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Author Topic: Is Atlas OP?  (Read 5132 times)

Brainwright

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2024, 11:15:44 AM »

One thing I haven't seen brought up yet is that getting caught out by a superior enemy fleet while you have an Atlas in your fleet will force you to fight off the enemy head-on or flee using a SP to keep it intact, or else your precious Atlas gets virtually picked off (and is then unrecoverable) during the pursuit battle thanks to its awful top speed. This usually isn't a big deal if you have plenty of SP to spare, or if you are good at combatting enemy fleets or avoiding confrontations altogether. However, near the start of the game, you usually will not have that much SP to burn through if you're saving them for S-Mods in other ships/story dialogue/colony improvements, and you might not have the Tech or Industry skills to reliably evade fleets or comfortably run capital-class ships early on. Combined with the fact that S-Modding an Atlas to further outmatch the other logistic ships also requires SP (that you don't get bonus XP from at all unless you scuttle), and the rarity of coming across an Atlas in the first place, I'm not convinced that the Atlas should be nerfed to compensate for the power of logistic S-Mods.

(If anything, it kinda sounds like the S-Mod bonuses for logistic hullmods should be real problem here? I don't see it that way, of course, as most of them don't affect the combat layer, but I can imagine how they can mess the usual progression of civilian logistics a bit.)

This is moot, because the way chase mechanics work, you are always guaranteed to lose logistics ships.  Hell, an Atlas will spawn almost in the range of enemy guns, and Mules will almost always get picked off.  About the only ship that can consistently perform a retreat is the Tarsus, thanks to its full burn.
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Thaago

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2024, 11:56:11 AM »

Some logistics ships you can install safety overides and/or unstable injector on. Drams for example can be configured as 'blockade runners' that way and will usually get away clean. I'm not sure if a Colossus can get SO, but that would be one advantage over the Atlas which can't.
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Megas

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2024, 12:03:25 PM »

Some logistics ships you can install safety overides and/or unstable injector on. Drams for example can be configured as 'blockade runners' that way and will usually get away clean. I'm not sure if a Colossus can get SO, but that would be one advantage over the Atlas which can't.
With Civilian-Grade Hull, Colossus needs Military Subsystems to install SO (which then becomes a drain on some skills).
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Void Ganymede

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2024, 12:33:51 PM »

The real question is why I can't convert Atlas hulls to Mk2s myself.

Pirates do it in a cave with a pile of scrap, why can't we?!
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Brainwright

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2024, 02:06:49 PM »

Some logistics ships you can install safety overides and/or unstable injector on. Drams for example can be configured as 'blockade runners' that way and will usually get away clean. I'm not sure if a Colossus can get SO, but that would be one advantage over the Atlas which can't.

Doesn't much matter how much SO these ships get if they get surrounded by five SO frigates.  Same goes for mules.
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2024, 02:39:46 PM »

 If you play without save-scumming, then you need a strong fleet to defend your atlas, otherwise you are risking a LOT of cargo every time you pass through unfriendly/pirate territory.
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Thaago

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2024, 03:15:11 PM »

Some logistics ships you can install safety overides and/or unstable injector on. Drams for example can be configured as 'blockade runners' that way and will usually get away clean. I'm not sure if a Colossus can get SO, but that would be one advantage over the Atlas which can't.

Doesn't much matter how much SO these ships get if they get surrounded by five SO frigates.  Same goes for mules.

I mean, maybe against a luddic path fleet that will come up, but shouldn't you easily have enough fleet to protect them from frigates as they escape with your own ships? They should be faster than any non-SO destroyer, especially if said destroyer has to skirmish. Even against an SO destroyer just keep it busy while the thing direct retreats.

There's a world of difference between 110 speed (always 0 flux boost) and 65/25 (if the shield goes on).
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Rusty Edge

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2024, 04:41:06 AM »

The real question is why I can't convert Atlas hulls to Mk2s myself.

Pirates do it in a cave with a pile of scrap, why can't we?!
That would be great as a "reward" for a pirate questline. Same for Luddic path. And maybe there could be a line of conversions you as a player could develop yourself.
It should probably require a modified heavy industry, a specialized industry item, or some entirely new industry structure.
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Brainwright

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2024, 08:56:01 AM »

I mean, maybe against a luddic path fleet that will come up, but shouldn't you easily have enough fleet to protect them from frigates as they escape with your own ships? They should be faster than any non-SO destroyer, especially if said destroyer has to skirmish. Even against an SO destroyer just keep it busy while the thing direct retreats.

There's a world of difference between 110 speed (always 0 flux boost) and 65/25 (if the shield goes on).

Just run this scenario in game.  I've run the luddic Venture alone, and it still gets surrounded by typical pirate fleets.

Civilian ships lack maneuverability and shields to such a degree that even a lone hound can easily overtax them.  I can understand salvage rigs being largely fodder, but the rest is a bit ridiculous.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2024, 04:36:59 AM »

Atlas canonically serves to replace all other ships unless you are running lesser fleets, which you don't as soon as you reach logical late game. At the point of which I would recommend to reset the playthrough.

I feel like it's fine the way it is. Maybe give Colossus slightly more utility... Durability and such. Increase the strength of the Buffalo shield... And buff Mercury and... Hercules? To be more viable as shuttles, either in their logistical strength or combat performance. As these feel to be the most useless ships in the game. Especially considering the ship limit.
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kaoseth

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2024, 09:27:12 AM »

An Atlas should be more efficient.  It's also slower, larger radar sig, and is less likely to escape combat if you retreat.   
 
