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[Tranquility]

I think the Heavy Burst Laser, as a whole, just suffers mainly due to these factors:

• Opportunity Cost: Since the HBL takes up a medium energy slot, it faces a lot of competition from damage-focused medium energy weapons. Many high-tech ships - namely the Fury and Aurora - practically depend on their medium energy slots for DPS (and especially DPS that deals well against armor!), so putting a HBL on them is almost always a cut into their offensive potential (one less Heavy Blaster/Phase Lance/Pulse Laser). And the other ships that incidentally have medium energy slots, like the Apogee, Conquest, or Paragon, would still want to use these slots offensively (e.g. using Graviton Beams or IR Autolances), as not only because the extra damage is almost always helpful, but also that...
  
  
• Unimpressive Stats: ...the HBL isn't really that much of an upgrade from the Burst PD Laser (small Burst). First, the damage. While the HBL does have 165 damage per charge, which is over the crucial 150 damage threshold needed to one-shot Harpoons, Squalls, Salamanders, and Pilums and two-shot Sabots and Atropos, the small Burst's 128 damage only really needs S-Modded Advanced Turret Gyros at minimum for it to also reach that threshold (128 * 1.25 = 160). If taking up an S-Mod slot just for that isn't desirable, Integrated Point Defense AI (IPDAI) adds an even better 50% damage vs missiles (allowing the small Burst to also two-shot Hammers and the unsplit Hurricane MIRV, since 128 * 1.5 = 192, over half of the Hammer's 350 HP), while also letting any PD ignore flares, and only costing 3/6/9/15 OP to take. For frigates and destroyers, it only takes 1 or 2 small Bursts for the damage value of IPDAI to be equivalent to 1 small Burst, and the rest can more easily spare the extra OP investment and a few small energy slots than they can one or two medium energy slots (again, the opportunity cost of taking HBL over other medium energies).
  
  Second, the refire delay and the charge rate between the small Burst PD and its medium counterpart is exactly the same: 0.6 seconds and 2 seconds, respectively. What that means is that the rate at which the HBL can take down missiles is still the same as the small Burst, so a constant stream of Harpoons or Pilums will overwhelm the HBL just the same as a buffed small Burst (yes, the HBL's higher charge capacity of 6 over the small Burst's 4 helps against the first missile volley, but that advantage is rendered moot if fighters or swarm missiles force the HBL to keep firing anyways). Plus, the unchanged fire/charge rate also means the actual DPS of the HBL is barely higher than the small Burst - 275 burst/82 sustained over the small Burst's 214 burst/64 sustained, a measly ~31% increase in DPS for a medium energy weapon. As such, in terms of DPS gained per point of OP, the small Burst overwhelmingly wins over the HBL.
  
  Next, the HBL's advantages does not fully cover the costs of using it over the small Burst. The HBL's 600 range is great for a PD weapon and, because of that, is the HBL's primary advantage, but even that isn't enough to cover for the (again) opportunity cost of using up a medium energy slot. In fact, the small Burst's range of 500 is actually fine due to its burst-fire nature, especially when buffed with PD damage bonuses to let it one-shot or two-shot most missiles. Moreover, the higher armor penetration of the HBL isn't that much higher than the small Burst; HBL's beam DPS is only 450 (225 damage for armor damage calculations) compared to the small Burst's 350 beam DPS (175 damage for armor damage calculations) - a difference of merely ~28.5%. When also taking the HBL's unchanged fire/charge rate into consideration, the HBL's overall damage output, even against armor, is still not impressive for what should be an upgrade over the small Burst.
  
  Finally, for some Ludd-forsaken reason, the turn rate of the HBL is, in fact, significantly worse than the small Burst, with the HBL having a turn rate of 40 instead of the small Burst's 100. Even the Paladin PD, the large equivalent, has a higher turn rate than it, at 75! This alone is why the HBL is the worst weapon in the game!!!
  

