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[FooF]

This is a neat idea and I really appreciate the reasoning behind it! But at that point, it wouldn't really be a HBL, would it? Feels more like just a different weapon. Hmm.

It could still have an ammo count if we insist on it being “burst” but to your point, it probably is a different weapon. One that I would much prefer to the HBL given relatively similar cost. Thaago’s proposed weapon would ostensibly be relatively good at chewing hull, which few Energy weapons do and there is some design space for.

I might play around with turning the existing Ion Pulser into a faux version of this. I’d imagine it spraying a bunch of Frag bolts around with low accuracy and range might mimic the proposed weapon.

[Princess of Evil]

Doesn't the LRPD laser actually extend to full range faster than the tactical laser? I remember being frustrated with how long it took tac lasers to reach out and actually start damaging things.

Yep, i already mentioned that. It's 50% slower, which is really noticeable when it constantly switches targets.

I might play around with turning the existing Ion Pulser into a faux version of this. I%u2019d imagine it spraying a bunch of Frag bolts around with low accuracy and range might mimic the proposed weapon.

Tbh imo Ion Pulser is already one of the best medium energies.

[Killer of Fate]

This is a neat idea and I really appreciate the reasoning behind it! But at that point, it wouldn't really be a HBL, would it? Feels more like just a different weapon. Hmm.

It could still have an ammo count if we insist on it being “burst” but to your point, it probably is a different weapon. One that I would much prefer the HBL given relatively similar cost. Thaago’s proposed weapon would ostensibly be relatively good at chewing hull, which few Energy weapons do and there is some design space for.

I might play around with turning the existing Ion Pulser into a faux version of this. I’d imagine it spraying a bunch of Frag bolts around with low accuracy and range might mimic the proposed weapon.

I actually already invented this weapon... And tested it... Kinda... Its stats were too high for Starsector though. So, I would nerf it if I were to release it publicly.

Spoiler

[close]

it's the weird Pulse Laser that shoots bullets that sound like crows.

The thing about it though was that it was functionally identical to the Thumper. Thumper is already an energy weapon that is restricted by ammunition. Designed to chew hull whilst subtly perform maybe an accidental anti-missile role. And a weapon like that performing an entirely anti-missile role would just be either a giant Vulcan... Or Guardian PD.

[Bungee_man]

I think the real question to answer here is the role that the weapon should fill. For example, an ion beam is useful on any ship that needs to keep enemy shields up at a distance (Allowing support Falcons to do their jobs very well), a graviton beam is a safe option for a spare medium energy slot that improves performance in relatively even fights (which fits nicely on many Paragon builds, and helps flux-hungry Sunders perform better in a support role), a phase lance works best on ships that are maneuverable enough to make use of a close-range strike weapon, but not enough to make good use of an antimatter blaster (making it a good fit for the Eagle), and a heavy blaster lets a ship with lots of spare flux and no heavy weapons deal heavy damage (which suits the Aurora).

I don't see many situations where "I want to shoot down missiles with my medium energy slot" comes up. IR autolance is a flexible weapon that can shoot down fighters while performing other useful jobs, and shields obsolete PD on most ships with a medium energy slot. If it could serve as an alpha strike weapon, it would need to differentiate itself from the phase lance and the antimatter blaster, and "alpha strike weapon that's also point defense" seems like a very strange niche. Is it meant to be a high-tech counterpart to the Devastator?

[Alex]

Thaago’s proposed weapon would ostensibly be relatively good at chewing hull, which few Energy weapons do and there is some design space for.

The IR Autolance is very much in that niche, no? It gets real tricky trying to make sure the Phase Lance, the HBL, and the IR Autolance don't step on each other too much.

[Princess of Evil]

Which is why i was thinking about a medium efficient anti-destroyer/cruiser armor HBL. It wouldn't be better, but it would be easier to use.

[Grievous69]

Thaago’s proposed weapon would ostensibly be relatively good at chewing hull, which few Energy weapons do and there is some design space for.

The IR Autolance is very much in that niche, no? It gets real tricky trying to make sure the Phase Lance, the HBL, and the IR Autolance don't step on each other too much.

True but that's an energy weapon for midline ships, I think FooF meant frag weapon for high tech short range ships.

This has been happening for a while (and I like it), there are clear energy weapons designed and made for a specific tech level in mind. Not that the others can't use it, it's just not optimal. Which again is completely fine.

[Alex]

Which is why i was thinking about a medium efficient anti-destroyer/cruiser armor HBL. It wouldn't be better, but it would be easier to use.