The slow is an issue as effectively necessitates using a tug, which costs more supplies. 
 
Personally, I like using 5 Revenants for the stealth effect due to 5 stealth cruisers in your fleet.  Even if they are a bit expensive on supplies and fuel compared to other fuel and cargo haulers. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 09:32:30 AM by kaoseth »
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TK3600

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2024, 08:16:28 AM »

You guys are missing the point. Atlas can be more efficient. It just is too efficient. The jump is greater than collosus to buffalo. It was not the case until a buff a while ago.
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yajusenpai

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2024, 08:36:40 AM »

You guys are missing the point. Atlas can be more efficient. It just is too efficient. The jump is greater than collosus to buffalo. It was not the case until a buff a while ago.

So why a ship that is designed and dedicated to carry around huge amount of stuff can't be efficient at carrying around huge amount of stuff?

Also, if your nerf only make Atlas just slightly tiny bit better than Colossus maintenance-wise, why do it at all? What does it achieve?
Player are going to use the ship slot efficient cargo ship anyway.
Other than mildly annoy some player, your proposal achieve nothing.

I would say it first before you get any idea. You can't make Atlas less efficient than Colossus, not even equal. Otherwise Atlas lose any reason to exist in universe, in lore, in realism, in catalogue of shipbuilder and in consideration of any rational person.

Well, in a way Atlas IS less efficient than a Colossus. You don't pay less maintenance even if you fail to fill up your cargo. Thus create waste. But by utilizing multiple smaller ship, you can avoid this inefficiency by stowing away some of your cargo ship when the extra cargo space are not needed. So there are always a niche for smaller ship. (Maybe not for the player. After all not everyone need to haul back home ton and ton of scrap metal after high tea at Chicomoztoc.)

Extra: I think bringing hullmod to the discussion about a ship (unless it is built-in) is kinda stupid. It is not like you can't modding/S-modding a colossus like a Atlas.

Extra2: I know it is a old discussion, but you have no idea how heavy 40op or 1 S-mod toward something that doesn't help in combat on a combat ship.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 10:14:04 AM by yajusenpai »
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TK3600

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2024, 03:17:27 PM »

You guys are missing the point. Atlas can be more efficient. It just is too efficient. The jump is greater than collosus to buffalo. It was not the case until a buff a while ago.

So why a ship that is designed and dedicated to carry around huge amount of stuff can't be efficient at carrying around huge amount of stuff?

Also, if your nerf only make Atlas just slightly tiny bit better than Colossus maintenance-wise, why do it at all? What does it achieve?
Player are going to use the ship slot efficient cargo ship anyway.
Other than mildly annoy some player, your proposal achieve nothing.

I would say it first before you get any idea. You can't make Atlas less efficient than Colossus, not even equal. Otherwise Atlas lose any reason to exist in universe, in lore, in realism, in catalogue of shipbuilder and in consideration of any rational person.

Well, in a way Atlas IS less efficient than a Colossus. You don't pay less maintenance even if you fail to fill up your cargo. Thus create waste. But by utilizing multiple smaller ship, you can avoid this inefficiency by stowing away some of your cargo ship when the extra cargo space are not needed. So there are always a niche for smaller ship. (Maybe not for the player. After all not everyone need to haul back home ton and ton of scrap metal after high tea at Chicomoztoc.)

Extra: I think bringing hullmod to the discussion about a ship (unless it is built-in) is kinda stupid. It is not like you can't modding/S-modding a colossus like a Atlas.

Extra2: I know it is a old discussion, but you have no idea how heavy 40op or 1 S-mod toward something that doesn't help in combat on a combat ship.
Again, you are missing the point. I said I have no qualm making Atlas more efficient than Collosus. It is the increment of improvement being higher than buffalo to collosus. And even if it is same efficiency as Colossus, I would still pick Atlas for consume less slot for ship. Therefore, it is already kinda OP in stats, and S-mod is pushing it to be alot more powerful than it already is on paper.

On the argument of S-mod, if Colossus and Atlas are both S-modded, Atlas still benefit more. Atlas is the more efficient SP usage (end game buy it for life kind of ship) vs Colossus. Atlas stand to benefit from S-mod (multiplier being greater, more efficient). Atlas has more demand for S-mod (such as insulated engine, because colossus already become cruiser tier profile without the s-mod, no need to improve more when game picks top 5 biggest). Therefore I conclude when you even the odds by giving both S-mod, it still shift to Atlas's favor.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Is Atlas OP?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2024, 03:57:11 PM »

imo the solution is to nerf logistical mods getting super s-mod bonuses. Those make no sense considering they technically cost 15 op...

The lower s-mod bonuses of stuff like Efficiency Overhaul, the sensor thingy, Solar Shielding, etc. should stay as are. Obviously.

I mean, it's not like there are some extremely powerful options competing to be installed on civilian ships. It's just a really straightforward decision to built-in more cargo capacity.

ALSO, please decrease the cost of the surveying hullmod... And allow it to retain its bonus. This is one thing in the game that needs to be buffed in terms of logistics.

It's no way near as valuable as simply having more cargo capacity.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 04:14:17 PM by Killer of Fate »
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