Given that the general progression of energy weapons almost always favors the larger slot weapons for pure efficiency and range (unlike ballistics, which can still use small slots for kinetic damage or short-ranged, high-DPS PD, leaving the medium and large slots for longer-ranged PD or superior HE damage), the HBL would need to perform at its PD role far better than its small counterpart for it to be worth using up the medium energy slot, which it currently fails at doing. If the HBL did something unique over the small Burst (like bringing back its ability to ignore flares or something else akin to that?), then I could imagine it being used in ships with spare medium energies like the Eagle or Apogee. Otherwise, the small Burst + PD damage bonus combo just outclasses it primarily due to that having less of an opportunity cost, as small energies are just generally worse for damage output than medium energies.

[TK3600]

I really wish I had the new simulator  . I’d love to have some fixed targets to test on.

What I’d really like to test are the extremes of the HBL. Base, w/IPDAI, w/Point Defense skill (and Elite PD), w/Ex. Mags (and S-modded) and with combos of these. Technically, it has a lot of upgrade paths. Does it ever get OP if it’s maxed out? Not that you would dedicate a whole build to it but…

With PD skill or IPDAI, it one-shots a lot more than base. With E Mags (especially S-modded), it has more shots to spare (and shoots 50% faster). It seems to me like the base HBL isn’t worth its price but any upgraded version is decent enough. That’s a weird spot to be in, balance-wise.

Point being, if we mess with base stats any, it will have downstream effects on all the upgrades. That said, if it was a little overtuned with like 4 upgrades, it’s not like you didn’t pay for them.

Extended mag tend to be gain smod for other purpose, so no opportunity cost taking it for HBL. Rest has a heavy opportunity cost, so if it ends up being really good with them it is still balanced.

Currently base version is garbage, 4 upgrades buff it to merely subpar, which is meaningless because other small slots also gets same upgrades benefits.

I want it to be subpar in base version, but above average if upgraded with extended mag smod and PD skill.

[TK3600]

I think the Heavy Burst Laser, as a whole, just suffers mainly due to these factors:

• Opportunity Cost: Since the HBL takes up a medium energy slot, it faces a lot of competition from damage-focused medium energy weapons. Many high-tech ships - namely the Fury and Aurora - practically depend on their medium energy slots for DPS (and especially DPS that deals well against armor!), so putting a HBL on them is almost always a cut into their offensive potential (one less Heavy Blaster/Phase Lance/Pulse Laser). And the other ships that incidentally have medium energy slots, like the Apogee, Conquest, or Paragon, would still want to use these slots offensively (e.g. using Graviton Beams or IR Autolances), as not only because the extra damage is almost always helpful, but also that...
  
  
• Unimpressive Stats: ...the HBL isn't really that much of an upgrade from the Burst PD Laser (small Burst). First, the damage. While the HBL does have 165 damage per charge, which is over the crucial 150 damage threshold needed to one-shot Harpoons, Squalls, Salamanders, and Pilums and two-shot Sabots and Atropos, the small Burst's 128 damage only really needs S-Modded Advanced Turret Gyros at minimum for it to also reach that threshold (128 * 1.25 = 160). If taking up an S-Mod slot just for that isn't desirable, Integrated Point Defense AI (IPDAI) adds an even better 50% damage vs missiles (allowing the small Burst to also two-shot Hammers and the unsplit Hurricane MIRV, since 128 * 1.5 = 192, over half of the Hammer's 350 HP), while also letting any PD ignore flares, and only costing 3/6/9/15 OP to take. For frigates and destroyers, it only takes 1 or 2 small Bursts for the damage value of IPDAI to be equivalent to 1 small Burst, and the rest can more easily spare the extra OP investment and a few small energy slots than they can one or two medium energy slots (again, the opportunity cost of taking HBL over other medium energies).
  
  Second, the refire delay and the charge rate between the small Burst PD and its medium counterpart is exactly the same: 0.6 seconds and 2 seconds, respectively. What that means is that the rate at which the HBL can take down missiles is still the same as the small Burst, so a constant stream of Harpoons or Pilums will overwhelm the HBL just the same as a buffed small Burst (yes, the HBL's higher charge capacity of 6 over the small Burst's 4 helps against the first missile volley, but that advantage is rendered moot if fighters or swarm missiles force the HBL to keep firing anyways). Plus, the unchanged fire/charge rate also means the actual DPS of the HBL is barely higher than the small Burst - 275 burst/82 sustained over the small Burst's 214 burst/64 sustained, a measly ~31% increase in DPS for a medium energy weapon. As such, in terms of DPS gained per point of OP, the small Burst overwhelmingly wins over the HBL.
  