That seems like it steps on the Phase Lance, right? Make the HBL too good at anti-armor, and it takes both phase lance niches of anti-armor and anti-heavy-fighter while also having the PD tag.

True but that's an energy weapon for midline ships, I think FooF meant frag weapon for high tech short range ships.

Ah, that makes sense, yeah.

[Princess of Evil]

Which is why i was thinking about a medium efficient anti-destroyer/cruiser armor HBL. It wouldn't be better, but it would be easier to use.

That seems like it steps on the Phase Lance, right? Make the HBL too good at anti-armor, and it takes both phase lance niches of anti-armor and anti-heavy-fighter while also having the PD tag.

The thought was to not buff its armor damage to PL's levels, but increase DPS through other means instead. Increasing its magazine stats, maybe. Its current armor damage is, like, alright for something meant to damage same-size ships, but the burst is tiny and DPS is basically just a small slot weapon.

[Sandor057]

I'd just like to point out, that there are only 3 ships I can think of that make use of the HBL:
The Astral, where it... well it's an option but armaments are just an afterthought right behind the fighters and the large missiles.
The Apogee, where the ship system already complements PD, so downgrading PD is not an issue.
The Paragon, where I actually use 2 at the rear.

Unless you're going for an Expanded Magazines S-mod meme build I don't think you want it in any forward medium energy mounts. So what I see as a problem is the lack of options where you can slot it as an actual PD in a meaningful way.

[FooF]

@Killer of Fate

Similar, yes, but not quite what I’m picturing. I’d be curious what the damage/shot is since it had no problem nuking the Harpoons that were launched.

@Grevious69

Right. The IRAL and PL have pinpoint accuracy and this would be spraying rounds. Its ability to put concentrated DPS on target would be minimal, except at point blank ranges. I think that distinguishes it from the former two. Yet, it could still have decent range (600) due to so many shots being wasted in the attempt.

What I’m really envisioning is an oscillating fan-shaped spread that sprays rounds sequentially from a central point. Basically windshield wiper action. It doesn’t aim so much as saturate an area in front of it with projectiles from left to right and vice versa. Or, it does it in a burst of like 20 shots, resets, then repeats at regular intervals. A ton of shots are useless but it’s effective as a screen or as a point blank shotgun against hull.

[Killer of Fate]

@Killer of Fate

Similar, yes, but not quite what I’m picturing. I’d be curious what the damage/shot is since it had no problem nuking the Harpoons that were launched.

yeah, it was a ridiculous weapon... Absolutely so, but conceptually it was meant to serve on an Apogee. It was supposed to be put on its sides. Immunising its flanks, whilst allowing it to occasionally shoot down missiles albeit at low flux efficiency.

[Megas]

Unless you're going for an Expanded Magazines S-mod meme build I don't think you want it in any forward medium energy mounts. So what I see as a problem is the lack of options where you can slot it as an actual PD in a meaningful way.

I have used it on hard beam Wolf build.  (High Scatter Amplifer plus s-mod Mags plus ePD.)  That said, this is a case of tailoring an officer to a ship, which is not practical to build because of the inflexible officer problem.

Heavy Burst Laser is more useful for ships that cannot use the small burst PD but can use medium because of synergy mount.

Until IRAL came along (and Phase Lance had 1.2 efficiency), I used Heavy Burst Laser primarily as an assault weapon.  I would like to see a Heavy Burst Laser buff turn it toward "HMG 2.0".

[prav]

I don't think the HBL needs a mechanics or role change, it just needs its power level upped a bit (again).

There's a lot of headroom until it starts replacing the phase beam on most ships. If it does so on a few ships, well, mission accomplished.

[Brainwright]

I'm hearing this, and I'm starting to think of two possibilities based on doing a lot of burst PD damage :

First is the simplest, you just make each beam less damage and drastically increase the maximum ammo, regeneration, and fire rate.   Instead of doing high single target damage, it shreds anything that gets into close range.  Probably is a better fit with PD lasers, because shots that do more damage than necessary to destroy a target waste dps.

Second is to remove the ammo system and rig a burst fire so each shot is individually targeted.  This is something that is somewhere between normal cooldown and ammo-based cooldown, and it synergizes well with existing bonuses.  The significant difference is this weapon doesn't become inconsistent with constant use like an ammo-based cooldown and can still do significant burst damage unlike semi-auto.   Just a minor conceptual shift.