if instead of these, there were three 'doctrines' which are, yes, generically strong, but also mutually exclusive with each other in the way which Starfaring / Piracy is, and more rooted in Vanilla's flavor.  This would hopefully open up more interesting build choices and encourage players to take the other 'more niche' skill trees.

Doctrine concepts
Decisive Battle (Hegemony's preferred doctrine / Low Tech):
Range!!, ballistic weaponry, armor, keeping opponents engaged and getting that initial engagement.  Hegemony (and to some extent Low Tech ships) *loves* doing one big, decisive engagement.  Two fleets collide, one fleet emerges.  Warfare has a lot of this in it already, but isn't it exactly, i think.  Burn Drive exemplifies this doctrine, I feel.

Hit & Run (Tritachyon's preferred doctrine / High Tech)
Shields, speed, flux capacity & Active Venting.  Also phase ships, though Phase Ships should probably get their own XO.  Tritachyon (and to some extent High Tech ships) loves to be able to engage and disengage at will.  Technical has a lot of this in it already, but, again, isn't exactly it.  The Aurora is obviously the thing which exemplifies this doctrine.

Close Support (Persean League's preferred doctrine / Midline)
This one is a little trickier.  The Persean League likes to have ships which support other ships, either via missiles or via long ranged weaponry(Vigilance, Gryphon), and other ships to keep hostile ships occupied(Falcon, Eagle).  I'd advocate for Zero-Flux boost, missiles, and maybe some weapon output stuff(Sunder & Hammerhead).  Tactics is... vaguely this?  Probably also some defeat-in-detail stuff- the Conquest is, yes, good at Close Support and has a lot of missiles, but is also *the* flagship for defeat-in-detail tactics.  Conquest is probably also the poster for this doctrine.  Oh, if any of these should get that 'beam weapons deal hard flux damage', it should be Close Support, not Hit & Run.


...part of this is just making Speed and Range mutually exclusive instead of allowing players to take both.  But I do pretty strongly feel that Smallcraft, Strikecraft etcetera aren't really competitive options compared to Tactics, Technical and Warfare.  Starfaring is good, Piracy is interesting, I think those two are fine.

oh, it's also notable that the player can't get Industrial Planning with this mod.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 12:12:50 PM by Morgan Rue »
Logged
Dauntless.

SoSD

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #383 on: December 14, 2024, 02:30:33 PM »

Just started my first game with Second-in-Command and while I am enjoying the Smallcraft aptitude, I am really missing vanilla Bulk Transport.

I'm accustomed to quickly getting to a 20 burn fleet with Bulk Transport and Navigation, which has made plodding along at 16 burn in the early game a bit painful.

Perhaps this is the design intent - but I would personally prefer being able to get 20 burn (both in and out of hyperspace) via taking Starfaring in the early game, then swapping out to something else later once you can afford to bring along some tugs.

Thanks for the great mods~
Logged

5ColouredWalker

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #384 on: December 14, 2024, 02:44:23 PM »

-snip-
Not necessarily agreeing, but being mutually exclusive would make Fleet Management feel less bad to take as a early manage to ensure they're not as under-levelled when it comes time to consider adding an extra S-Mod to your fleet, and makes options like Automation exist as interesting side options to consider instead of Fleet Management. (Or as a 'I don't need logistics right now option. which, Heresy given how good Piracy and Logistics is.)

On a similar note, I feel there should be a Fighter combat skill for fleets with a carrier commander even if not using the fighter doctrine officer.

...part of this is just making Speed and Range mutually exclusive instead of allowing players to take both.  But I do pretty strongly feel that Smallcraft, Strikecraft etcetera aren't really competitive options compared to Tactics, Technical and Warfare.  Starfaring is good, Piracy is interesting, I think those two are fine.

oh, it's also notable that the player can't get Industrial Planning with this mod.

I think Smallcraft is probably meant for the Nex start option where you give up Cruisers/Capitals for a frigate boost. It'd also be better early game where it's mostly frigate on frigate with maybe a cruiser or two. Even better if you nab piracy + the doctrine officer that boosts frigates.

Also, Fighter is probably best considered a Doctrine for fighter heavy factions, which are very feast or famine. I imagine Carters Freetraders, Junk Yard Dogs, Auroran Federation, VIC, and Diable Avionics all value it quite highly in carrier fleets. (I have 3 of those, but haven't tried it yet.)
That said working from memory, it should get some manoeuvrability boosters to go with the speed boosters.

Just started my first game with Second-in-Command and while I am enjoying the Smallcraft aptitude, I am really missing vanilla Bulk Transport.