  Next, the HBL's advantages does not fully cover the costs of using it over the small Burst. The HBL's 600 range is great for a PD weapon and, because of that, is the HBL's primary advantage, but even that isn't enough to cover for the (again) opportunity cost of using up a medium energy slot. In fact, the small Burst's range of 500 is actually fine due to its burst-fire nature, especially when buffed with PD damage bonuses to let it one-shot or two-shot most missiles. Moreover, the higher armor penetration of the HBL isn't that much higher than the small Burst; HBL's beam DPS is only 450 (225 damage for armor damage calculations) compared to the small Burst's 350 beam DPS (175 damage for armor damage calculations) - a difference of merely ~28.5%. When also taking the HBL's unchanged fire/charge rate into consideration, the HBL's overall damage output, even against armor, is still not impressive for what should be an upgrade over the small Burst.
  
  Finally, for some Ludd-forsaken reason, the turn rate of the HBL is, in fact, significantly worse than the small Burst, with the HBL having a turn rate of 40 instead of the small Burst's 100. Even the Paladin PD, the large equivalent, has a higher turn rate than it, at 75! This alone is why the HBL is the worst weapon in the game!!!
  

Given that the general progression of energy weapons almost always favors the larger slot weapons for pure efficiency and range (unlike ballistics, which can still use small slots for kinetic damage or short-ranged, high-DPS PD, leaving the medium and large slots for longer-ranged PD or superior HE damage), the HBL would need to perform at its PD role far better than its small counterpart for it to be worth using up the medium energy slot, which it currently fails at doing. If the HBL did something unique over the small Burst (like bringing back its ability to ignore flares or something else akin to that?), then I could imagine it being used in ships with spare medium energies like the Eagle or Apogee. Otherwise, the small Burst + PD damage bonus combo just outclasses it primarily due to that having less of an opportunity cost, as small energies are just generally worse for damage output than medium energies.

Thank you. You worded better than I ever could.

Even after many buffs, HBL is contender for one of worst weapon in game. It shows it is not just weak, there may have been a misconception at design level to give it this stats, yet somehow consider it as balanced.

It is really weak. For some odd reason Alex fear it may threaten Phase lance when it is less than half its potency. Perhaps there is some story we are missing. Maybe during testing Alex found it to be OP, and nerfed it too hard. Maybe.

But right now it is not even close to be viable. There is a huge space for it to be buffed without becoming OP, like you can buff it up to 50% and it will still not be OP.

[FooF]

Good post TK3600. Agreed on just about everything.

After doing some extensive testing against in a Fury with the front Energy as an HBL, I've come to the conclusion that base stat tweaks are all it really needs.

My initial experiment was making the "maxed out" HBL the base HBL so I gave it stats of:

900 damage/sec (equivalent of bonuses of IPDAI+PD Skill) - ideally this would be scripted "+100% damage to missiles/fighters" and leave the base at 450
Recharge of every 1.33 seconds (50% more than current, i.e. what you normally get with S-modded E Mags)
Increased rotation speed to 75
All other stats the stayed the same (same base charges of 6, 600 range, etc.)

Strangely, this didn't initially feel too strong, despite the insane numbers on the face of it. But what happens when we start throwing a bunch of modifiers on top? Well, about what you would expect with a very unexpected surprise at the end. With IPDAI, Elite PD, S-modded E Mags, and even S-moded Advanced Turret Gyros it was ridiculously powerful swatting down entire waves of Piranha bombs (like 3-4 per burst), could kill Broadswords with 2 bursts, and sustained itself pretty well because its recharge was now to a little under a second. I went with a 2nd HBL on the Fury just to see the dervish of death and it was almost laughable how OP they were...

...until I got to the Carriers themselves. I forgot that Burst Lasers have scripting so that they don't waste charges against ships unless they're topped off. Suddenly, their  effectiveness took a nose dive because they do everything in their power to avoid shooting at actual warships if there are missiles/fighters in the area. Even with that wrinkle, they were clearly over-tuned if there weren't fighters around. The sheer damage output was insane and even accounting for the idealized scripted damage, the damage/flux efficiency was likewise insane.

Time to try something new: how can I increase the DPS without increasing the actual damage/sec of the beam? How about we increase the burst size of the beam? Currently it's .3 seconds, let's just nudge it up to .35. Still at 450 damage/sec, but the 15% extra time on target made a world of difference (it clearly reached a breakpoint). It was killing most missiles in one shot reliably. Adding all the extra hullmods and PD modifiers, it wasn't a terror to warships because the extra damage only applied to the PD portion. I kept the recharge at .75 ammo/sec. I think it having 50% better sustained damage vs the Small counterpart is fair. I also kept the turn speed at 75 because I don't know what rationale there is for it being half as fast (or worse) than all other Energy PD.

Final stats that felt good without being obviously OP:

450 beam damage/sec (unchanged. Flux/sec also unchanged)
0.35 burst length (from .3)
.75 ammo regen/sec (from .5)
75 turn speed (from 40)

The significant difference between the above stats and current are the sustained damage numbers. It's 141 vs 82 (~70% increase). With S-modded E Mags, it jumps to 211, putting it pretty close to a Phase Lance. All this with the caveat that this gun really doesn't want to shoot at warships and costs a story point (so I still don't think it's all that crazy). It is a pretty decent PD platform though, especially once you start adding PD enhancing hullmods and skills. It also distinguishes itself from the Small version in the best ways: 50% faster reload, longer/heavier burst damage, greater range, and over twice the sustained damage, though at slightly worse efficiency. It sort of doubles as a mediocre generalist weapon if you invest in it and there aren't a bunch of fighters/missiles around.

I'd still rate it below a Flak Cannon, in general, but with some investment, it reaches parity. For Energy PD, that's pretty good. Is it worth the opportunity cost? Probably not for quite a few ships but for those that can spare it, it makes the HBL about as attractive as throwing in a Graviton or IRAL.

[Alex]

Thank you for all the research! I really like the changes being conservative and minimalistic, and the focus on hitting a breakpoint makes a ton of sense. Made a note to apply these tomorrow

[FooF]

Thank you for all the research! I really like the changes being conservative and minimalistic, and the focus on hitting a breakpoint makes a ton of sense. Made a note to apply these tomorrow

Nice! 

[Alex]

And, done! Gave it a quick spin and really liking how it feels at baseline - capable, but not "too much". Thank you again!

[FooF]

I’m glad it felt reasonable!

I never tried it with High Scatter Amplifier to see if it kind of became a generalist weapon but, again, there’s investment and trade-offs with that. I might try some more extreme builds to see if it does ever get OP but the preserving shots behavior really limits what it can do against non-PD threats. I know that mechanic wasn’t designed for that purpose, but it works really well in this situation.

[Alex]

Hmm - the only thing I'd be careful with is that you can take manual control of the weapon and use up all the charges. So if it becomes OP under those circumstances, it's encouraging an annoying playstyle (i.e. being forced to control it manually) by making it optimal. So I wouldn't rely on that as a balancing factor, if that makes sense.

[TK3600]

Dont worry, it will not be OP. At its finest(build maximum around it) it is a much worse phase lance or much worse pulse laser.

[FooF]

Dont worry, it will not be OP. At its finest(build maximum around it) it is a much worse phase lance or much worse pulse laser.

Yeah, at best, it’s a poor facsimile of a Phase Lance. PL has significantly better penetration and doesn’t require manual aiming. The only thing the HBL would have as an advantage is range, since it can get the bonus from Elite PD.

[Insolent Peon]

The burst lasers are, aesthetically, my favorite weapon type. Glad to see that the heavy version will be getting some developer love.

[Doctorhealsgood]

Happy ending yay.

[kaoseth]

And, done! Gave it a quick spin and really liking how it feels at baseline - capable, but not "too much". Thank you again!

There's one more thing you should do to it Alex...   Refactor the art so it looks more distinct from it's smaller sibling.