All those abilities are in the Starfarer and Piracy officers.
Albeit with Navigation broken in half to Stealthy Navigation (Given to Piracy, with a little bit of normal navigation) and normal navigation given to Starfarer.
Logged

Phenir

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1087
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #385 on: December 14, 2024, 02:51:53 PM »

Right now, I feel the various categories for XOs aren't very interesting, and despite the low number of XO slots, you aren't really forced to make choices due to there being... three very generically strong and useful categories- Tactical, Technical and Warfare.  Tactical has range boosts and some powerful damage boosts, Technical has speed boosts and flux boosts, and Warfare has range boosts, maneuverability and armor boosts.  These are all quite powerful and generic enough to apply to everything.  What if instead of these, there were three 'doctrines' which are, yes, generically strong, but also mutually exclusive with each other in the way which Starfaring / Piracy is, and more rooted in Vanilla's flavor.  This would hopefully open up more interesting build choices and encourage players to take the other 'more niche' skill trees.
Can't believe you didn't mention management for being generically useful. It is generic: the XO. Yeah it's officer centered but that's still 10 ships in your fleet (or more if you go automated) getting massive bonuses and some of them work without officers, like authority. Side note: I think officer management needs a buff.
I think Smallcraft is probably meant for the Nex start option where you give up Cruisers/Capitals for a frigate boost. It'd also be better early game where it's mostly frigate on frigate with maybe a cruiser or two. Even better if you nab piracy + the doctrine officer that boosts frigates.
Smallcraft is the frigate XO. or did you mean something else by doctrine officer?
Logged

5ColouredWalker

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #386 on: December 14, 2024, 03:01:14 PM »

To Clarrify, I mean the Smallcraft Doctrine Officer is probably best if you also take the starting option that gives you a seperate frigate/destroyer buff for giving up cruisers and larger).
Logged

Reshy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • White
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #387 on: December 14, 2024, 07:53:18 PM »

I did want to ask since this is a discrepancy I noticed, but why do System Mastery and Missile Specialization cost more in the mod?  It seems a bit weird especially since officers can have both of them almost immediately whereas you're uniquely incapable as a pilot.


Additionally, the implementation of needing to destroy 6 Onslaughts (plus their brand new officers) to remove a single hull mod is laughably disproportionate, especially since it's still random so it's 6 onslaughts to remove a single d-mod from a single frigate.
That's a disingenuous interpretation of the effect. It's just 240 dp total, it doesn't matter what that DP actually comes from. Could be freighters (so yeah, you should autoresolve those fleeing civ ships), could be like 6 tiny pirate frigate fleets in a row. Could be a full remnant ordo that actually has like 400 dp so there's a pretty good chance you actually get 2 dmods removed out of it or could be a system's worth of derelict defense fleets.
Again, this sounds like piracy not starfaring.  Piracy should be with the piracy tree, not half wedged into starfaring.


As for wasting it on frigates, spend 10-40k on repairing them first? It can't repair your frigates if they don't have dmods.
Because the point of starfaring is to give your fleet more endurance being far from home IE:  No shipyards.  Restoring them back at home base runs counter to the point of the tree.

I think you'll find many of the skills are a bit nerfed here but that is made up by being able to have 3 XOs. Even if you spend a slot on piracy or starfaring (you don't have to use a logistics officer btw), I'm certain it's still an increase in player power.
Most notable fleets I've encountered have had two combat-specialized XOs each with capped level.  Assuming you are devoting one slot to your logistics you're only breaking even at best, but the NPC fleets don't take any experience to have high level XOs yours however require a major amount.


Will comment that the "killing X DP of ships" effect also feels like it should be in the Piracy XO tree rather than starfaring (since starfaring is in every other case about maintaining your stuff and finding new stuff, not fighting other fleets).
To me, starfaring is the "I'm gonna explore the sector and survey and loot literally every planet I come across" tree. While you're out doing that kind of stuff, you'll definitely find some opportunities to fight stuff still. Plus I don't think pirates are really concerned with restoring their stuff, they'd probably sell the scraps they'd use to do that instead hence the credit capstone. Additionally, while there is a theme for the each skill tree, they are not intended to only be used within that theme. There's even a loading tip added that says exactly that.
[/quote]
I feel like this isn't really accurately answered and you're contradicting your own point from earlier by saying "just restore forehead" when you're in deep space far from home.


Ended up disabling this mod because XOs don't get any experience from non-combat sources. I'm doing a mining/surveying focused game (at least starting out) and I'm completely kneecapped by not being able to get any kind of logistical skills aside from the free one you get upon hiring an XO.

I was looking forward to exploring this mod, but I don't want to be locked into fighting 24/7 from the very beginning of the game.

This has been my experience as well, the XOs level up super slowly and the AI fleets usually only ever have max or near-Max XOs anyway.  Maybe a system where you can just hire captured XOs would be better, that way if you do fight one of the steroided up fleets and win you can claim the experienced XOs for your own.


Right now, I feel the various categories for XOs aren't very interesting, and despite the low number of XO slots, you aren't really forced to make choices due to there being... three very generically strong and useful categories- Tactical, Technical and Warfare.  Tactical has range boosts and some powerful damage boosts, Technical has speed boosts and flux boosts, and Warfare has range boosts, maneuverability and armor boosts.  These are all quite powerful and generic enough to apply to everything.  What if instead of these, there were three 'doctrines' which are, yes, generically strong, but also mutually exclusive with each other in the way which Starfaring / Piracy is, and more rooted in Vanilla's flavor.  This would hopefully open up more interesting build choices and encourage players to take the other 'more niche' skill trees.
This is something I noticed, if you take the full combat buff options you run into a situation where your ships are so roided up that you'll barely take losses, this combined with nerfs to D-mod negating skills you get a win more and lose more dynamic that's not the greatest.
Logged

Lukas04

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #388 on: December 15, 2024, 05:05:23 AM »

Right now, I feel the various categories for XOs aren't very interesting, and despite the low number of XO slots, you aren't really forced to make choices due to there being... three very generically strong and useful categories- Tactical, Technical and Warfare.  Tactical has range boosts and some powerful damage boosts, Technical has speed boosts and flux boosts, and Warfare has range boosts, maneuverability and armor boosts.  These are all quite powerful and generic enough to apply to everything.  What if instead of these, there were three 'doctrines' which are, yes, generically strong, but also mutually exclusive with each other in the way which Starfaring / Piracy is, and more rooted in Vanilla's flavor.  This would hopefully open up more interesting build choices and encourage players to take the other 'more niche' skill trees.

Doctrine concepts
Decisive Battle (Hegemony's preferred doctrine / Low Tech):
Range!!, ballistic weaponry, armor, keeping opponents engaged and getting that initial engagement.  Hegemony (and to some extent Low Tech ships) *loves* doing one big, decisive engagement.  Two fleets collide, one fleet emerges.  Warfare has a lot of this in it already, but isn't it exactly, i think.  Burn Drive exemplifies this doctrine, I feel.

Hit & Run (Tritachyon's preferred doctrine / High Tech)
Shields, speed, flux capacity & Active Venting.  Also phase ships, though Phase Ships should probably get their own XO.  Tritachyon (and to some extent High Tech ships) loves to be able to engage and disengage at will.  Technical has a lot of this in it already, but, again, isn't exactly it.  The Aurora is obviously the thing which exemplifies this doctrine.

Close Support (Persean League's preferred doctrine / Midline)
This one is a little trickier.  The Persean League likes to have ships which support other ships, either via missiles or via long ranged weaponry(Vigilance, Gryphon), and other ships to keep hostile ships occupied(Falcon, Eagle).  I'd advocate for Zero-Flux boost, missiles, and maybe some weapon output stuff(Sunder & Hammerhead).  Tactics is... vaguely this?  Probably also some defeat-in-detail stuff- the Conquest is, yes, good at Close Support and has a lot of missiles, but is also *the* flagship for defeat-in-detail tactics.  Conquest is probably also the poster for this doctrine.  Oh, if any of these should get that 'beam weapons deal hard flux damage', it should be Close Support, not Hit & Run.


...part of this is just making Speed and Range mutually exclusive instead of allowing players to take both.  But I do pretty strongly feel that Smallcraft, Strikecraft etcetera aren't really competitive options compared to Tactics, Technical and Warfare.  Starfaring is good, Piracy is interesting, I think those two are fine.

oh, it's also notable that the player can't get Industrial Planning with this mod.

I personaly prefer most aptitudes being generaly useful in a variety of situation, i think it makes the choice more fun, especialy because you arent limited to just what appears the definitly perfect fit right from the beginning. Theres a bunch of specialised aptitudes & theres rather generic ones, and imo combining them is just rather fun, and thats what ive seen from general feedback on the discord so far as well. The Solution provided here kind of just dumbs down the choices you get.

Just started my first game with Second-in-Command and while I am enjoying the Smallcraft aptitude, I am really missing vanilla Bulk Transport.

I'm accustomed to quickly getting to a 20 burn fleet with Bulk Transport and Navigation, which has made plodding along at 16 burn in the early game a bit painful.

Perhaps this is the design intent - but I would personally prefer being able to get 20 burn (both in and out of hyperspace) via taking Starfaring in the early game, then swapping out to something else later once you can afford to bring along some tugs.

Thanks for the great mods~

While Bulk-Transport no longer has the +2 burn for civilian ships, Navigation is unchanged and Starfarings origin skill provides a flat +2 boost while in Hyperspace. That one is of course not doubled by sustained burn, in case all your ships are just logi, but i think thats good enough.


Quote
//Replying to Reshy here, for some reason the Forum Quotes are really messed up when replying to that one so not doing that
Not sure why you are so hung up on the aspect of Starfaring having that dmod repairing skill, Starfaring is really generic and i dont think making use of salvage from Combat to fix up your ships is something only Pirates would ever do.

On Terms of difficulty, NPC fleets are capped to not be able to have as many skills as the player at maximum, generaly 1 less but there is also a random roll to further decrease available skills. They are also much less capable at making good use of those skills.



For the people not really liking those answers, id recommend just not using the mod to be honest. Its pretty shaped to what i want from the mod and im not really going to change it all that much in core structure. I do want to overhaull Logistics a little but thats another story. Ive personaly used my mod a ton so far and im having a blast with it, and im also having a blast talking to people using it on the discord, so i dont quite see a reason for me to change the large aspects anymore.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 05:09:53 AM by Lukas04 »
Logged

cghhj

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #389 on: December 15, 2024, 08:02:43 AM »

Well, I guess if you want some skill combine really hard... you can make your personal XO expansion?
So there will be SUCH KIND of officer spawn for you to hire.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 24 25 [26] 27 28 ... 30